The Wrong Way Rangers

[Lost Melnibonean]

In Jon II, Dance 7 we have Richard Horpe and Justin Massey depart Castle Black, heading south for destination(s) unknown. We see them return in Jon IV, Dance 17, but we are never told where they went. I believe Stannis dispatched them to treat with Houses Umber and Karstark.

Keep in mind that We learn that Stannis has dispatched his Hand to treat with Manderly. The only positive responses he received from the northern lords were from Mors Umber and Arnolf Karstark. So it would make sense to send two captains to treat with those two houses.

Upon their return we learn that Arnolf will fight for Stannis, as will Mors Umber but not Hothor Umber. We also learn that Arnolf is urging Stannis to march on the Deadfort while Ramsay marches on Moat Cailin. We later learn that this was a trap, and we know that Arnolf and Hothor meet with Ramsay at the Dreadfort, apparently to plan it. So Reek I, Dance 12 sould precede Jon II, Dance 7 on the actual timeline of events.

[Clegane'sPup]

The Jon III, Dance 7 is when Massey & Horpe are sent out. Jon notes that they are Queen’s men and that Stannis could have his secrets.

Jon IV, Dance 17 is when the wrong way rangers return. The scenario is that Jon is commanded to come to Stannis’ chambers. Jon finds Stannis & his captains gathered around a map of the north, as well as wrong way rangers (Massey and Horpe), Sigorn and the glamored Mance and Melisandre. The wildlings being in attendance struck me as odd.

Stannis wants Jon to give him information about Mors Umber. Jon asks if Mors has bent the knee. Stannis replies, half of them and only if I meet Crowfood’s (Mors) price. The price is Mance’s skull and a pardon for Whoresbane (Hother) who has joined the Bolton’s.

In the Reek 1, Dance 12 there is only descriptions of the lords sitting with Ramsey at the table in Dreadfort. One was gaunt, with flinty eyes, a long white beard and a hard face. The other has yellow teeth, a tangled forked beard of snow & silver and a few wisps’ of white hair on his head. No names.

I don’t think that the sequence is out of order. Karstark could have communicated support by raven before he went to Dreadfort. Umber may have required the in person touch. Convoluted, is what I call it, too many twists and turns, rarely a straight line to follow. Maybe someone else can connect the dots. Throw the Theon preview chapter in and my head starts feeling the Boom, doom, Boom, doom of drums beating outside of WF.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The Jon III, Dance 7 is when Massey & Horpe are sent out. Jon notes that they are Queens men and that Stannis could have his secrets.

Jon IV, Dance 17 is when the wrong way rangers return. The scenario is that Jon is commanded to come to Stannis chambers. Jon finds Stannis & his captains gathered around a map of the north, as well as wrong way rangers (Massey and Horpe), Sigorn and the glamored Mance and Melisandre. The wildlings being in attendance struck me as odd.

Stannis wants Jon to give him information about Mors Umber. Jon asks if Mors has bent the knee. Stannis replies, half of them and only if I meet Crowfoods (Mors) price. The price is Mances skull and a pardon for Whoresbane (Hother) who has joined the Boltons.

In the Reek 1, Dance 12 there is only descriptions of the lords sitting with Ramsey at the table in Dreadfort. One was gaunt, with flinty eyes, a long white beard and a hard face. The other has yellow teeth, a tangled forked beard of snow & silver and a few wisps of white hair on his head. No names.

I dont think that the sequence is out of order. Karstark could have communicated support by raven before he went to Dreadfort. Umber may have required the in person touch. Convoluted, is what I call it, too many twists and turns, rarely a straight line to follow. Maybe someone else can connect the dots. Throw the Theon preview chapter in and my head starts feeling the Boom, doom, Boom, doom of drums beating outside of WF.

I hear you.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Any other ideas as to what Massey and Horpe were doing?

[Pod The Impaler]

Well, their job was to seek out information from the Northern area - possible allies, enemy troop movements, news. Reconnaisance that is both military and political.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Well, their job was to seek out information from the Northern area - possible allies, enemy troop movements, news. Reconnaisance that is both military and political.

OK, having served in the 10th Mountain Division, I know a little bit about that kind of thing. At this time Bolton's forces were around the Neck, about 1,000 miles, at least two months round trip, plus time for actual reconnoitering. That seems like a bit much. Also, I don't think you'd just send two scouts. A small patrol, say 12 men would be more appropriate. On the other hand, if their mission was to seek out other allies, please specify which ones. Stannis' s initial response to Jon's suggestion of seeking help from the Mountain Clans suggests that he was only interested in securing support from great houses that could field more than a handful of soldiers.

[Clegane'sPup]

I don't think that they rode to Karhold to treat with Karstark. To Far away, besides Stannis said he sent out two score (40) ravens and Karstark had been the first to respond by sending a message via raven declaring his allegiance. Last Hearth, seat of the Umbers is the closest. Do you think that is where they rode to?

I also noticed that Stannis tells Jon that he means to have all 19 forts along the wall manned within a year. Could Massey and Horpe have been scouting the vacant forts?

Perhaps you could share a bit more information as to what information you are seeking? Battle plans and strategy are not my forte but I do like a mystery.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I don't think that they rode to Karhold to treat with Karstark. To Far away, besides Stannis said he sent out two score (40) ravens and Karstark had been the first to respond by sending a message via raven declaring his allegiance. Last Hearth, seat of the Umbers is the closest. Do you think that is where they rode to?

I also noticed that Stannis tells Jon that he means to have all 19 forts along the wall manned within a year. Could Massey and Horpe have been scouting the vacant forts?

Perhaps you could share a bit more information as to what information you are seeking? Battle plans and strategy are not my forte but I do like a mystery.

They didna go to other forts on the Wal since they headed south. So that brings us back to Last Hearth and Karhold. You say no need to go to Karhold because of raven communication and distance but distance was not prohibitive and they coulda communicated by raven with Last Hearth so why eliminate Karhold?

[Clegane'sPup]

Ok, gotcha, joke is it? Enjoy.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Ok, gotcha, joke is it? Enjoy.

No, I'm m being serious. I don't see any other satisfactory purpose for their excursion south of the Wall. And if I'm right then whom did they meet with? If they met with Arnolf, it had to be before or after Reek I. It makes sense for it to be after Reek I since Hother and Arnolf were in the Dreadfort to plan with Ramsay, and when Richard and Justin returned they told Stannis that Arnolf wanted Stannis to attack the Dreadfort while Ramsay was marching on Moat Cailin (so that Arnolf could betray him).

[Pod The Impaler]

OK, having served in the 10th Mountain Division, I know a little bit about that kind of thing. At this time Bolton's forces were around the Neck, about 1,000 miles, at least two months round trip, plus time for actual reconnoitering. That seems like a bit much. Also, I don't think you'd just send two scouts. A small patrol, say 12 men would be more appropriate. On the other hand, if their mission was to seek out other allies, please specify which ones. Stannis' s initial response to Jon's suggestion of seeking help from the Mountain Clans suggests that he was only interested in securing support from great houses that could field more than a handful of soldiers.

Winterfell would be south along the road, and they would have to at least get an idea of what lies there. And then perhaps regarding other places. There is no other way to find out such things but to send outriders. Without telecommunications, you either have to see the foes or go talk to someone at some keep who has news to share. (Even Mole's Town would be a source of information, had it not been previously evacuated due to wildlings.) Otherwise, how would they know where the Boltons & Freys are, or what they are doing ? Or the Ironborn ? At very minimum, they have to get past the gift to be in the territory of actual northern bannermen.

How far can two horsemen travel in that amount of time? Well, faster than an army marching, but I would not know how far they could go. How many days travel to Winterfell or wherever is a matter of pace, and if their horses can stay healthy. The smaller the group, the faster and more quietly it can move, is that not so? 12 might be more appropriate? OK, but there do not seem to many many examples of such groups in the books.

In any case, Stannis is hard-up for men, and these are two of his most prominent knights. The fact they are knights and not freeriders or lowborn men at arms with some ranging experience makes me think their purpose was partly political. They can ride, they can scout, they can fight, but more importantly they can treat with other highborn folk and make deals. Stannis also sent Davos to White Harbour for similar reasons.

However, I think since part of the plot hinges around what support Stannis might or might not get from Northern lords, I think the pair may also have been making contact those that would support Stannis, either openly or in secret. That part is still somewhat obscured. Could be the Glovers or Tallharts, etc. - some who survived the Sack of Winterfell or escaped from ironborn captivity.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Winterfell would be south along the road, and they would have to at least get an idea of what lies there. And then perhaps regarding other places. There is no other way to find out such things but to send outriders. Without telecommunications, you either have to see the foes or go talk to someone at some keep who has news to share. (Even Mole's Town would be a source of information, had it not been previously evacuated due to wildlings.) Otherwise, how would they know where the Boltons & Freys are, or what they are doing ? Or the Ironborn ? At very minimum, they have to get past the gift to be in the territory of actual northern bannermen.

How far can two horsemen travel in that amount of time? Well, faster than an army marching, but I would not know how far they could go. How many days travel to Winterfell or wherever is a matter of pace, and if their horses can stay healthy. The smaller the group, the faster and more quietly it can move, is that not so? 12 might be more appropriate? OK, but there do not seem to many many examples of such groups in the books.

In any case, Stannis is hard-up for men, and these are two of his most prominent knights. The fact they are knights and not freeriders or lowborn men at arms with some ranging experience makes me think their purpose was partly political. They can ride, they can scout, they can fight, but more importantly they can treat with other highborn folk and make deals. Stannis also sent Davos to White Harbour for similar reasons.

However, I think since part of the plot hinges around what support Stannis might or might not get from Northern lords, I think the pair may also have been making contact those that would support Stannis, either openly or in secret. That part is still somewhat obscured. Could be the Glovers or Tallharts, etc. - some who survived the Sack of Winterfell or escaped from ironborn captivity.

Where would they have found such men? Just wandering around the North? Stannis's initial wto Jon's suggestion that he seek support from the Mountain Clans strongly suggests that Stannis wanted to secure the support of principal houses not round up stray northmen.

[Clegane'sPup]

No, I'm m being serious. I don't see any other satisfactory purpose for their excursion south of the Wall. And if I'm right then whom did they meet with? If they met with Arnolf, it had to be before or after Reek I. It makes sense for it to be after Reek I since Hother and Arnolf were in the Dreadfort to plan with Ramsay, and when Richard and Justin returned they told Stannis that Arnolf wanted Stannis to attack the Dreadfort while Ramsay was marching on Moat Cailin (so that Arnolf could betray him).

No, I'm m being serious. I don't see any other satisfactory purpose for their excursion south of the Wall. Agreed they rode south down the Kings Road to somewhere p103. And if I'm right then whom did they meet with? My guess would be Umber. If they met with Arnolf, I don’t think they met with Arnolf because

1. P51 Jon says Stannis had been quick to spread the word when Karhold had declared for him

2. P52 40 ravens had been sent out, Karstark had been the first to respond by raven declaring his allegiance

it had to be before or after Reek I I think the chapters are in proper order**. It makes sense for it to be after Reek I since Hother and Arnolf were in the Dreadfort to plan with Ramsay this takes place on p166 and we are not given names, only descriptions, and when Richard and Justin returned p220 they told Stannis herein lies the problem, p222-225 is full of talk of Umber not Karstark that Arnolf wanted Stannis p225 Stannis says, “I have mind to march against Dreadfort” to attack the Dreadfort while Ramsay was marching on Moat Cailin (so that Arnolf could betray him). P226 Justin Massey says, “The Karstarks have sworn to join us at Dreadfort. Did that happen by raven or personal conversation? I think by raven.

pause

That entire Jon IV, Dance 17 is full of information. The scenario is that Jon is commanded to come to Stannis’ chambers. Jon finds Stannis & his captains gathered around a map of the north, as well as wrong way rangers (Massey and Horpe), Sigorn and the glamored Mance and Melisandre. The wildling and Mance being in attendance struck me as odd. Think about Umber’s price for allegiance p223: The price is Mance’s skull and a pardon for Whoresbane (Hother) who has joined the Bolton’s.

1. when men are in a territory that is unfamiliar to them it is best to send a team of two, whether they are envoys or scouting

2. looking at the Westeros map, Last Hearth (Umber) is closest

3. Jon keeps noting that Stannis is surrounded by Queens’s men

4. Stannis respects Jon’s counsel.

5. keep in mind that plans and strategy are not my specialty, and I am seriously reconsidering Massey’s loyalty to Stannis.

Throw the Theon preview chapter into the mix and my head starts feeling the Boom, doom, Boom, doom of drums beating outside of WF.

Stannis has a plan or what Jon called secrets. Fitting Stannis’ plan all together is for a mind of someone who has attended War College.

As an aside I would not be able to make a living by writing or editing. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of ASOIAF can articulate better than I can, and connect the dots.

______

**AGOT chapter 13 p121 pb Tyrion notes it has been 18 nights since they left WF and yet Catelyn chapter 14 p129 pb opens with Ned and the girls had been gone 8 days. That is an example of POV timelines in Westeros.

[Lost Melnibonean]

No, I'm m being serious. I don't see any other satisfactory purpose for their excursion south of the Wall. Agreed they rode south down the Kings Road to somewhere p103. And if I'm right then whom did they meet with? My guess would be Umber. If they met with Arnolf, I dont think they met with Arnolf because

• P51 Jon says Stannis had been quick to spread the word when Karhold had declared for him
• P52 40 ravens had been sent out, Karstark had been the first to respond by raven declaring his allegiance

it had to be before or after Reek I I think the chapters are in proper order**. It makes sense for it to be after Reek I since Hother and Arnolf were in the Dreadfort to plan with Ramsay this takes place on p166 and we are not given names, only descriptions, and when Richard and Justin returned p220 they told Stannis herein lies the problem, p222-225 is full of talk of Umber not Karstark that Arnolf wanted Stannis p225 Stannis says, I have mind to march against Dreadfort to attack the Dreadfort while Ramsay was marching on Moat Cailin (so that Arnolf could betray him). P226 Justin Massey says, The Karstarks have sworn to join us at Dreadfort. Did that happen by raven or personal conversation? I think by raven.

pause

That entire Jon IV, Dance 17 is full of information. The scenario is that Jon is commanded to come to Stannis chambers. Jon finds Stannis & his captains gathered around a map of the north, as well as wrong way rangers (Massey and Horpe), Sigorn and the glamored Mance and Melisandre. The wildling and Mance being in attendance struck me as odd. Think about Umbers price for allegiance p223: The price is Mances skull and a pardon for Whoresbane (Hother) who has joined the Boltons.

1. when men are in a territory that is unfamiliar to them it is best to send a team of two, whether they are envoys or scouting

2. looking at the Westeros map, Last Hearth (Umber) is closest

3. Jon keeps noting that Stannis is surrounded by Queenss men

4. Stannis respects Jons counsel.

5. keep in mind that plans and strategy are not my specialty, and I am seriously reconsidering Masseys loyalty to Stannis.

Throw the Theon preview chapter into the mix and my head starts feeling the Boom, doom, Boom, doom of drums beating outside of WF.

Stannis has a plan or what Jon called secrets. Fitting Stannis plan all together is for a mind of someone who has attended War College.

As an aside I would not be able to make a living by writing or editing. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of ASOIAF can articulate better than I can, and connect the dots.

______

**AGOT chapter 13 p121 pb Tyrion notes it has been 18 nights since they left WF and yet Catelyn chapter 14 p129 pb opens with Ned and the girls had been gone 8 days. That is an example of POV timelines in Westeros.

While the lords at the Dreadfort were not named, they were described in sufficient detail to confirm that they were Hother Umber and Arnolf Karstark. I do agree that it would have been wiser for Richard and Justin to travel together.

[Clegane'sPup]

While the lords at the Dreadfort were not named, they were described in sufficient detail to confirm that they were Hother Umber and Arnolf Karstark. I do agree that it would have been wiser for Richard and Justin to travel together.

You agree that it would have been wiser for Justin Massey and Richard Horpe to travel together. Are you suggesting that they split up?

[Lost Melnibonean]

You agree that it would have been wiser for Justin Massey and Richard Horpe to travel together. Are you suggesting that they split up?

Well I was thinking that one visited Last Hearth and the other visited Karhold, but your posts have made me think that they traveled to both together.

[Clegane'sPup]

Well I was thinking that one visited Last Hearth and the other visited Karhold, but your posts have made me think that they traveled to both together.

I think no one is interested in this topic. And I find it strange that not one person has chosen to add a flippant remark. And I find it stranger still that the big guns have not come out.

What is your opinion about the wilding and glamored Mance sitting at Stannis' table?

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think no one is interested in this topic. And I find it strange that not one person has chosen to add a flippant remark. And I find it stranger still that the big guns have not come out.

What is your opinion about the wilding and glamored Mance sitting at Stannis' table?

A lot of my threads turn out that way. If I wanted hits I'd title it Stannis is as stupid as Victarion, or Sansa is a b@$!#.

It doesn't seem to have any effect on the plot, especially if I'm right. And although there is a mystery about where they went, they're back, so it's not like Benjen or Tyrek etc.

If I'm right the only real consequence is that Reek I, Dance happens earlier than where it's placed in the novels.

I've appreciated the back and forth with you though. :)

ETA Regarding Sighorn and the Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt, perhaps the wrongway rangers recruited the Thenns. But if so I wonder why thet didna go with Stannis to Deepwood Motte. Stannis clearly valued the Mance's counsel or at least his information.

[Clegane'sPup]

ETA Regarding Sighorn and the Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt, perhaps the wrongway rangers recruited the Thenns. But if so I wonder why thet didna go with Stannis to Deepwood Motte. Stannis clearly valued the Mance's counsel or at least his information.

I donna no. Since you are making shite up, u tell me.

[Lost Melnibonean]

ETA Regarding Sighorn and the Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt, perhaps the wrongway rangers recruited the Thenns. But if so I wonder why thet didna go with Stannis to Deepwood Motte. Stannis clearly valued the Mance's counsel or at least his information.

I donna no. Since you are making shite up, u tell me.

What shite are you talking about? You asked opinion and I gave it to you. There were two wildings there, Sighorn and the Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt. Sighorn led the most cohesive force of Free Folk south of the Wall, and Stannis kept the Mance alive because he found them usuful. So what am I making up?