AGOT Reread- Catelyn

[Barba]

It's more unnecessary, rather than useless or irrational. Remember, this is before Bran's accident, so they have little reason to suspect that the letter will get in unfriendly hands, especially if the only people who have seen it are Master Luwin, Ned, and Cat.

It did happen before Bran was hurt, but it happened after Jon Arryn was killed. And he was like a father to Ned, and Cat, Cersei and Jamie know that. So it is kinda the same from that point. But my opinnion (and I hope Cat's too) is why to take chanses. I mean, Lannisters know that Ned hates Jamie, and that Lyanna was supposed to be in Cersei's place by Robert. It is not like Starks and Lannisters are friends or something, so Lan's (or Starks) don't have to worry about the letter.

[Barba]

Finally reread chapter. My thoughts:

- Catelyn is Manipulative. you can see it in her thoughts:"Had to make him see", "How could he not see"...

- I think that this chapter was made from cat's POV because of all the interuptions she made. I think George didn't want reader to see Ned's thoughts. Here are they:

1:“Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven,†Ned said. “And Joffrey . . . Joffrey is . . . â€

She finished for him. “ . . . crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.â€

2:“He (Jon) and Robb are close,†Ned said. “I had hoped . . . â€

“He cannot stay here,†Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.†It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

3:“And none of them has ever been seen at court!†Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—â€

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. “Another solution presents itself,†he said, his voice quiet. “Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.â€

1: who knows what Ned thought about Joff at this time. George wouldn't tell

2: Who knows what hopes ned had for jon in the future. George wouldn't tell

3: The biggest and the reason to write chapter from Cat's POV. He was so pissed that he might have said that Jon was Lyanna's son. But, George wouldn't tell.

“You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert’s errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him. Make him part of your councils. He must be ready when his time comes.â€

Also I noticed that Cat is considered as Stark here, wich contradicts that Cersei is considered Lannister.

[Ealasaid]

I wrote this up and somwhow it was eaten. Catelyn and Cersei are two mothers we are supposed to compare and contrast. Both are manipulative and have power that they do not use wisely (I'm not even going to put Uncat here - I think she is the living face of the Stranger).

Catelyn doesn't like Winterfell, she made that obvious. She wanted to shine in the south, too. Amazing that she thought they could just up and leave.

I like this chapter for the description of Winterfell's hot springs and heaitng system.

I dislike it because Catelyn is acting out of character - she's so proper Ned is astounded to find her hiding in a brothel. But she whips around naked to merely burn a note from Lysa that no one could read? That did not ring true. And lastly her antagonism toward Jon is misplaced. She thinks that she could forgive Ned a dozen bastards if they were hidden away. Ridiculous. For all she knows Ned "sinnned" once and did the fairest thing he could by the child. Yet she would rather he had other women enough to have 12 bastards? It doesn't happen everytime C. I am beginning to dislike her more than I did before. She's allowing a child to go to a monastic life with no life expereince behind him. We don't even know it Jon had a flirt or kiss before taking the blac. It's like the oblates in the Catholic Church in the middle ages - send us your unwanted sons.

[Spring Bass]

To be fair, what Ned Stark did (raising his bastard son in his own house) is a bit unusual on his part. When Catelyn begged him to send him away, she probably meant something akin to what Lord Hornwood's bastard had, where he was being fostered by the Glovers at Deepwood Motte.

And to be honest, Cat has no real reason to like Jon. He may be still a fairly young man, but since he was raised at Winterfell, he has an idea of what it means to be a Stark, and his children - as Cat worries - might one day compete with her grandchildren to rule the North.

[Ealasaid]

Ah.

I think you give Catelyn too much credit. I think she hates Jon for the woman who may have bore him and what that woman may have meant to Ned. I believe she is now paying him back for the question on Ashara Dayne and the years of silence on his parentage.

"Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart..."

If she loved Ned with all her heart, she would love Jon, who was part of Ned. She is pitiless on this point. And her throwing her weight to the suggestion to send him to the Wall is a cold and pitiless act. It is a cold and ptitless place and she herself fears what lies beyond the Wall.

I see your point, that Jon's heirs could possibly be set up to threaten her sons. She is the threat to her sons.

[oba]

Not to take this completely OT, but. . .

If she loved Ned with all her heart, she would love Jon, who was part of Ned.

Ideally, you're absolutely right. I'm happy this situation wasn't presented as an "ideal" one.

IMO, the fact that she resents Jon's presence is quite realistic. It makes her a less sympathetic character, particularly for those who like Jon, but I actually appreciated the fact that Catelyn didn't fall into the "loving 'step=mother' " stereotype. Ned's behavior is contrary to custom and his continued silence on the issue makes an awkward situation worse. Catelyn, instead of confronting her husband, takes it out on Jon. Nobody wins.

throwing her weight to the suggestion to send him to the Wall is a cold and pitiless act. It is a cold and ptitless place and she herself fears what lies beyond the Wall.

Well, Jon is the one who suggested it to Benjen. Benjen mentioned it to Luwin. Luwin is the one who brings it up as a possible solution to the Jon "problem".

It again amazes me that Ned (you know, the one who actually goes to talk to Benjen and Jon about it) escapes any culpability here. It's always about Catelyn. I don't get it. Never have.

The Starks clearly don't view the Night's Watch or the Wall as a "cold and pitiless place". They're the best "friends" the Watch has in the Seven Kingdoms.

The fact that, when Jon gets there, he realizes that the Wall is not at all the way he expected is another thing that should be laid at the door of Benjen and Ned who, it seems, either filled his head with a bunch of stories or simply allowed him to take those stories at face value. Again, the two of them never get any blame for it.

[Ealasaid]

It again amazes me that Ned (you know, the one who actually goes to talk to Benjen and Jon about it) escapes any culpability here. It's always about Catelyn. I don't get it. Never have.

The Starks clearly don't view the Night's Watch or the Wall as a "cold and pitiless place". They're the best "friends" the Watch has in the Seven Kingdoms.

The fact that, when Jon gets there, he realizes that the Wall is not at all the way he expected is another thing that should be laid at the door of Benjen and Ned who, it seems, either filled his head with a bunch of stories or simply allowed him to take those stories at face value. Again, the two of them never get any blame for it.

You are quite right. Ned does bear culpability for the Wall and Jon. And there isn't the argument that he could later have Jon taken off the Wall. Jon would swear his vows and be no different than any other brother. Ned had to know what a hardship it would be. There had to be a better way - send him to be fostered someplace. Unless it is unsafe for Ned to be anywhere that someone could connect him with a parentage Ned doesn't want known. Not going to start that here. But maybe the Wall was the only place. In which case, he should have told Jon before he left - Jon could have been killed on the Wall. Ned is a bit of a weakling about things. We often let it slide and chalk it up to honor.

I think Benjen did try, but Jon wasn't having any of it after the "father a few bastards bit."

No one has done right by Jon. He needed a mother and father as much as Bran or Robb.

I know that if my spouse had presented me with a child fathered on somone else after a business trip, I would stunned. But I would be furious with my spouse, not the child. I know. I know. Not a medieval way of thinking. But she claimed to love Ned and those other children consider Jon a brother. In 14 years she can't soften a bit?

[Spring Bass]

You are right; Ned does bear a strong degree of culpability for this. And even if certain theories on Jon's parentage are correct, it still probably would have been a better idea to send him to foster at one of his bannermen (Not the Boltons!).

I mean,come on, Ned himself was raised as a ward, and had a very happy childhood with Robert in the Vale. The Glovers, too, seem to like Lord Hornwood's bastard son. As long as Ned didn't send him to foster at (God forbid) the Boltons, Jon would have had a happier childhood.

[Barba]

But she claimed to love Ned and those other children consider Jon a brother. In 14 years she can't soften a bit?

It is exacly what bothered her. Jon was not her son, but he was Ned's and older than her own. Now, If he was very close to her children and Ned, and was allowed to be wherever they were (don't count feast for the king), then someday when he is older, He might get the Idea to be Warden of the north (not likley, but anyway), or something other like to take place of some of her younger sons (have his own fort while one of them is just banner in the winterfell)

One thing just occured to me. IIRC Jon is older than Robb. Now, if Robb was concieved on their wedding night, and afterward Ned went to war, why didn't it occured to anyone that Jon had to be younger than Robb if he was concieved by Ned.

[Spring Bass]

I think Jon actually IS a bit younger than Robb. Not by much (Robb was still in the womb when Jon was conceived), but he is younger.

The thing to remember, though, is that while Catelyn is not a bad person most of the time, she is utterly dedicated to her children. To use Ned's phrasing in his first chapter, she "loves Ned with all her heart", but she loves her children even more. Even if the threat of Jon is only that- a minor threat - it is still a threat to her precious children.

[Tarthking]

The thing to remember, though, is that while Catelyn is not a bad person most of the time, she is utterly dedicated to her children. To use Ned's phrasing in his first chapter, she "loves Ned with all her heart", but she loves her children even more. Even if the threat of Jon is only that- a minor threat - it is still a threat to her precious children.

That is how Catelyn and Cersei are exactly alike. Both will do anything to protect their children. And I think that is the defining characteristic of all of our Mother symbols (and I agree with Ealasaid about unCat being a living face of the Stranger). We'll see if Dany acts the same way with her dragons / subjects. I bet she does.

Reading through this thread made me realize how much the word heart is used in this chapter. I mentioned the comparison of Catelyn's room to a heart before, but I missed all this, "Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes." and "Catelyn's heart went out to him, but she knew she could not take him into her arms just then." Martin isn't fooling around when connecting "heart" with Catelyn.

In the Eddard thread, I've brought up the possibility that "stone" represents the Starks and Winterfell. If that is true, then the name Lady Stoneheart, while very ominous sounding, is really just another way for Martin to say Catelyn Stark.

It's presented. Cat reads it. It gets burned immediately and its usefulness to the plot (except for its contents) is over. No one's wondering if Maester Luwin gave it to Osha at the end of Book 2 because he may have figured out that Lysa and LF were in cahoots.

This made me laugh.

[The Adequate Jon]

Timeline:

Cat II takes place a few days after the King's welcoming feast. Maester Luwin says that Benjen mentioned Jon's desire to join the NW a few days ago.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think sending Jon to the Wall was making the best of a bad situation for Ned.

He obviously can't bring Jon to KL, that would be too dangerous if people started to ask questions about Jon's mother. Catelyn has said they won't let him stay in Winterfell. At the wall Ned would have expected Jon to be looked after by the one person Ned probably trusts more than any one else, Benjen. And the very fact that Benjen is at the wall shows that taking the black is considered by the Starks as something honorable and worthy and not considered some horrible fate.

[Barba]

Catelyn III

Introduced: Hallis Mollen (former guardsman at Winterfell, later Captain of the Guard, later with Robb’s army and then sent to return Ned's bones);

Old Nan* (ancient wet nurse and storyteller, great-grandmother of Hodor).

Maester Luwin tries to persuade Cat to leave Bran’s bedside and go over treasury counts, and name new men to posts vacated when Ned went south. Robb comes into the room and tells Luwin that he will make those decisions. Robb tells his mother that Rickon needs her, and that he needs her help running Winterfell. Outside, the direwolves are howling and Robb notices a fire has started in the library. As Robb runs off with the guards to fight the blaze, an assassin enters the room. He is filthy and appears ragged. Catelyn tries to prevent him from killing Bran, but has her palms sliced open by the cutthroat’s dagger. Bran’s direwolf saves both Cat and Bran, killing the assassin. Catelyn sleeps for four days after Maester Luwin bandages her hands, and she is a changed woman when she awakens, a woman with a purpose. She knows that someone sent the assassin to kill Bran because they feared what he might say if he awoke. Ser Rodrik points out that the dagger was expensive, made of Valyrian steel, and should not have been in the hands of such a pitiful assassin. Cat tells Robb, Theon, Ser Rodrik and Maester Luwin her suspicion that Bran was pushed from that tower. She then informs them that she must go to King’s Landing to learn the truth of who sent the assassin. Ser Rodrik is to accompany her.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Catelyn Tully, manic-depressive. Ok, not quite...

But she does go from one extreme to another. First, she's near catatonic; living in Bran's room, and doing nothing but sitting with her comotose son. Then, she's off to King's Landing to inform Eddard of the attempt.

In her attempt to show 'how strong a Tully can be", Catelyn rushes into the same mistake she later counsels Robb against. The wrong person for the wrong job. Why Catelyn decided that she needed to be the one to carry the message, we'll never know. But that arguably sealed Eddard's fate. She just as easily have sent Rodrik with another guard... and they could have delivered the dagger and the information to Eddard.

Instead, Catelyn makes the trip, and Littlefinger gets the opportunity he's been looking for. Eddard trusted Littlefinger because Catelyn urged him to. That was his downfall later on. Northmen other than Catelyn wouldn't have taken Tyrion hostage, either. Finally, Catelyn would've been there to see Bran wake up, and would've been there to help Rickon adjust. Instead, she goes from ignoring her family to stay with Bran, to ignoring her family to try and help Eddard find Bran's assassin.

I like Catelyn better later on, when she stops being such a Tully, and starts being more of a Stark. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen 'till ASoS.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I don't know, I can kind of see her reasons.

The message is extremely dangerous, and the only person she trusts to delivered it is herself. Roderik can go, but he can be stopped, searched, etc.

She is the lady of Winterfell, daughter of the Lord of Riverrun and wife to the Hand, no one would dare get in her way unless they intend to start a war.

Can't really blame the situation with Tyrion on this decision, since that can no way be foreseeable.

I think the real mistake is that she didn't go to Winterfell with Ned. She's a much better player of politics than Ned, she would have kept Sansa in control more (Sansa absent her real mother took to Cersei as her mother figure, and confided in her), and really, would Robb have been that much worse off without her? With experienced men like Rodrik, Luwin, etc as advisors and most of the North very loyal to the Starks, Robb could have handled it. As it turned out, Robb had to handle it by himself anyway with Catelyn leaving for KL and then to the Vale, and Robb did an okay job of it.

[Barba]

I think the real mistake is that she didn't go to Winterfell with Ned.

Do you mean King's Landing.

If you do, it was not her decision. Ned commanded her to stay. There must be a Stark in Winterfell

[cybroleach]

Do you mean King's Landing.

If you do, it was not her decision. Ned commanded her to stay. There must be a Stark in Winterfell

Was he speaking of her or Robb?

[Barba]

Was he speaking of her or Robb?

Her, I think. She is called Lady Stark all over the books. And I think he considers Robb as Stark, but still minor one. We even know that he was not using true steel at the time of Cat2. He eves says in that chapter that Robb still needs to learn a lot.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Yes, but she didn't really argue against it, like she did against Bran going.

It was still in retrospect a big mistake, they both should have known that Ned on his own in KL was going to be problematic.