Might Lemore be Wenda?

[Mikkel]

imo, Wenda seeking out Myles Toyne on her own, makes more sense than her being in contact with Illyrio and Varys. The Golden Company is probably not that difficult to find... it's more likely that when Varys and Illyrio started looking for 'recruits' to raise fAegon, and create a plausible back story, they contacted Myles to deliver them Jon Connington and Myles did.

Wenda might have been send along because of her being a woman, having a bit of training as a septa, being used to live the rough life, and being a westerosi exile, too.

Once again I find myself in complete agreement.

LF, Varys and Illyrio are not behind everything, but they do understand how to use the pieces that are on the board, even if they haven't put them there. If Lemore is Wenda, then her having travelled to Essos and the Golden Company under her own power and for her own reasons makes sense to me.

[Hangover of the Morning]

This has always been by far my favourite Septa Lemore theory, despite the zero textual evidence to back it up. It's one of those "wouldn't it be cool ifs" that I'd love to be true but sadly don't think the chances are very high.

I would have thought that if Lemore = Wenda, George would have given s a hint by now, e.g. Jaime recollecting how he and Arthur encountered pregnant Wenda during the KB hunt down and decided to let her go/or failed to capture her etc.

Even if true, I don't see how it could be particularly significant for the story (particularly for an average reader who barely remembers Wenda and knows nothing about the Toyne family history) compared to her being just a soiled septa with a checkered past.

[Ygrain]

This has always been by far my favourite Septa Lemore theory, despite the zero textual evidence to back it up. It's one of those "wouldn't it be cool ifs" that I'd love to be true but sadly don't think the chances are very high.

I would have thought that if Lemore = Wenda, George would have given s a hint by now, e.g. Jaime recollecting how he and Arthur encountered pregnant Wenda during the KB hunt down and decided to let her go/or failed to capture her etc.

Even if true, I don't see how it could be particularly significant for the story (particularly for an average reader who barely remembers Wenda and knows nothing about the Toyne family history) compared to her being just a soiled septa with a checkered past.

Actually, you might want to check the linked thread - there is a sort of textual buildup for Wenda's appearance, the most conspicuous being that we actually get the funny story of her branding her captives' asses twice, once from Merrett, once in Jaime's PoV, and it's certainly not that important to grant repetition.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Actually, you might want to check the linked thread - there is a sort of textual buildup for Wenda's appearance, the most conspicuous being that we actually get the funny story of her branding her captives' asses twice, once from Merrett, once in Jaime's PoV, and it's certainly not that important to grant repetition.

I read and contributed to the linked thread in the past and I am well aware that Wenda has been mentioned quite a few times in the novels. It is just not nearly enough to make me think that we should expect her reappearance (other than some small cameo) and that she'll become a significant player in the current story.

The series spans nearly 5000 pages. There's been dozens of events/rumours/historical facts that were mentioned more than once, yet have no significance other than to enrich the story and make it feel more real.

As I mentioned above, I love the theory and hope it's true but the natural skeptic in me thinks that it's unlikely. IMO what happens to Wenda is on par with "Olenna's mysterious Targaryen betrothed " (I know we know now) or "Lewyn Martell's paramour". All cool little mysteries for hardcore fans but in the scheme or things they mean very little.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

This is my favourite Lemore Theory.

If Wenda was say 20 when the KWB were defeated, she would have been born in 261, making her 39 when Tyrion meets her. She has had a baby, I think the idea of her being with child when Ser Arthur et al saw to their defeat is perfect explanation as to how she got away. which would make her child 18/19, old enough to now have their own life, when we meet Lemore she is not with her child, but that doesn't mean her child was not with her until recently. If it was a son, maybe he joined the GC himself. and if a daughter maybe they sent her away once her and fAegon were getting to "that" age. I doubt anyone wanted to risk a messy romance/pregnancy when fAegon's hand was so vital to his success. No matter what happens if Illyrio & Varys would want to make the best most strategic match possible for him. So Wenda/Lemore's daughter needs to be out of the reach of temptation, In which case I'd guess she is at Illyrio's manse in the guise of a maid. Or maybe she got married to some one in the GC?

Or maybe her kid died?

Anyway its explainable that her child is no longer by her side at the age it would be if she was pregnant in 281.

I think it likely she was supposed to become a Septa but thought fuck that and did a runner, I love the idea of her being a Cafferen. I guess if she is Wenda Jaime would know, right. So if/when she turns up in Westeros we should find out.

Also I admit I love that this ties into my own predictions for Jaime & Brienne. Whom I think are going to reflect various other past events and people.

1: Jaime started his career fighting a band of outlaws and I think he ends it leading one

2: I think Rhaegar & Lyanna were secretly married , And I think Brienne & Jaime will be too. I think it will be a heart tree wedding and this will be a reflection of how R&L did it.

3: House Targaryen were all but wiped out leaving Jon as a secret hidden heir. I think House Lannister's main branch will also be almost entirely severed leaving Briennes child a secret hidden in plain sight heir. As I think after Jaime dies she will hastily wed Hyle and retreat to Tarth claiming her pregnancy as his child.

4: If Wenda = Lemore and she got away after the KWB were smashed due to a pregnancy I think this will be reflected in Brienne's own survival after the BWB get defeated.

So yea I love this idea, selfishly because it feeds my own theory. lol. But also because I think it is a good explanation of who Lemore is, the best explanation I've heard yet in fact.

ETA: Also I think perhaps we have been told about how Septa Lemore isn't really a Septa but has the training already. Allayne's back story is that she was sent to be a Septa by her mother but that she changed her mind. And Peytr told Sansa to read up on the 7 pointed star and act a bit Pious in order to convince people the story is true. So we know that Septa's train prior to taking their vows. Like Novices in a nunnery. yes? So my guess is Lemore originally was supposed to become a Septa but decided she didn't want to and if she is Wenda it makes sense this is a good reason for a High Born girl to run away. And I think Wenda was a highborn girl.

[Greymoon]

Lady Wenda of House Cafferen? The sigil of House Cafferen is two white fawns. Like Jon Connigton, Lord Cafferen was a Targaryen loyalist from the Stormlands, he eventually changed allegiance, though. House Cafferen is mentioned in SoS, Davos, chapter 36. House Toyne was also a house in the Stormlands...

Lord Cafferen was originally a Targaryen loyalist during Robert's Rebellion. He was captured at the Battle of Summerhall where Houses Fell and Grandison had intended to join their forces to his, but Lord Robert Baratheon beat them one by one. He eventually came over to Robert's side and was killed at the Battle of Ashford fighting for him. Lord Randyll Tarly cut off his head and sent it to King Aerys II Targaryen.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Cafferen

[Mithras]

If Lemore is not Mellario, then Wenda is my next favorite candidate for Lemore. In any case, I am 99.9% sure that Lemore is not Ashara Dayne or Tyene's mother or Serra.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Where is Lemore now, anyway? Did she cross the narrow sea with Connington and the Golden Company?

I believe she's at Griffin's Roost with Aegon or fAegon, whatever your particular thoughts on that are.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Did someone bring up the Jeyne Swann thing yet? Barristan rescued her and, conveniently, her septa from the Brotherhood. Seems to me that it could've been how Wenda escaped, by disguising as a septa, with the connivance of Lady Jeyne. Since we know Ravella Swann supports the BwB, maybe sympathy for outlaws runs in the Swann family. Plus, they're both Stormlanders, if we go with the Cafferen theory

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

imo, Wenda seeking out Myles Toyne on her own, makes more sense than her being in contact with Illyrio and Varys. The Golden Company is probably not that difficult to find... it's more likely that when Varys and Illyrio started looking for 'recruits' to raise fAegon, and create a plausible back story, they contacted Myles to deliver them Jon Connington and Myles did.

I agree with this. I don't think there was any reason for her to be in touch with Varys and/or Illyrio before the Aegon plot. I also agree that Myles (who is now dead and took whatever secrets he had with him) was probably the original point of contact with the GC when it came to Aegon and is the one who recommended using Connington. Which is funny given that Connington thinks highly of Toyne and considers him a friend, when, if this is true, Toyne was the one who told Varys and Illyrio how good of a patsy JonCon would be.

Actually, you might want to check the linked thread - there is a sort of textual buildup for Wenda's appearance, the most conspicuous being that we actually get the funny story of her branding her captives' asses twice, once from Merrett, once in Jaime's PoV, and it's certainly not that important to grant repetition.

I'm thinking the branding is going to be the "aha" moment, if we're right about this. Lemore brands a captive or makes an offhand remark about branding, and that's how we'd "know." It's so specific a thing, and to mention it twice? Hmm.

[Greymoon]

Did someone bring up the Jeyne Swann thing yet? Barristan rescued her and, conveniently, her septa from the Brotherhood. Seems to me that it could've been how Wenda escaped, by disguising as a septa, with the connivance of Lady Jeyne. Since we know Ravella Swann supports the BwB, maybe sympathy for outlaws runs in the Swann family. Plus, they're both Stormlanders, if we go with the Cafferen theory

Lol. I'll go with that!

A lot of the Brotherhood back story is mentioned in SoS. House Cafferen, is also mentioned in SoS.

Guess who else we meet in SoS? indeed ;) Ravella's great-aunt is a septa, too... In all honestly I'd not be surprised if House Swann and House Cafferen were somewhat related, considering they are, as you said, both Stormlander houses.....Lady Jeyne and her 'septa' could have been cousins for all we know, and Barristan Selmy is just the sort to be fooled by 'innocent' looking ladies.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Did someone bring up the Jeyne Swann thing yet? Barristan rescued her and, conveniently, her septa from the Brotherhood. Seems to me that it could've been how Wenda escaped, by disguising as a septa, with the connivance of Lady Jeyne. Since we know Ravella Swann supports the BwB, maybe sympathy for outlaws runs in the Swann family. Plus, they're both Stormlanders, if we go with the Cafferen theory

Good detail. As you say, that might actually be how Wenda made her escape. The details of the "rescue" are super vague so it's hard to guess, but maybe Jeyne was bait (if the Swanns were complicit), an attempt to lure in the Kingsguard and ambush them or something. It backfired, Barristan killed Toyne and Jeyne and Wenda had to concoct a cover story about Wenda being her septa.

I also totally buy the idea that Arthur would have taken pity on Wenda if she was pregnant, and let her go on the condition that she left the country. There are a lot of ways for this to have unfolded that make good sense.

This may be reading into it too much, but there are two swans in the Swann sigil, a black one and a white one, battling each other. Perhaps it's a meta nod to there being two different "types" of Swanns: white, "pure" ones like Balon and black "mischievous" ones like Ravella and, maybe, Jeyne.

[Lykos]

I like the idea that Wenda escaped by being rescued as Jeyne's Septa. The Swann's seem to make sure that they have an egg in every basket.

My problem with Lemore's contact to Varys and Illyrio wasn't so much wether it was established before or after Wenda left Westeros, but the amount of trust they seem to put into each other. Of course if we follow the idea that Wenda had a child at about Young Griff's age, Illyrio could have taken them in so that he'd have a companion - maybe the kid died of the grey plague as Serra did - that would explain Lemore's emotional reaction when Tyrion was saved after saving Young Griff and also her attachment to YG.

Here is why I think that she's very loyal to Illyrio and Young Griff.
The Lost Lord, Dance.

“The plan was to reveal Prince Aegon only when we reached Queen Daenerys,” Lemore was saying.
“That was when we believed the girl was coming west. Our dragon queen has burned that plan to ash, and thanks to that fat fool in Pentos, we have grasped the she-dragon by the tail and burned our fingers to the bone.”
“Illyrio could not have been expected to know that the girl would choose to remain at Slaver’s Bay.”
“No more than he knew that the Beggar King would die young, or that Khal Drogo would follow him into the grave. Very little of what the fat man has anticipated has come to pass.” Griff slapped the hilt of his long-sword with a gloved hand.

“I have danced to the fat man’s pipes for years, Lemore. What has it availed us? The prince is a man grown. His time is—” ...

“Bring the boy,” Griff told Lemore. “See that he’s ready.”
“As you say,” she answered, unhappily.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Did someone bring up the Jeyne Swann thing yet? Barristan rescued her and, conveniently, her septa from the Brotherhood. Seems to me that it could've been how Wenda escaped, by disguising as a septa, with the connivance of Lady Jeyne. Since we know Ravella Swann supports the BwB, maybe sympathy for outlaws runs in the Swann family. Plus, they're both Stormlanders, if we go with the Cafferen theory

Yup, this is a great plausible scenario.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I like the idea that Wenda escaped by being rescued as Jeyne's Septa. The Swann's seem to make sure that they have an egg in every basket.

My problem with Lemore's contact to Varys and Illyrio wasn't so much wether it was established before or after Wenda left Westeros, but the amount of trust they seem to put into each other. Of course if we follow the idea that Wenda had a child at about Young Griff's age, Illyrio could have taken them in so that he'd have a companion - maybe the kid died of the grey plague as Serra did - that would explain Lemore's emotional reaction when Tyrion was saved after saving Young Griff and also her attachment to YG.

Here is why I think that she's very loyal to Illyrio and Young Griff.

The Lost Lord, Dance.

That is interesting. I suppose Lemore would have had had some contact with Illyrio (and perhaps Varys too) when she was being "recruited." So she might know him better or, as you suggest, have other reasons to defend him.

I think the key point in all of this is that Connington is lower on the totem pole of intelligence than he realizes. He thinks he's in charge, thinks he doesn't need Lemore's approval, and yet I get the distinct sense that part of why she's there is to keep an eye on him, even if he doesn't know it.

[Mithras]

That is interesting. I suppose Lemore would have had had some contact with Illyrio (and perhaps Varys too) when she was being "recruited." So she might know him better or, as you suggest, have other reasons to defend him.

I think the key point in all of this is that Connington is lower on the totem pole of intelligence than he realizes. He thinks he's in charge, thinks he doesn't need Lemore's approval, and yet I get the distinct sense that part of why she's there is to keep an eye on him, even if he doesn't know it.

Yes, I agree that Lemore seems like she is in a closer circle than JonCon. And she seems to show some sentiment to fAegon similar to Illyrio, though not as much as like him.

[Lykos]

I think the key point in all of this is that Connington is lower on the totem pole of intelligence than he realizes. He thinks he's in charge, thinks he doesn't need Lemore's approval, and yet I get the distinct sense that part of why she's there is to keep an eye on him, even if he doesn't know it.

That's it. I got the vibe that Lemore was with Aegon before Connington, well I think she's definitely his senior in terms of understanding the operation. Lemore is the unknown quantity in an otherwise pretty shabby (by Varys' standards) plan. The alternative is, that "Aegon" is just a bonus for Varys and something else is more important to him (my personal Varys wants to destroy Targaryens and Blackfyres in vengance crackpot.).

ETA: I almost forgot Haldon "The Icy Cunt" Halfmaester with the northern looks and humor as another unknown quantity.

[Mithras]

That's it. I got the vibe that Lemore was with Aegon before Connington, well I think she's definitely his senior in terms of understanding the operation. Lemore is the unknown quantity in an otherwise pretty shabby (by Varys' standards) plan. The alternative is, that "Aegon" is just a bonus for Varys and something else is more important to him (my personal Varys wants to destroy Targaryens and Blackfyres in vengance crackpot.).

Varys told Kevan that a septa has been teaching fAegon since he is old enough to understand the Faith. If that is true, it means that JonCon is senior to Lemore because he met fAegon at 5 and it is too early to start learning the Faith at that age.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I agree with this thread, but I don't think she's confabulated with Varys or Illyrio more than Haldon or Duck. They all are in hiding and that's why they have recruited them. Because they had nothing to lose but a lot to win :dunno:

In fact, why is Lemore suspected but not Haldon? Do we know where he comes from? Why he didn't become a full Maester? Yet, unlike Lemore, Jon trusts him with important information. He's right there with him in the Griffin's Roost and he's in charge of sending ravens and letters. Why would I&V send him a woman he so obviously won't confide mostly of his actions when he most likely would trust a man with the knowledge of a Maester, which is exactly what he's doing? :dunno:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Varys told Kevan that a septa has been teaching fAegon since he is old enough to understand the Faith. If that is true, it means that JonCon is senior to Lemore because he met fAegon at 5 and it is too early to start learning the Faith at that age.

That doesn't mean she only met Aegon when he was old enough to learn about the Faith. It means she started teaching him when he was old enough.