Bakker XXXIII: When One Thread Dies One Must Learn To Love Another

[Larry of the Lawn]

And the banishing the wight/hell/whatever part:

Through dark water, Hell rises in the guise of a great graven seal, like a shield stamped with packed skulls and living faces, winding in fractal rings about the long-dead Nonman King. It pauses beneath the surface, its limbs languorous and submerged. Veins of blackness pulse up across the walls. It stares across the bourne, pondering the unspeakable, then raises its lips to kiss the inverted surface, and exhales the shriek and torment that is its air.

The others hear it only as horror, inborn and sourceless, as buried within them as they are buried in Cil-Aujas. Mimara turns to their sudden silence. In a moment of madness it seems that she can see their hearts through their caged breasts, that she can see the eyes open...

Achamian falls to his knees, clutching his chest. He looks to her in pleading horror. Lord Kosoter stumbles backward into the corridor. Some clutch their faces; others begin to shriek and scream. Soma stands riven. Sarl cackles and bawls, his eyes pinched into lines between red wrinkles.

"I can't seeeeee!" the crease-faced sergeant gibbers. "I-look-I-look-I-look..."The Unholy Seal rears glistening from the water, weeping strings of fire. It towers over them in leaning accusation. It roars, the sound so near, so ingrown that it seems they stand in the throat of a Demon-God. A voice claps through their souls, so loud it draws blood through the pores of their skin.

The Gates are no longer guarded.

Mimara is also on her knees, also shrieking, yet her fingers somehow find her purse, begin fumbling, pinching the Chorae that nearly killed the Wizard. She cringes beneath the looming aspect, a child beneath a collapsing city wall. She hugs her limbs against the piercing pleas of little mouths, the moaning masses of the damned...

And somehow lifts her Tear of God.

She knows not what she does. She knows only what she glimpsed in the slave chamber, that single slow heartbeat of light and revelation. She knows what she saw with the Judging Eye.

The Chorae burns as a sun in her fingers, making red wine of her hand and forearm, revealing the shadow of her bones, and yet drawing the eye instead of rebuking it, a light that does not blind.

"I guard them!" she weeps, standing frail beneath the white-bleached Seal. "I hold the Gates!"

TJE, ebook pg 385 ch 16 Cil-Aujas

[sologdin]

kickass. thanks!

[lokisnow]

After reading all that, I thought they were the womb of God?

And spinning off that chorae are wombs, I have this additional thought:

That's what happened to the cunoroi females.

The inchoroi made a chorae out of the wombs of cunoroi women. Every chorae originates from a particular person.

Chorae first appear after the inchoroi inhume all the females iirc.

And if chorae are tears of God and the judging eye is the eye of the unborn and chorae are manufactured from wombs that are the gateway by which the unborn enters the world...

***

Tantalizing alternative thought, if chorae represent the folded space of meaning, do they have a relationship to the folded space of the barricades?

[sologdin]

the unborn enters the world...

that's a lot of tleilaxu dunitude there. next you'll try to tell us that the RSB has some kinda drug manufactured from evil annelids that increases wit and longevity but discolors the skin. or that some of RSB's characters are human computers. or that RSB has spacefaring post-humans who try to manipulate local religious beliefs to their benefit. pshaw!

[lokisnow]

The sologdin must awaken, Father.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

So just finished WLW, picked up so much more. So there are two things that I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around, and they tie in together.

First the meeting with the Nonmen, they say the are sent by Nil'gaccas. And what I gather from Cleric's words, and I believe his character is reliable, hasnt been the Nonman king now in some time. He's an Erratic a wayward, and I gotta believe him and Captain are manipulated by Kelhuss. He says that Instinbereth has gone over to the Consult. Kelhuss has to know this. So is he just trying to set them up? Its just a farce right?

Second, in honoring Niom, a son, daughter and enemy. Serwe, Lil Moe, Soorwel. But, Kelhuss proclaimed Soorwel a believer-king, so how is he NOW considered a enemy. Does Kelhuss see through Yatwer's protection and manipulating the situation?

Also, Kelhuss IMHO, knows he's gonna die, he's preparing Proyas. But, is he trying to grasp the Absolute or save the world? I don't see him trying to shut out the gods. Maybe remove them and become the God of Gods, not shutout the world. Do you think Kelhuss believes himself damned? I don't.

[unJon]

I forgot how packed with revelation the scene is where Mim inverts the chorae.

1) The Chorae has a Mark. What should we make of that?

2) "And yet she stares and stares, like a boy gazing at some remarkable bug. " Is this a reference to Kelmomas and the beetle? Mimara is about to find God through the Chorae so maybe lil Kel found a God through his bug.

3) Mimara actually experiences damnation as a sorceror that was killed by a chorae. "The suffering begins. The pain..." "The clubs begin falling, and her body rebels down to its rooted bowel, gagging at memories of salt. "

4) Damnation seems to really suck and Mimara is left with just a little "nub" of self to experience it. Is this what the Inverse Fire is like?

5) God then rescues Mimara from damnation. (!!!) Is this a clue than Fanimry is correct?

6) Mimara's experience of God contradicts Kelhus's explanation of the Psukhe and Gnosis re: timber of voice. "A voice rises, a voice without word or tone, drowsy with compassion..." God's voice is without word or tone (!!).

7) The picture of God here is much closer to Moe's version than Kel's. God sleeps, Moe said. "Drowsy with compassion." Kel's version of God accepts obscenity as a viable means justified by the end of stopping the Apocalypse. Does the Judging Eye God really seem at all like what Kel claims? No.

[Wise Fool]

Second, in honoring Niom, a son, daughter and enemy. Serwe, Lil Moe, Soorwel. But, Kelhuss proclaimed Soorwel a believer-king, so how is he NOW considered a enemy. Does Kelhuss see through Yatwer's protection and manipulating the situation?

Either

1. Kellhus does indeed see through Yatwer's protection (and thus Sorweel's intentions) and was probably planning on Sorweel to be part of the Niom for quite some time before.

Yatwer's protection works as far as making Sorweel from Kellhus's all-knowing, all-penetrating insights... but Sorweel is still considered an enemy, even if he's merely the son of a former enemy, for the purposes of this pact.

Sorweel actually -is- (or will be) a Believer, seduced by Kellhus and ultimately motivated to help him, and so is in that sense a "son" while Moe Jr. is an actual enemy.

[Happy Ent]

I finished a re-read of WLW myself last week. (Stunning book.)

I think we can agree that Kellhus knows that the Nonman embassy is false, because Kellhus knows that Nil’giccas is an erratic wandering the Three Seas.

So here is my analysis:

1. Kellhus knows that Ishterebinth sides with the Consult.

2. If Kellhus makes this knowledge public, the Nonmen will side visibly with the Consult when the Ordeal reaches Golgotterath.

3. If Kellhus pretends to be fooled by Ishterebinth, they will pretend to side with him. The Consult plan would then to have the Nonmen attack the Great Ordeal when it is unaware that a presumed ally is in fact an enemy.

4. Kellhus sidesteps the trap by constructing another trap: The Great Ordeal will pre-empt the treacherous Nonman attack and destroy the Nonman forces first.

In both (1) and (4), the Nonmen will have to be fought and vanquished. Scenario (4) has a higher chance of success because the Nonmen are surprised. Thus, (4) makes sense.

The Nonmen require the Niom. Kellhus is sufficiently callous to jeopardise Serwa for the Greater Good, but I assume she can actually help in an attack on Ishterebinth. (In any case, she’s very difficult to imprison due to her command of the Metagnostic cants. The original author of the Niom forgot to include the clause “but not if any of them is a teleporting atomic weapon.”) So: Serwa dead or Serwa taking out some bosses in Ishterebinth is worth scenario (4).

About Sorweel? It doesn’t really matter. I cannot but assume that Kellhus knows that Yatwer does have the power to do what she does; he does read up on stuff a lot. So he can’t trust his own face-reading skills 100%. Sorweel’s behaviour and history conforms exactly to what Kellhus ought to expect from Yatwer. It makes sense for him to play along with it. And Sorweel fits the requirements of the Niom, so no matter how far Kellhus has thought this true, he’s doing the right thing.

Does Serwa understand any of this? It doesn’t matter, from Kellhus’s point of view. She may, however, have been instructed to wreak havoc in Ishterebinth at some sign. (Problem: telepathic communication requires both endpoints to know exactly where they are, so how does Kellhus talk to Serwa? Has he been to Ishterebinth in the preceding years already, to check out the guest rooms for exactly this purpose? We know he has tried to contact them for at least a decades; he should be able to zap from Momemn to Ishterebinth in a month, shouldn’t he? And it would have been extremely useful for minimising variables.)

[Hello World]

What do you make of the bit where the Nonman says they’re damned as “false men” and Kellhus concurs? If the Nonman is with the Consult should we assume that he knows about the Inchoroi’s “devious addition”? And if yes did he say that to test whether Kellhus--who claims to be the God--knows about that?

Ignoring that, my take on that whole exchange was that Kellhus did in fact show the Nonman something to make him change his mind on the alleged alliance with the Consult.

[.H.]

[crackpot]Couldn't it be possible that the Non-Men are attempting to play both sides against the middle though? In the sense that they know they can't defeat the Consult themselves, nor could they freely oppose Kellhus alone. However, once both are engaged with each other heavily, it will leave the Non-Men to either tip the scales in favor of the side that pleases them, or attempt to destroy a weakened version of both.

Thing is, knowing that Nil’giccas is an erratic, how reliable is what he says? I think we're meant to distrust him based off that label, but the twist would be that he's right in fact, wrong in details. Which would make sense, why would they reveal deep strategy to an erratic? In fact, they probably wanted Nil’giccas to know minor details, since he would no doubt spill the beans, it makes the false alliegance even more convincing.[/crackpot]

[Hello World]

I don’t think Nil’giccas is reliable, but not because he’s erratic. More because he’s in on the whole TTT/Golden Path/Dune/Foundation/Seswatha/Mandate/Dûnyain feminine/Moënghus/or whatever you call it. The whole thing might have even been his idea.

Basically Kellhus thinks that he’s been using Nil all along when he’s merely walking the path that Nil and Seswatha set for him 2000 years prior.

[Happy Ent]

However, once both are engaged with each other heavily, it will leave the Non-Men to either tip the scales in favor of the side that pleases them, or attempt to destroy a weakened version of both.

But the Nonmen’s ultimate goals are aligned with the Consult. If the Great Ordeal wins, they are still damned.

We need to assume that the Inchoroi and Shauriastas actually know what they’re doing. (Otherwise the whole conflict isn’t very interesting, because then it becomes clear whose side we should be on.)

So the goals of the Consult and the goals of the Nonmen are well aligned. There were some misunderstandings, eons ago, having to do with ethics and disgust and so on. But these, largely aesthetic, differences have eroded over time. By now, most Nonmen are fed up with life and prepare for a long trek back, to what would be Valinor in Tolkien’s universe. The problem is, Valinor is messed up, Mandos is actually a sick bastard who will torture you for eternity. The only alternative, however remote, is the Consult plan. As the millennia have passed, this plan has become increasingly acceptable to the Nonmen, who no longer find obscenity quite so revolting.

Thus, Nonmen logically side with the Consult, having made the same inference that Kellhus assumed Moënghus would make.

It would be very difficult for Kellhus to convince the Nonmen that he is actually right: that he has an alternative solution to the problem of damnation. We, as readers, are not privy to this solution. There may not even be one: Kellhus may indeed be an instrument of the God, and his purpose may indeed be to destroy the Consult so that everything can continue to unfold according to the designs of that God, including the reality of damnation. (As a reader, I’d like that outcome best. It’d be very refreshing.)

But for that to work, Kellhus has to signal to Ishterebinth that he knows what he’s doing. He has actually been to the Outside and had a chance to analyse the reality of damnation first hand. Yet he still goes against the Consult! So, from the Nonman point of view (as from the reader’s), he must know something. Maybe he’s worth listening to after all? Maybe he does hold a promise of bliss in the afterlife?

[.H.]

But the Nonmen’s ultimate goals are aligned with the Consult. If the Great Ordeal wins, they are still damned.

We need to assume that the Inchoroi and Shauriastas actually know what they’re doing. (Otherwise the whole conflict isn’t very interesting, because then it becomes clear whose side we should be on.)

So the goals of the Consult and the goals of the Nonmen are well aligned. There were some misunderstandings, eons ago, having to do with ethics and disgust and so on. But these, largely aesthetic, differences have eroded over time. By now, most Nonmen are fed up with life and prepare for a long trek back, to what would be Valinor in Tolkien’s universe. The problem is, Valinor is messed up, Mandos is actually a sick bastard who will torture you for eternity. The only alternative, however remote, is the Consult plan. As the millennia have passed, this plan has become increasingly acceptable to the Nonmen, who no longer find obscenity quite so revolting.

Thus, Nonmen logically side with the Consult, having made the same inference that Kellhus assumed Moënghus would make.

First, your reading comprehension is immeasurably better than mine. In addition, I have not been able to do a reread since WLW came out, so I am no doubt missing a bunch. However, I agree with your point absolutely.

It would be very difficult for Kellhus to convince the Nonmen that he is actually right: that he has an alternative solution to the problem of damnation. We, as readers, are not privy to this solution. There may not even be one: Kellhus may indeed be an instrument of the God, and his purpose may indeed be to destroy the Consult so that everything can continue to unfold according to the designs of that God, including the reality of damnation. (As a reader, I’d like that outcome best. It’d be very refreshing.)

But for that to work, Kellhus has to signal to Ishterebinth that he knows what he’s doing. He has actually been to the Outside and had a chance to analyse the reality of damnation first hand. Yet he still goes against the Consult! So, from the Nonman point of view (as from the reader’s), he must know something. Maybe he’s worth listening to after all? Maybe he does hold a promise of bliss in the afterlife?

IIRC, don't the Non-Men take a particular interest in the heads of the chiprang Kellhus wears? I may have intented such a scene in my head. Perhpas that is a clue to them that Kellhus might well be more than they expected, i.e. support what you say, in the sense that he has been, seen, and "conquered" the Outside? In that case, since there is a (probably small, but still real) chance that Kellhus offers them "real" salvation, wouldn't it make sense not to pick a horse just yet? Play both sides until they know more of which offers the better solution?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

First, your reading comprehension is immeasurably better than mine. In addition, I have not been able to do a reread since WLW came out, so I am no doubt missing a bunch. However, I agree with your point absolutely.

IIRC, don't the Non-Men take a particular interest in the heads of the chiprang Kellhus wears? I may have intented such a scene in my head. Perhpas that is a clue to them that Kellhus might well be more than they expected, i.e. support what you say, in the sense that he has been, seen, and "conquered" the Outside? In that case, since there is a (probably small, but still real) chance that Kellhus offers them "real" salvation, wouldn't it make sense not to pick a horse just yet? Play both sides until they know more of which offers the better solution?

Yes, they take a interest in the chiprang. Also, a good point that the Nonmen might have been swayed by Kelhuss. In that scene the Nin dude asks to touch Kelhuss, I guess to confirm he's indeed not a demon. But, it left me also with the feeling that the Nonman was truly touched by whatever he felt/saw (can't remember exactly), but when he leaves he bows further than he bows when he comes in.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Oh, also on the theory that Moe=Meppa, after my reread its very convincing. No one truly knows who Meppa is. Fanayal say something along the lines of "He was sent to me by the Solitary God." He also says that Meppa can't remember who he even is. Also, in an interview somewhere, Bakker was asked who was his new favorite character to write about......Meppa.

[Madness]

I believe that is on one of his blogposts somewhere, MSJ. Also, nearly positive he says Malowebi.

EDIT: TPB Comment

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Thanks Madness, I stand corrected.

[sologdin]

so, malowebi = meppa? then who is cnaiur?

[unJon]

so, malowebi = meppa? then who is cnaiur?

Sorweel