AGOT Reread- Catelyn

[The Adequate Jon]

Two quotes jumped out at me on this reread that may be possible foreshadowing. The first was Ned talking about Rickon: "He must learn to face his fears. He will not be three forever." It's also interesting that he talked to Bran about fear and bravery in the previous chapter.

The second was Catelyn: "There are darker things beyond the Wall." (darker than Mance Rayder) This is obvious foreshadowing. It's interesting that a Southerner says it while Ned says that she's been listening to too many of Old Nan's stories.

[Ealasaid]

so after reading Bran's chapter I was confused as to why people questioned Ned for not examining Gared's desertion more closely, but apparently I had forgoten about his conversation with Cat in her POV. I'm bothered by the contradiction that Ned assumes wildlings drove Gared "half-mad" yet his next comment says the wildlings are "...nothing for us to fear." This doesn't seem to be his character. Can anyone explain this?

I believe that Ned, like a great many others (no pun intended), do not realize the great numbers of the Wildings on the move. If Ned knew that they were converging and looking for something, he might have some insight as many Starks have served as Commander of the NW, and we might see some trepidation on his part. However, I believe Ned has a false sense of sercurity, and "Winter Is Coming," are becoming rote.

U

[Wired_Irony]

Catelyn (II)

Introduced: Maester Luwin* (Winterfell’s maester, delivered all of Catelyn’s children).

First Mentioned: Ser Arthur Dayne* (The Sword of the Morning, deadliest of King Aerys’ seven Kingsguard, slain by Eddard Stark at the Tower of Joy, possessed the greatsword ‘Dawn’ [supposedly forged from a fallen star]);

Ashara Dayne* (sister of Ser Arthur Dayne, supposedly killed herself by leaping off the battlements of Starfall).

Ned and Catelyn are in bed together discussing his appointment as Hand of the King. Catelyn insists that Ned take the position, as it might be seen as opposition by the King. Ned swears that Robert would never harm him or any of his family, but Catelyn insists that Ned knew the man, but did not know the King. Plus, she thought it was a high honor for the King to request Sansa’s hand in marriage to his son Joffrey. A knock at the door brings Maester Luwin, who shows them a box left on his table which contained a lens from Myr, but also had a false bottom. Inside was a message sealed and for Catelyn’s eyes only. The letter was written in code by Lysa Arryn, and contained a warning as well as Lysa’s conviction that Jon Arryn was murdered by the Lannisters and the Queen. She burns the letter. Catelyn tells Ned that now even more, he must take the appointment as Hand and learn the truth. Ned notes the parallel of how his father went south to answer the summons of a king, and never returned.

Ned states that he would take Bran, Sansa and Arya south with him. Catelyn doesn’t want him to take Bran. Ned had been 8 when his father sent him to foster at the Eyrie, near the same age as Bran, and thus settles the argument. When Jon Snow’s name is mentioned, Catelyn wants him gone from Winterfell. She could understand Ned fathering a bastard during the war, and even him seeing to the child’s needs, but to take Jon with him to Winterfell and name him "son" rankled Cat like nothing else. She remembers the rumors that the mother was Lady Ashara Dayne, whom Ned met when he returned her brother Ser Arthur Dayne’s sword ‘Dawn’ to her. When Cat confronted him, he frightened her for the only time, telling her, "Never ask me about Jon. He is my blood, and that is all you need to know". Maester Luwin prevents a heated argument, by telling Ned that his brother Benjen wishes to take Jon as a member of the Night’s Watch. There is great honor in serving on the Wall, and even a bastard may rise high in the Night’s Watch. Ned agrees that Jon should join the black brothers.

[Tarthking]

CATELYN 2:

Overall, I liked this chapter a lot. Catelyn and Ned started feeling more real to me when I read this chapter the first time. The odd formality in the relationship disappears here, with Catelyn's comment about false modesty in front of Luwin.

The first paragraph to this chapter fascinates me. Martin very intentionally likens Catelyn's room to a heart. The scalding waters from the hot springs are rushing through the walls "like blood through a man's body." Catelyn's room was the hottest. Already, Catelyn is linked with heart imagery.

Once again, we see that Catelyn is much more politically astute than Ned. She understands the implications of Robert's offers quickly and effortlessly. Martin even suggests a reason for this: Ned, as the second son, might not have been fully trained in politics by his father.

On reread, I noticed how much the secret letter has Littlefinger written all over it. As Catelyn notices, the letter was "carefully planned, cleverly hidden." We know now that Lysa is neither careful nor clever - there is no way she would have come up with that letter on her own.

[The Adequate Jon]

Back to Cat I:

I was thinking about the timeline. They get a letter telling them of Jon Arryn's death and the king coming to Winterfell. Ned is worried that there isn't much time to prepare, but I would think they would have a couple a months before the king's party arrived unless the letter was sent when the king was already halfway there. But why wouldn't they send the letter as soon as Arryn died. Is Ned exaggerating a little bit here?

[Spring Bass]

I think Catelyn may have been manipulating Ned into going south. Not in a "bad Cersei" way, but just in an influential manner. For example, after quickly glancing at the letter, before even telling Ned about the contents, she runs to set it to burn. Why? She said it was the 'secret language' she and Lysa made up as girls, so why burn it immediately?

Notice, too, how she withholds comfort from Ned shortly after he hears that Jon Arryn is dead, only going to him when he decides he will go south. She even thinks something akin to 'just a little longer, for her children's sake.'

Other than that, it is the first scene of sexual intimacy in the book, and it reveals that Catelyn's and Ned's relationship is closer than what we've seen in the earlier chapter. She seems particularly bothered by being forced to stay behind in Winterfell, and not being able to 'have Ned in her arms' or something like that.

[oba]

I think Catelyn may have been manipulating Ned into going south. Not in a "bad Cersei" way, but just in an influential manner. For example, after quickly glancing at the letter, before even telling Ned about the contents, she runs to set it to burn. Why? She said it was the 'secret language' she and Lysa made up as girls, so why burn it immediately?

I never noticed that before. Good catch. I guess one explanation is that there's really no point in keeping it around. Best case, no one else can read it and it's just a bunch of parchment. Worst case, leave it lying it around and there's a chance (even if it's one in a million that it might fall into the wrong hands). I'm reminded of Roose Bolton's burning the book in ACoK. I guess what I'm saying is, once you've read it, it is no more than kindling.

As far as manipulating Ned to go south, she absolutely is. But, as you point out, it's more along the lines of using every argument available to try to make him see things her way.

Notice, too, how she withholds comfort from Ned shortly after he hears that Jon Arryn is dead, only going to him when he decides he will go south. She even thinks something akin to 'just a little longer, for her children's sake.

I think you might be getting your Jon's mixed up here. Catelyn tells Ned about Jon Arryn's death in her first chapter. She softens to see his pain when she mentions her own age when she was betrothed to Brandon as a comparison to Robert's offer of a marriage between Sansa and Joffrey.

"Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decrred, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son. She was about to go to him when the knock came at the door, loud and unexpected." AGOT, USPB, p. 60.

Later on, when they're arguing about what's going to happen to Jon Snow when Ned goes south. . .

"Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes." AGOT, USPB p. 66

[Spring Bass]

D'oh! Thanks Oba; let me check that again . . .

Aha! This is what I meant. After the whole comment about how Lysa says that Jon Arryn was murdered by the Lannisters, Ned says, "The South is a nest of adders I would rather avoid." Maester Luwin responds with "The Hand of the King has great power . . . " and so on and so forth.

Here's what I meant about Catelyn's gentle manipulation.

Ned glanced helplessly around the bedchamber. Catelyn's heart went out to him, but she knew she could not take him into her arms just then. First the victory must be won, for her children's sake.

Like I said, I think it's pretty clear that she is manipulating Ned to get him to go south, so as to ensure that Sansa becomes potential queen. It's not necessary a bad manipulation, at least intentionally; she also thinks that going south will help him find out who Jon Arryn's killers were, and thus help him also.

One other thing I noticed. She clearly planned on going south to King's Landing with him and Sansa, and apparently did not even think about the fact that this would leave Robb solely in charge of the castle. Isn't that kind of odd? Especially since she shows strong reluctance to be separated from any of her other children, especially Bran.

Well, anyways, this is also the first time that we see that she has a particularly strong attachment to Bran. It certainly helps explain why she had a near-psychological breakdown at the thought of him dying without her there.

[Donnachaidh]

I wouldn't call what Catelyn did gentle manipulation. It might have been subtle, but it was also brutal. It is this chapter that began my dislike of Catelyn. Catelyn I being the only one of her chapters in which I liked her.

I thought it was fair that her manipulation caused her some pain of her own.

"I could not bear it"Catelyn said trembling.

"You must" he said.

Call me cruel but I get great satisfaction out of those two lines. It also shows us something of the hardness and sterness of the North. And the fact that Ned is the Lord, and while Catelyn may try and manipulate her husband, and even get her way in somethings. Ultimately she has to obey her husbands choices. Which kinda makes me sad that Ned never showed more backbone on the subject matter of Jon.

[Spring Bass]

It wasn't necessarily nasty. Perhaps rather selfish on her part, since for all she knows Ned going south to find out Jon Arryn's murder may attract the ire of the Lannisters, with all that entails. But at the same time, it's not wholly self-centered; Ned probably wouldn't find out if the Lannisters were planning something if he didn't go south. Plus, she thought she would be there with him.

Like I said, it seems kind of odd. Was she planning on taking all the children south with her, and leaving her 14-year son the duty of managing the castle and lands? She certainly seemed reluctant to part with her children, or at least her children other than Robb.

[DBaron]

Somethings I noticed after rereading this chapter:

There seem to be alot of give and take between Eddard and Catelyn in this chapter. I think that this is represenative of their relationship. They contrast each other, but the seem to feed of it too? At one point Cat is in control of the events, then later Ned takes control. At first he expresses fear and doubt, later it is her turn. At one point he has no problem being naked and she covers up, later it is reversed. At one point she goes to him (or attempts too) later he goes to her. Eddard express his resentment toward Brandon, later she does the same for Jon. In the end they both win and lose. Tarthking pointed out that the imagary of Cats bedroom sustains imagery of a heart. I never noticed that. Heart makes me think of passion, and heat, so I take that there is some sort of fire and ice dynamic between them. His words at times are icy to her.

Eddard says "The others take both of you" to Luwin and Cat. Both die. (One sorta comes back though).

The lens is of course symbolic, we are told as much, but it is ironic that it does the opposite.

one question:

Catelyn says she is 'lighting a fire', when she goes to burn the message. Foreshadowing of the war correct?

[The Adequate Jon]

At one point Catelyn thinks about the direwolf killed by the stag, and that it means that Ned must obey the king and become his hand. Hindsight being 20/20, we know that it means the opposite.

[oba]

Like I said, it seems kind of odd. Was she planning on taking all the children south with her, and leaving her 14-year son the duty of managing the castle and lands? She certainly seemed reluctant to part with her children, or at least her children other than Robb.

Interesting. I didn't find that part particularly odd at all.

I mean, Robb wouldn't have been there by himself "managing the castle and lands."

Ser Rodrik and Maester Luwin would have been there, as well. He's also 14, which, in this series is plenty old enough for Robb to serve as "the Stark in Winterfell" in his father's stead.

At one point Catelyn thinks about the direwolf killed by the stag, and that it means that Ned must obey the king and become his hand. Hindsight being 20/20, we know that it means the opposite.

Well, Catelyn senses, rightly, that it means there's danger surrounding Ned's relationship with Robert. Ned puts no stock in that, or any other, omen whatsoever.

Catelyn's the first to tell Ned that he knew Robert the man and not Robert the king.

[Spring Bass]

It seemed kind of odd to me because Ned thought Robb was too young to handle it all, that Robb needed Catelyn there to help him manage the affairs. Perhaps Ned was wrong, though; Robb seemed to handle at least the battle side of being Lord of Winterfell later on.

Catelyn says she is 'lighting a fire', when she goes to burn the message. Foreshadowing of the war correct?

That might be stretching it a bit. Still, why start a fire simply to consume a letter? Especially when it had just been mentioned that her chambers were particularly warm, which is why Ned, after sex, would go and throw open all the windows.

[Barba]

Still, why start a fire simply to consume a letter?

It's easy. So it dosen't get to the wrong hands. Yes, you will say that even if it does, it's 'coded' so noone would know what was it about. But they (Lannisters) would know that it was something, and (as far as Cat knows) Lannisters wouldn't have to guess much what was it about (because Cat thinks they DID killed Jon)

[oba]

It's easy. So it dosen't get to the wrong hands. Yes, you will say that even if it does, it's 'coded' so noone would know what was it about. But they (Lannisters) would know that it was something, and (as far as Cat knows) Lannisters wouldn't have to guess much what was it about (because Cat thinks they DID killed Jon)

That's what I said.

I mean, even if you're confident no one else can decode it, why hang onto it and potentially give them an opportunity to try? It's not like it's a memento or that Catelyn and Ned need it as a reminder.

Catelyn, thinks to herself, "Now, why didn't I hang onto that note Lysa sent me? I know it was something important, but for the life of me I just can't remember. . ."

[DBaron]

Cat didn't have to burn the letter right away though. She could have held on to it for a few days before deciding what to do with it. She could have shown it to Ned. She didnt even have to burn it, if she wanted it destroyed. She could have ripped it up, gave it Luwin to destroy, eaten it (silly I know), but whatever the point is there was a lot of different things she could do with it.

I think the reason she decided to get rid of it right away and burn it right away was because it was A) dramatic and it works on different levels, and C) makes sense. The letter was the event that ultimately pushes Ned into going south. Until then the matter wasn't decided. We all know what happens after that, so having Catelyn say "I'm lighting a fire" has more meanings than simply her stating she was lighting a fire. She could have just said she was burning the letter because she didnt want anyone else to read it, but that isnt much fun is it? Her sending ned down south is going to help to start a war and the events that lead ultimately to Neds and her demise. (And then, ironically, have her be brought back to life by Beric, a servant of Rholler, the fire god.) She is also going 'illuminate' if you will, the mystery of Jons death. Plus I still think there is some sort of fire and ice thing with them in this chapter, Ned cold, Cat hot, so it helps there. Plus it just makes sense to burn a message like that.

Anyway, it does seem odd that Catelyn is the one who is able to sense omens and Ned is not. Seems like it should be the other way around.

[Barba]

having Catelyn say "I'm lighting a fire" has more meanings than simply her stating she was lighting a fire.

That is true (good catch), but it dosen't mean that burning letter right away is useless or irational

[Spring Bass]

That is true (good catch), but it dosen't mean that burning letter right away is useless or irational

It's more unnecessary, rather than useless or irrational. Remember, this is before Bran's accident, so they have little reason to suspect that the letter will get in unfriendly hands, especially if the only people who have seen it are Master Luwin, Ned, and Cat.

[oba]

It's more unnecessary, rather than useless or irrational. Remember, this is before Bran's accident, so they have little reason to suspect that the letter will get in unfriendly hands, especially if the only people who have seen it are Master Luwin, Ned, and Cat.

As others have said, dramatic effect, possible symbolism, etc.

Burning it immediately also means that we don't spend any time speculating what happened to the letter (like, say, when we're re-reading the book for the umpteenth time )

Nope. It's presented. Cat reads it. It gets burned immediately and its usefulness to the plot (except for its contents) is over. No one's wondering if Maester Luwin gave it to Osha at the end of Book 2 because he may have figured out that Lysa and LF were in cahoots.