R+L=J v.131

[markg171]

I'm not certain whether a skinchanger can jump from one host to another, if that's what you mean. I think not. The question is, if the Skingchanger's body is brought back to life as a wight after the Skinchanger has hopped into an animal, would they then be able to return to the body as they would be able to if their body was still alive? Depends on what wights really are, I guess. Or rather whether GRRM wants it to be possible.

I doubt it.

“They say you forget,” Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. “When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains.”

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell’s, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well.

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.

That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

If jumping back to a body was possible, Orell and Varamyr should have been able to do so, and would have done so. Yet they never get back to a body.

But interestingly enough

When they reached the crest the wolves paused. Thistle, he remembered, and a part of him grieved for what he had lost and another part for what he’d done. Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other. The empty village was no longer empty. Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow. Some wore brown and some wore black and some were naked, their flesh gone white as snow. A wind was sighing through the hills, heavy with their scents: dead flesh, dry blood, skins that stank of mold and rot and urine. Sly gave a growl and bared her teeth, her ruff bristling. Not men. Not prey. Not these.

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

Varamyr notes Thistle as having been raised as a wight, but he either doesn't recognize his own body, doesn't see it, or it was never raised. So it's possible that skinchangers can't be raised as wights, as their soul is in another body so there's nothing to animate the body. In which case, then a skinchanger couldn't go back into their own body that was raised as a wight as that's not possible for them to have been raised.

[markg171]

Jon is not Warged into Ghost... One's 2nd life & skinchanging/warging have different mechanics... They are not one & the same...

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end.

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

[RumHam]

The idea is that Jon will be living his second life in Ghost when Melisandre performs the kiss of life on his body. His "soul" (for lack of a better word) will have been preserved in Ghost, thus preventing the degradation you see with Beric Dondarrion.

[addicted to snow]

Anyone who thinks Jon is dead (or more specifically) really is not paying close attention. The clues that Jon is critical to the endgame as the offspring of Stark and Targaryen--A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified, are overwhelming. How long he stays in Ghost, however, is a real matter for debate.

I don't know how long he will remain in Ghost... Long enough to travel to the Heart of Winter...

If his body is thrown in the ice cells, then he will probably never be able to reunite with it, because the wall's magic blocks that sort of thing... Then he would be forced to take another human body...

[Alia of the knife]

Just extending my thoughts a little:

Coldhands is an anomalous figure. He certainly died and now appears to be a wight, but he isn't like other wights. Normally they have a functional body, senses, and some kind of memory, but none of the original's personality. How did Coldhands get to retain his personality?

When a skinchanger dies, they can jump to their host animal and live a second life. They don't as far as I know have the ability to jump hosts at that stage -- perhaps skinchanging can only be done from your own body? They can't jump back to their own bodies, because their own bodies are dead. Their muscles don't work, their senses don't work. That would no longer be true if their body had become a wight -- essentially the body reanimated without the original personality. In that case, what would stop a skinchanger returning to their bodies, and retaking control?

Thus a possible explanation for the anomalous Coldhands is he might have been a skinchanger who died, was wighted (like being knighted only colder) and returned to his body.

Sooo. Just suppose, for the sake of argument, that the same thing happens to Jon. Jon, as we all know, is half-Targ. That would make him an ice dragon, right? Interesting, we've been keeping our eyes out for one of those.

What do you get if you have a Targwight? Ice and fire embodied, a bridge between the two, impossible without a mixing of the fire blood of Valyria with the warg blood of the First Men. Also you get a way for Jon to see the Heart of Winter.

Crackpot maybe, but a pot that's cracked in an interesting way.

Going where others cannot? Maybe a little like this.

Paul takes the Water of Life: http://youtu.be/VYc9_OVUxwI

[markg171]

The idea is that Jon will be living his second life in Ghost when Melisandre performs the kiss of life on his body. His "soul" (for lack of a better word) will have been preserved in Ghost, thus preventing the degradation you see with Beric Dondarrion.

Well there would still be some degradation

“They say you forget,” Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. “When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains.”

But I'm not discounting the possibility that someone else couldn't reanimate his body and somehow put him back. Just that he wouldn't be able to go back to his body on his own.

[RumHam]

Well there would still be some degradation

But I'm not discounting the possibility that someone else couldn't reanimate his body and somehow put him back. Just that he wouldn't be able to go back to his body on his own.

Haggon was talking about degradation over time. There really shouldn't be much delay between Jon's death and his return. If there is, then yes there would be some degradation. This would fit with the idea that nothing comes without sacrifice. In other words Jon can't just pull a Gandolf and return stronger than ever. There has to be a cost. As others have said, I really hope that cost isn't Ghost. I'd rather Jon be a little more zombie like than have Ghost be killed by Bowen & Co.

[Ser Creighton]

I'm not certain whether a skinchanger can jump from one host to another, if that's what you mean. I think not. The question is, if the Skingchanger's body is brought back to life as a wight after the Skinchanger has hopped into an animal, would they then be able to return to the body as they would be able to if their body was still alive? Depends on what wights really are, I guess. Or rather whether GRRM wants it to be possible.

So what you want to know is Jon goes into Ghost and his body gets Whighted and he returns to it will he be like Coldhands. That is possibly how Cold hands was created but he could also be cursed as the World book mentions about the First King. Anyone rising as high as him would be cursed undead or ssomething to that effect. Which is why I think Coldhands is Brandon the Builder. At least one of the reasons.

Look to the wind coming out of the south. The Others are not there yet. I know there is an idea that they may already be south but weather it was the Others or the Wight's the wid came from the North.

In thrones during the end of the spirit summer, Jon has his Crypt of Winterfell dream again and it goes further than ever and the Crypts begin to open and the dead beging to walk again. Can't say it's great foreshadowing for Jon, but that morning when Jon and Company find the first two Wights two of Benjens men Flowers and Othor. There is no wind and the day like the week has been unusually hot. But as the sun sets it begins to grow cold, and the wind rises out of the North and that does not happen till well after the Wights are passed the wall.

When Jon is woken by Ghost who is trying to get out the door. Ghost bares his fangs at Jon when Jon tries to touch him and that is similar to Jon's last moments with Ghost before he gets stabbed. But again it is not just Cold it's this insane cold, the White Cold. Sam and Gilly in the Long hall the wind once again begins to rise out of the North nd that super bitter cold shows up. Royce and the Others, WInd out of the North. Old Nans tail the Wind comes out of the North.

So I am guessing no Others at this point. Though Mel says something to Jon about the Cold and Jon of course blows it off like a numb nuts saying it's always Cold up here but Mel says not like what is coming or something like that. The Old woman at Crasters says the same thing to Sam when he tells her it's always cold.

I think Coldhands has the right of it and probably knows more about the wall than Anyone, as long as the watch Stays true the wall will not fall. Problem is as of late most the best brothers have been killed, there is infighting and betrayal, there is murder and assasins, lies and deception. I think the watch and Wall are failing.

As for the comments above about Ghost saving Jon, well what else is new. I am sorry but Ghost totally got the short end of that arrangment. Lets see, alerted Jon to the Wight, attacked the Wight giving Jon time to pull the drapes down. Pulled the Wight off Jon right before it killed him, attacked the Wight again to give Jon enough time to get the fire. Kept Jon from riding south which would of had Jon end up dead. Killed Halfhand which saves Jon from the Wildlings after he got captured. Then of course Mance spares him cause Jon had to sit at the back table. Then Yiggy saves the little princess when he is busted Lying, then while everyone is Dying at the fist, the death march and Crasters, Jon is forced to have sex over and over with the cute red head. Then Summer and Bran save Jon from the Wildlings after he is exposed, then Noye hold the Tunnle at both ends saving the Watch, then Stannis saves Jon in Mances tent, then Sam saves Jonby getting him elected LC well Sam and the Bird. Now someone once again gets to save Jon. Swear to god Jon should be at the top of Tower letting his hair down. Should change his name to lord Snow White and get it over with.

Ghost is probably sitting in the forge thinking again? Really? Oh and so tired of the Mel criticism, Jon you send out those Rangers and they will die. Nailed it. Girl in Grey on a Dying horse, look it wasn't a homerun but at worst it's a double she just got the name wrong. They are even kin. She is so right about Hardhome but Jon does not want to hear it, so he actually says she is wrong about everything. How can she be wrong about what she is clearly right about. She was also right about the raven, he thought hmmmm maybe I should talk to her. Yes you probably should but dear god dummy if she is right about all that stuff which she was, then why the hell are you going to Hardhome again and Marching south with most of your force? Brilliant your Job is to defend the wall not get pissy about a letter that has you marching hundreds of miles in a blizzard robbing you of every stategic advantage you have and giving all of them to your enemy who has a superior force to begin with.

Even Jeor and Sam talked about it in swords, the watch should be doing their Job, the Others are the enemy, not the Wildlings, they are sworn to defend mankind not keep going to war with it. He couldn't spare 15 minutes to talk to Mel about the Raven before going to the hall for operation bone head. He already knows she is right, yet it's Hardhome two electric boogaloo. Jon it is a blatant trap. I must save the woman and children and men of the watch. No they are dead already Jon. No they aren't you got a name wrong once. Yeah not the same the fires have gone out. What do you think they are playing hide and go seek, loser gets eaten? You don't even need Mel to know it's a damn trap. It's like high this is Pyke we lost half our ships there are dead things in the water and woods and we are trapped, ummm could you send some help things are really bad.

PS. Don't let the fact your recon times keep going missng and your blind worry you, march your blind ass up to the death trap cause it's to obvious to be one. We are so not bait at all.

PSS. Have you seen the Walking dead? It's like that up here, but freezing, no guns, and we are totally surrounded but they just seem to be waiting for someone and preventing us from leaving. Puddles says to say high, totally misses you, wants you to bring all your friends to the party. Told me to tell you it's totally not a trap. Oh cool he is juggling 6 rangers heads with one hand and sticking up his middle finger at us.

You know why Jon's guard did not protect him? Because Lord Snow put Wun Wun in Hardins tower to protect the girls and then told Ser Pat he needed to steal Val. Yep law of unintentional consequences. It created a big distraction and Jon has his guard trying to control the crowd.

You know who could of led a force of Wildlings south? The Nights of the Queen. Oh and if you want to know about Hardhome when Val got back you should of just sent her out again as she is the one person who seems to be able to walk around North of the wall without any problems at all. All the Other Wildlings are dropping like flies, and so are the Rangers and Watch but Val is skipping through the forest leading thousands of Wildlings back to the wall without any trouble. I would be like congradulations you're first ranger, go recon Hardhome for me you freaking Ninja. Not only does she seem to know the woods better than the Rangers, but she seems to know them better than everyone. Stannis is gone and the Queen has a couple Dozen people so who gives a shit if you break the rules, like it would be the first time? You want to save people but not break the rules, except when you are breaking the rules?

[RumHam]

Ok this is horrible and almost certainly not true. But what if the cost of Jon's resurrection was Bran. Bloodraven tells Bran he arrived late, maybe he got there just in time so Bloodraven could kill him and revive Jon to be the ultimate Other killing machine. Or alternatively have Bran skinchang into the deadish Jon as Bloodraven skinchanges Coldhands.

[BearQueen87]

Ok this is horrible and almost certainly not true. But what if the cost of Jon's resurrection was Bran. Bloodraven tells Bran he arrived late, maybe he got there just in time so Bloodraven could kill him and revive Jon to be the ultimate Other killing machine. Or alternatively have Bran skinchang into the deadish Jon as Bloodraven skinchanges Coldhands.

Eek!

Well, I tend to think that Bran and Jon will connect through a wolf dream while Bran and Jon are both warged. Jon will realize that Bran isn't dead and is...with a tree guy....but when he comes back tohis body he may have to make a choice about if he goes to get Bran or not (love vs duty). I also think Bran is going to continue to cross lines he shouldn't when it comes to his warging. But your scenario is rather scary.

[Kingmonkey]

Look to the wind coming out of the south. The Others are not there yet. I know there is an idea that they may already be south but weather it was the Others or the Wight's the wid came from the North.

When the wights/Others are to the north, the cold wind blows from the north. When you start getting really cold winds blowing from the south, doesn't that hint that maybe the wights/Others are south already? Dead things in the water...

[markg171]

Ok this is horrible and almost certainly not true. But what if the cost of Jon's resurrection was Bran. Bloodraven tells Bran he arrived late, maybe he got there just in time so Bloodraven could kill him and revive Jon to be the ultimate Other killing machine. Or alternatively have Bran skinchang into the deadish Jon as Bloodraven skinchanges Coldhands.

Sacrificing Bran would actually follow what we know happened with Drogo...

“You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.”

“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said. “That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price.”

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. “The price was paid,” Dany said. “The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid.” She rose from her cushions. “Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my son’s life.”

He was lying on the bare red earth, staring up at the sun.

A dozen bloodflies had settled on his body, though he did not seem to feel them. Dany brushed them away and knelt beside him. His eyes were wide open but did not see, and she knew at once that he was blind. When she whispered his name, he did not seem to hear. The wound on his breast was as healed as it would ever be, the scar that covered it grey and red and hideous.

“Why is he out here alone, in the sun?” she asked them.

“He seems to like the warmth, Princess,” Ser Jorah said. “His eyes follow the sun, though he does not see it. He can walk after a fashion. He will go where you lead him, but no farther. He will eat if you put food in his mouth, drink if you dribble water on his lips.”

Dany kissed her sun-and-stars gently on the brow, and stood to face Mirri Maz Duur. “Your spells are costly, maegi.”

“He lives,” said Mirri Maz Duur. “You asked for life. You paid for life.”

Bringing Drogo back required the lives of his horse, and his son, and 4 others also died (though they weren't really specifically sacrificed for him). And this didn't bring back his consciousness. So bringing someone back requires a big and personal sacrifice, and to bring their consciousness back would probably require even more.

Now how does this get back to Jon and Bran and how does this connect to Drogo? Well Robb made Jon his heir. Jon's heir is Bran seeing as Bran is the next oldest Stark male after him. Rhaego was Drogo's heir and he was part of the sacrifice required for him. So Bran would fulfill the role that Rhaego did. Ghost can also be the red stallion.

Now where things get interesting in this situation, is Jon's consciousness is in Ghost. The sacrifice of the heir and the favoured pet couldn't bring back Drogo's consciousness. It just brought life. But with the sacrifice of the pet with Jon's consciousness in it, things could get interesting. The moment Ghost and Bran dies, would be enough to bring back Jon's body. But what if when Ghost dies and his life force flows to Jon's body, the consciousness flows as well? This sacrifice could bring back the body and the mind.

So I don't think it's too crazy to suggest that Bran could be part of the sacrifice. He fulfills the role that Rhaego played as the heir.

[Ser Creighton]

When the wights/Others are to the north, the cold wind blows from the north. When you start getting really cold winds blowing from the south, doesn't that hint that maybe the wights/Others are south already? Dead things in the water...

Wights were south of the wall but the Wind came from the North, plus it's cold but not the painful white cold we know in the books, Jon says cold but as he is walking there is not mention of this insane cold and nobody else seems effected by it.

[matsuki]

I want to see Jon skinchange into Wun Wun...

[Ygrain]

I want to see Jon skinchange into Wun Wun...

Now, that would be a sight! :D

On a related note: I think, or perhaps call it a hunch, that we might see Bran warging Hodor permanently and leaving his crippled body behind to become a knight as he had always wanted to be: Dunk the Tall 2.0

[The Basilisk]

What if Bran just kinda becomes Jon's body and Bran/Jon will yolo be the ptwp

[Kingmonkey]

Wights were south of the wall but the Wind came from the North

When was that?

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Just extending my thoughts a little:

Coldhands is an anomalous figure. He certainly died and now appears to be a wight, but he isn't like other wights. Normally they have a functional body, senses, and some kind of memory, but none of the original's personality. How did Coldhands get to retain his personality?

When a skinchanger dies, they can jump to their host animal and live a second life. They don't as far as I know have the ability to jump hosts at that stage -- perhaps skinchanging can only be done from your own body? They can't jump back to their own bodies, because their own bodies are dead. Their muscles don't work, their senses don't work. That would no longer be true if their body had become a wight -- essentially the body reanimated without the original personality. In that case, what would stop a skinchanger returning to their bodies, and retaking control?

Thus a possible explanation for the anomalous Coldhands is he might have been a skinchanger who died, was wighted (like being knighted only colder) and returned to his body.

Sooo. Just suppose, for the sake of argument, that the same thing happens to Jon. Jon, as we all know, is half-Targ. That would make him an ice dragon, right? Interesting, we've been keeping our eyes out for one of those.

What do you get if you have a Targwight? Ice and fire embodied, a bridge between the two, impossible without a mixing of the fire blood of Valyria with the warg blood of the First Men. Also you get a way for Jon to see the Heart of Winter.

Crackpot maybe, but a pot that's cracked in an interesting way.

Not turning this into a CH discussion but I don't think CH has his own thoughts...I think he is just a puppet of Brynden Rivers....I have read somewhere in these forums call him BR's meat suit.

Anyways...not the topic for CH...you can find my topic on CH in my signature.

As for Jon...I don't think he is dead. Injured...probably. Severely injured...possibly. Warged into Ghost...IMO, most likely.

He says "Ghost". (since Melisandre slipped out early, she may have set Ghost free)

He thinks Stick them with the pointy end.

He never felt the fourth knife, only the cold ... (What if by this moment, he is warged into Ghost...and he sees someone with the fourth knife, therefore he would not feel it. Just the cold as Ghost feels it).

This has probably been discussed but I missed it if it had.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Wights were south of the wall but the Wind came from the North, plus it's cold but not the painful white cold we know in the books, Jon says cold but as he is walking there is not mention of this insane cold and nobody else seems effected by it.

When was that?

The only time I remember Wights south of the Wall were the two that the NW carried through the wall (Othor & Jafer)

[BearQueen87]

He never felt the fourth knife, only the cold ... (What if by this moment, he is warged into Ghost...and he sees someone with the fourth knife, therefore he would not feel it. Just the cold as Ghost feels it).

Yes, exactly. To me that's one of the biggest clues that Jon has left the building, so to speak. He can't feel the fourth knife, but he knows there is one, but he hasn't gone paralyzed because he can still feel the cold. George wrote it poetically and you're too caught up in what is going on to really notice the first time (or at least I didn't catch it the first time) but then when you really stop to think about it, you realize that he's telling you what is happening.