The Brown Dragon - A Speculation about Nettles' heritage

[Lord Varys]

I'm not sure if Aemond had a bedmate before Alys. Nothing suggests that he went through with his marriage to the Baratheon girl.

[Aslerys]

This might be a stretch but when I heard about Nettles, I immediately thought about another girl named Nettle that is the bastard daughter of the main character in the Farseer series by Robin Hobb (whom I think is friends with GRRM), so I always assumed that Nettles was Daemon's bastard not his lover even before I read anything about her, I mean it seemed to me too much to be a simple coincidence! :dunno:

[Suzanna Stormborn]

This might be a stretch but when I heard about Nettles, I immediately thought about another girl named Nettle that is the bastard daughter of the main character in the Farseer series by Robin Hobb (whom I think is friends with GRRM), so I always assumed that Nettles was Daemon's bastard not his lover even before I read anything about her, I mean it seemed to me too much to be a simple coincidence! :dunno:

Cool :) Thx for posting that

[Ser Cold Fingers]

This might be a stretch but when I heard about Nettles, I immediately thought about another girl named Nettle that is the bastard daughter of the main character in the Farseer series by Robin Hobb (whom I think is friends with GRRM), so I always assumed that Nettles was Daemon's bastard not his lover even before I read anything about her, I mean it seemed to me too much to be a simple coincidence! :dunno:

Nice catch! I didn't know about the Robin Hobb series.

[Aslerys]

Cool :) Thx for posting that

Nice catch! I didn't know about the Robin Hobb series.

You're welcome! ^_^

[Black Dragons]

First point Targaryens have marry sister and brother, cousin and cousin, and sometimes uncle and niece, maybe aunt to nephew, but never daughters to fathers yes incest runs in the family but there are limits there no way that Daemon is Nettles' father Fact It is unknown if Nettles actually had Targaryen blood, she able to tame the dragon by feed it sheep. She born in 113, Daemon took a her as bedmate, but let her go because his wife found out about them and wanted to kill her.

[The Wondering Wolf]

but never daughters to fathers

Aegon IV Targaryen's eighth mistress was Falena Stokeworth, and she was roumered to be his daughter.

It is unknown if Nettles actually had Targaryen blood, she able to tame the dragon by feed it sheep.

It would be a little bit...weird if you could tame a dragon by just feeding him.

Daemon took a her as bedmate

That's what we are told by maesters. But we don't know if it's true. Daemon and Nettles spent a lot of time together, so people assumed they had sex. Could be true, could be untrue.

[Greymoon]

The Targaryens were accustomed to incest, the Starks (presumably) were not. We don't even know if this uncle-daughter marriage thing was a way to emulate the Targaryens rather than something the Starks had done for centuries (although I'd not be surprised if they did). But still, brother-sister marriages being considered ideal, it would not be surprising for a Targaryen to marry his own daughter.

I don't think the Starks were trying to emulate anyone. Uncle-niece marriages did occur among the European nobility and is still permissible in some countries today...

While cousin marriage is legal in most, and avunculate marriage is legal in many countries, sexual relations between siblings is considered incestuous almost universally. However, the innate sexual aversion (taboo against sexual attraction) between siblings forms due to close association in childhood. Thus, children who grow up together do not develop sexual attraction, even if they are unrelated, and conversely, siblings who were separated at a young age may develop sexual attraction. Thus, most cases of sibling incest, including accidental incest in the case of couples who met without being aware of their being siblings, concern siblings who were separated at birth or at a very young age.

[...]

A historical marriage between full siblings was that between John V, Count of Armagnac and Isabelle d'Armagnac, dame des Quatre-Vallées, c. 1450. The provided papal dispensation for this union was declared forged in 1457.In antiquity, Antiochus, a Seleucid prince, married his sister, Laodice IV. Sibling marriage was especially frequent in Roman Egypt, and probably even the preferred norm. Sibling marriage is also common among the Zande people of Central Africa.John M. Goggin and William C. Sturtevant (1964) listed eight societies which generally allowed sibling marriage, and thirty-five societies where sibling marriage was permissible among the upper classes (nobility) only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibling_relationship#Sibling_marriage_and_incest

Cousin marriages, uncle-niece marriages (avunculate marriage), sibling marriages, these have all been permitted at specific times and specific places, some still are. But parent-child incest, would be one step further...even the Targaryens might consider that incest. Though there was rumors about Aegon IV.

That being said, Nettles as Daemon's daughter is interesting -- if we discount the rumors of a relationship :)

[Lord Varys]

My point there was that we do not know whether the Kings in the North also practiced uncle marriage prior to the Conquest. I'd not surprised if they did, but we have no textual evidence. It could be that the uncle marriages from the family tree came from the Starks trying to emulate the Targaryens.

Nettles and Daemon could also have a relationship if they are father and daughter. This does not have to stop them, or has it?

[walkingWITHcersei]

If this is the case I doubt Daemon would bed her, call the Targ what you will, but daughter bedding isn't there style.

Maegor did it and Daemon is compared to him often enough. I agree with u but I don't put anything past GRRM, Daemon, or any aristocrat who thinks himself a god. Still, would be a gross reveal wouldn't it lol

[walkingWITHcersei]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/123757-the-back-of-a-westeros-milk-carton/?p=6668249

Ironic that the post is from Alia of the Knife since the attempt to marry her to her brother was made repeatedly in that series lol

[Veltigar]

Maegor did it and Daemon is compared to him often enough. I agree with u but I don't put anything past GRRM, Daemon, or any aristocrat who thinks himself a god. Still, would be a gross reveal wouldn't it lol

? Kind of hard for Maegor to do that since he never had any children (male or female). It was rumoured that Aegon IV bedded his daughter (and her mother), after which he gave her some sort of clap or pox. Of course, this is the King known as the Unworthy. GRRM himself thinks of Aegon IV as the worst monarch in the series. Daemon Targaryen is certainly not often compared to Aegon IV to my knowledge. He's way to competent and not nearly malevolant enough to be thrown in with Aegon the Unworthy.

[Lord Varys]

If Nettles was Daemon's daughter, she was obviously not raised by him, and he may not have been aware of her existence until he met her at KL following Rhaenyra's ascension to the Iron Throne. A mutual attraction could easily have developed then between father and daughter - especially if Nettles wanted to check Daemon out before telling him who she actually was.

[walkingWITHcersei]

? Kind of hard for Maegor to do that since he never had any children (male or female). It was rumoured that Aegon IV bedded his daughter (and her mother), after which he gave her some sort of clap or pox. Of course, this is the King known as the Unworthy. GRRM himself thinks of Aegon IV as the worst monarch in the series. Daemon Targaryen is certainly not often compared to Aegon IV to my knowledge. He's way to competent and not nearly malevolant enough to be thrown in with Aegon the Unworthy.

Sorry total brain fart u know what I meant lol

I was just pointing out that Targs especially Targs like daemon don't always abide by societal norms. But no I don't think he slept with his daughter just that it's not as unlikely as you'd first think.

[Night's King Reborn]

I think this would be an interesting twist that would also show how historical narration can be incredibly flawed and biased.

Speaking of the dragonseeds, I've always wondered about the ancestry of Ulf the White and Hugh Hammer.

[Lord Varys]

Ulf and Hugh are most likely not first generation Targaryen bastards but either of their parents could have been an unrecognized Targaryen bastard.

An interesting suspect for that would be Princess Rhaenys' father Prince Aemon. He would be in the right age and at the right time on Dragonstone to entertain lovers there, and we know absolutely nothing about his character so this is entirely possible. The fact that he apparently only had one child, Rhaenys, could be a hint that his aunt-wife Jocelyn Baratheon died rather young, which would enable him to have fun with the Dragonstonian smallfolk.

Baelon the Brave's tenure on Dragonstone would have been too late for him to father a parent of Hugh/Ulf. And we should also not dismiss the possibility of a bastard born by a Targaryen female (lively Viserra springs to mind).

Another possibility I tossed around is that both Hugh and Ulf are descended from unrecognized bastards fathered by Aenys I prior to his ascension to the Iron Throne. 'The Sons of the Dragon' hammered home the fact that Aenys was quite popular with the women, and since Alyssa Velaryon apparently was a rather strong woman I'd expect him to keep any dragonseeds he made far from court...

I doubt that either Ulf or Hugh have ancestors that were fathered by Jaehaerys I, Maegor I, and Aegon I (especially since the latter may have been sterile).

If the ancestors go back to Aenys I mere chance may have enabled them to gain even more dragonblood if their grandparents and parents unknowingly interbred with other dragonseed descendants from Targaryens from before the Conquest.

[The Prince of Magpies]

Good points, Lord Varys. The idea you bring up at the end of dragonseed descendants unknowingly interbreeding with each other also raises the possibility that the original Targaryen ancestors of Hugh and Ulf go back to beyond the conquest. This would place their original 'seed' as quite distant, but the interbreeding with other such seeds could keep their 'genetic dragon aptitude' strong. We know very little of any of the Targaryens from Aenar to Aegon I, so there's ample room for speculation. I can't remember the exact wording, and don't have the book at hand, but as I recall, Gyldayn stresses that the Targaryens having their way with the commoners of Dragonstone had been going on quite a lot for quite a long time.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I like this theory. I did notice the conflicting reports of whether they were lovers or not, and this idea solves the problem. They were close because she was his secret daughter, and that was interpreted as them being lovers. Rhaenyra wouldn't have liked the rumors of him cheating, but it's not like she would have been happier if he explained that Nettles was his bastard daughter. Plus Nettle's loyalty still would have been a question mark in Rhaenyra's eyes.

It also makes sense that Daemon would point Nettles towards the Vale. He found it boring as hell when he was there, so probably assumed it was the safest place in Westeros...which it kind of is, so long as your aunt isn't trying to throw you out the moon door.

[walkingWITHcersei]

Wow for any Maester to risk lying to daemon about a letter demanding Nettles execution would take gigantic balls. It's almost certain to work but the risk is huge bc even if it did work it directly led to the current king (Aegon III) watching his mother eaten by a dragon. The way you'd die would be unimaginably horrific. Doubt that's what happened but if it did wow I salute that man's marbles.

[Lord Varys]

Another thing to consider is the question whether Dragonstone was actually populated prior the the Valyrian arrival, and how many people in total the Valyrians and later Aenar brought to the island. If half or even more of the populace of Dragonstone was of Valyrian descent/origin there is a very good chance that a lot of them had one or two drops of dragonlord blood especially those descended from pleasure slaves serving the Targaryens.

As to the maester situation:

Oh, I don't think that Maester Norren actually faked Rhaenyra's letter. I'm rather inclined to believe that somebody at court forged Rhaenyra's handwriting/signature and sent the letter to drive a wedge between Rhaenyra and Daemon.