Jon's "Resurrection"

[239JMFL34109]

I think GRRM meant to say that the menace of the Other is the important thing (wrt the IT). Not that everything will be resolved at the Wall.

If the Wall holds and the Others never pass south, Jon can stay at his wall. And no one else, including Danerys, will ever care what's happening in the North.

But if the legends are true, if the sun does not rise, and the Long Night lasts a generation, if the Others are seen everywhere, then Jon may have more to do than staying at the Wall. If Melisandre and Val are convinced that Jon is not an Other's thrall (and I hope that will be VERY obvious), if Melisandre starts saying he his AA, if he can do (I don't know how) the trick of the burning sword, then I think everyone will follow him.

i never said the wall will hold or anything else it is just up their is the really craziness

[UtherSnow]

Could you give us a link to the article please? Are you sure it is not fake? I know the part about fans finding some elements in the 90's. But I don't know about GRRM speaking of important things revealed in book 6. Not that it would necessarily mean R+L=J, or AA identify or anything else.

I can't be sure but, I think this came up at one of GRRM's Q&A or book-readings.

Has it been mentioned that Howland Reed is coming in TWoW? He's the logical person to tell Jon, and explain all from ToJ. As far as I know, there are no weirwood trees close, therefore Bloodraven or Bran can't see those events.

Back in Jon's backyard.... I believe he's taken all of Aemon's advice. Reading the passage marked. Acting on 'kill the boy....' Knowledge is armour.... I doubt his plans have backfired but, he knows Mel's around.... However, I've wondered if someone else brings Jon back with something (balancing) equivalent to Thoros & Beric, Beric & LSH. Perhaps involving weirwood....

[The One And Only]

Lady stoneheart and etc... are not the same people who die.

Still versions of themselves.

Why can't people just stay dead in these sci-fi and fantasy genres? I know it's not as bad as comic books and soap operas but it is a close second.

Cat died at the red wedding. We don't need her corpse.

And getting back on topic here. Jon being stabbed felt like a silly plot device....

[Shane snow]

It's no insult to say a dead man, is dead

[Fire Eater]

It's no insult to say a dead man, is dead

Except he isn't confirmed as dead, and the author himself hints that he is still alive.

I agree with that.

GRRM has given us enough "return from the death". So we know that resurrection is "technically" possible. And IMHO, it was to prepare us to Jon's death and resurrection. So that it is not something coming out of nowhere.

And if death is not enough of an excuse to be released of his vows, I don't mind that Jon remains bound by them for a longer time. But I would really find lame if he was released by a Grand Council. GRRM has abundantly demonstrated that nobles are no wiser or better representing the god's justice on earth that any other men. IMHO, only gods can release Jon of his vows. And the only visible way they could do it, is by resurrecting him. And the simple disparition of the NW would not free him either, would not allow him to have wife or children, or a crown.

Except it wouldn't involve the way Cat and Beric were resurrected, and Jon isn't dead.

A coma doesn't count as death, and it wouldn't be a release from his vows. Jon would no doubt want to continue as LC. It wouldn't be lame if it was released by a Geat Council given the lords of the realm would be making a decision to make Jon king. Also, GRRM himself said a Great Council could release Jon of his vows, and the men of the NW have been released from their vows under rare circumstances.

SSM

Is there any chance that Jon could be released from his oaths of the nightwatch?

The great council would have released Aemon from his maester's oath, so I suppose it would be possible. With an appropriate authority.

[BalerionTheCat]

Except he isn't confirmed as dead, and the author himself hints that he is still alive.

Except it wouldn't involve the way Cat and Beric were resurrected, and Jon isn't dead.

A coma doesn't as death, and it wouldn't be a release from his vows. It wouldn't be lame if it was released by a Grand Council given the lords of the realm would be making a decision to make Jon king. Also, GRRM himself said a Grand Council could release Jon of his vows, and the men of the NW have been released from their vows under rare circumstances.

SSM

That is exactly the point. Aemon refused and Jon would do no less. Except maybe there will be no one else to be king. The kings and the great councils took a lot of decisions in the past. It was legal by men's laws. Was it by gods' laws? Remember NW vows are sworn in front of gods, old or new.

I think GRRM is showing us a lot of nobles, none worthy to be king or ruling over other men. Are they the legal representants of gods on Earth? I don't think so.

[Mithras]

That is exactly the point. Aemon refused and Jon would do no less. Except maybe there will be no one else to be king.

Exactly. There will be no one else to be the king or to be more precise, the Lords will be divided between several minor claimants. I think it is not a big stretch that fAegon, Stannis, Dany, the squid kings, the golden twins etc. are all be dead by the time the Great Council is summoned.

The kings and the great councils took a lot of decisions in the past. It was legal by men's laws. Was it by gods' laws? Remember NW vows are sworn in front of gods, old or new.

I think GRRM is showing us a lot of nobles, none worthy to be king or ruling over other men. Are they the legal representants of gods on Earth? I don't think so.

Jon did and will again break his vows if the safety of the Realm is at stake. That is what Qhorin taught him. The question is this: under what circumstances can Jon be persuaded to break his vows and take the crown (whether by force or by the offer of the Great Council)?

[Frey family reunion]

Exactly. There will be no one else to be the king or to be more precise, the Lords will be divided between several minor claimants. I think it is not a big stretch that fAegon, Stannis, Dany, the squid kings, the golden twins etc. are all be dead by the time the Great Council is summoned.

Jon did and will again break his vows if the safety of the Realm is at stake. That is what Qhorin taught him. The question is this: under what circumstances can Jon be persuaded to break his vows and take the crown (whether by force or by the offer of the Great Council)?

Sometimes it seems that we go to great lengths to put King Jon on the Iron Throne of the magical land of Targarya. Why on earth after all the blood sweat and tears, to remove their Targaryen overlords would the Lords vote to subjugate themselves to another one? Because of the bang up job he did as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? Now if the kid could corral himself a trio of dragons then he could crown himself I suppose, and the Great Council, his Nights Watch vows or whoever else objects be damned. Is Westeros in this big a need for a centralized government? It seems they did pretty well without one for several thousand years. Sure they had their fair share of wars, but they still did even with their dragon overlords and at least back then no one was napalming thousands of them into ash at once.

[Bendubz]

Don't know if anyone else has suggested this but here is my crackpot theory of his resurrection:

The stabbing really has killed Jon and Mel will not bring him back to life....

...Meanwhile further North Bran is becoming both a stronger greenseer and, more importantly, a stronger warg. We know before he even reached BR he was a strong warg, as he can warg into Summer for hours and survive even when his human body is frail from lack of food. He can even warg into Hodor for a couple of minutes at a time when south of the wall, and he's another Human (albeit a mentally challenged one).

Add in the tuition from Jojen and BR respectively and Bran can probably warg into anybody (I'm guessing it's similar to Leglimency in HP, you can block it but you need to concentrate and be a skilled Occlumens). Once you factor in Jojen paste as well his range probably increases and he can be miles away from the warged animal/human.

Bran will see Jon has died through a dream. Remember that it is Jon who Bran is closest to, not his true siblings. With his newly discovered powers, Bran will warg into Jon's body and bring him back to live, where he will stay for the rest of his life.

[addicted to snow]

I think Jon's soul and everything that made him Jon (except his corporeal form) will transfer to ghost. His body will be resurrected by Mel but what comes back will be a shadow of the former Jon, a thrall to Mel's whims and what will eventually become the Nights King 2.0. Ghost and Jon's soul will flee drawn by Bran towards the cave. There Bran will teach him the arts of skinchanging so Jon will take over Hodor and, armed with Dark Sister, he will confront his body regaining control of his mortal coil.

Very similar to my theory, see the link in my signature, below...

[addicted to snow]

Jon did and will again break his vows if the safety of the Realm is at stake. That is what Qhorin taught him. The question is this: under what circumstances can Jon be persuaded to break his vows and take the crown (whether by force or by the offer of the Great Council)?

lots of Jon fans seem to be hell-bent on seeing him become king... He will, but it will be a totally different type of king...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I did not read all the posts, expect the OP.

Fire Eater!!!! :drool: :cheers: Love it!

I have also been trying to figure out what will happen, how they will bring him back specifically without turning him into Thoros, Gregor or a zombie. I would say you are right on the money with this layout of events. That Jon Snow White thing is kind of hilarious, but it does make sense, Val must have some purpose here, it would make sense for her to be tending to Jon while he is sick anyway as this is women's work, and many of the NW are probably pissed or scared to be near JOn right now. Val has neither of these problems, in fact she would be a good bodyguard for him while he is out, much like Yukio and Wolverine :)

Gerrick 'Kingsblood', lol, it was right there for us to see, true enough. His sacrifice should be sufficient to bring Jon back if he can in fact trace his lineage all the way back, the only thing that worries me is how much the Wildlings exaggerate and flat out lie about things like this. Hopefully in this case, he will be telling the truth.

I also agree that he will have a spirit journey akin to Bran's while he is comatose, and I agree he will be guided by Bloodraven, or possibly from Bran himself.

The only thing I disagree with is Asha being sacrificed as well. While I agree that Bran is trying to reach her, Theon and Stannis through the crows and through the Weirwood at the lake, I don't think it will lead to her being executed.

As you said, if Dany can hatch 3 dragons with 1 human sacrifice I believe 1 sacrifice will be enough to bring Jon Snow back. I think Asha is physically too far away to be directly involved with resurrecting Jon.

MS Very good catch about southron ambitions and trying to further himself by marrying his three children south. History does repeat itself very often.

Anyway excellent reading comprehension!! I would be surprised if the resurrection process did not happen in the exact same way as you have described :)

Really Excellent work.

Questions: What do you think is Mel's motivation to go through so much trouble to save Jon? Does she already know who he is? I ask because IIRC correctly she does seem uncertain at the end of DwD. Could it be possible BR will send her a message as well?

[239JMFL34109]

lots of Jon fans seem to be hell-bent on seeing him become king... He will, but it will be a totally different type of king...

jon is my favorite character i want to stop this whole divine right of kings BS

[Fire Eater]

I did not read all the posts, expect the OP.

Fire Eater!!!! :drool: :cheers: Love it!

I have also been trying to figure out what will happen, how they will bring him back specifically without turning him into Thoros, Gregor or a zombie. I would say you are right on the money with this layout of events. That Jon Snow White thing is kind of hilarious, but it does make sense, Val must have some purpose here, it would make sense for her to be tending to Jon while he is sick anyway as this is women's work, and many of the NW are probably pissed or scared to be near JOn right now. Val has neither of these problems, in fact she would be a good bodyguard for him while he is out, much like Yukio and Wolverine :)

Gerrick 'Kingsblood', lol, it was right there for us to see, true enough. His sacrifice should be sufficient to bring Jon back if he can in fact trace his lineage all the way back, the only thing that worries me is how much the Wildlings exaggerate and flat out lie about things like this. Hopefully in this case, he will be telling the truth.

I also agree that he will have a spirit journey akin to Bran's while he is comatose, and I agree he will be guided by Bloodraven, or possibly from Bran himself.

The only thing I disagree with is Asha being sacrificed as well. While I agree that Bran is trying to reach her, Theon and Stannis through the crows and through the Weirwood at the lake, I don't think it will lead to her being executed.

As you said, if Dany can hatch 3 dragons with 1 human sacrifice I believe 1 sacrifice will be enough to bring Jon Snow back. I think Asha is physically too far away to be directly involved with resurrecting Jon.

MS Very good catch about southron ambitions and trying to further himself by marrying his three children south. History does repeat itself very often.

Anyway excellent reading comprehension!! I would be surprised if the resurrection process did not happen in the exact same way as you have described :)

Really Excellent work.

Questions: What do you think is Mel's motivation to go through so much trouble to save Jon? Does she already know who he is? I ask because IIRC correctly she does seem uncertain at the end of DwD. Could it be possible BR will send her a message as well?

Thank you

As to Asha, I don't think she would be killed as in executed, but she would fall in battle. She is getting ready for the Battle of Ice, and I think she would choose the most risky job, being on the island to draw the Freys to give the illusion of solid ground. Most would fall through the ice but a few might make it onto the island, including Hosteen Frey. She has a broken ankle to inhibit her, and in her last battle she was cornered against a tree by the clan champion. I think she would cornered against the weirwood by Hosteen, the strongest warrior in the Frey clan. She said she would rather "die as she lived, with an axe in her hand and a laugh upon her lips" in ADwD than be taken alive by the Ramsay Bolton's men, and she may just get that wish. As for Asha's proximity, all the weirwoods are connected to the greenseers. Although, to go on a tangent, I do wonder Tristifer's reaction when he sees that. My guess is he would be sad, and then go berserk; charging at Hosteen in a fury, and slay him.

As for Gerrick's lineage, Dany didn't need royalty to hatch the dragon eggs. Besides, I think being declared king is enough to pass for this prophecy giving how mundane some elements turn out to be.

Melisandre doesn't like to dream so I don't think there is any way BR could send her a message. She is clueless as to who Jon really is, and I think her contribution to Jon's reviving would be unwitting. She has sacrificed men before simply as offerings like Lord Sunglass and Ser Rambton's sons.

jon is my favorite character i want to stop this whole divine right of kings BS

GRRM already subverted the trope with Aerys and all the other claimants. Jon is going to be the exception to the rule, I think. He is chosen by fate, and not for his blood.

[Oafkeeper]

GRRM has ragged on fantasy for having some bad cliches. Sadly, he uses one of the worst ones a lot in his series, which is bringing back people from the dead.

Except it can only be done very soon after death which just makes it emergency healing and it cuts out big chunks of the person's memory. Beric couldn't remember anything about his life.

And Lady Stoneheart isn't Cat, she's a monster.

Would love to see a fantasy series where a death is really a death.

So most fantasy series not based on D&D or for children?

You damn casual.

[LongRider]

I did not read all the posts, expect the OP.

Fire Eater!!!! :drool: :cheers: Love it!

I have also been trying to figure out what will happen, how they will bring him back specifically without turning him into Thoros, Gregor or a zombie. I would say you are right on the money with this layout of events. That Jon Snow White thing is kind of hilarious, but it does make sense, Val must have some purpose here, it would make sense for her to be tending to Jon while he is sick anyway as this is women's work, and many of the NW are probably pissed or scared to be near JOn right now. Val has neither of these problems, in fact she would be a good bodyguard for him while he is out, much like Yukio and Wolverine :)

~~~~snip~~~

Jon did notice how Val and Snow Ghost looked like they 'belong' together.

D'erp! Thanks for the correction Fire Eater.

[239JMFL34109]

GRRM already subverted the trope with Aerys and all the other claimants. Jon is going to be the exception to the rule, I think. He is chosen by fate, and not for his blood.

i like the idea and think it is funny that the one person who is the rightful divine ruler is the one is going to ends the line of kings set up something like a proto-parliament.

[Fire Eater]

i like the idea and think it is funny that the one person who is the rightful divine ruler is the one is going to ends the line of kings set up something like a proto-parliament.

Actually, I'm leaning more towards a Great Council picking him in the end, doing what they should have done a long time ago instead of the Wo5K.

Jon did notice how Val and Snow looked like they 'belong' together.

I think you mean Val and Ghost. Val, to me, gives off a kind of Good Queen Alysanne vibe.

[Mithras]

Sometimes it seems that we go to great lengths to put King Jon on the Iron Throne of the magical land of Targarya. Why on earth after all the blood sweat and tears, to remove their Targaryen overlords would the Lords vote to subjugate themselves to another one?

Is Westeros in this big a need for a centralized government? It seems they did pretty well without one for several thousand years. Sure they had their fair share of wars, but they still did even with their dragon overlords and at least back then no one was napalming thousands of them into ash at once.

Most of those Lords will fight for putting this Targ (Dany) or that Targ (fAegon) to the IT, both of whom will most probably die before the end. Most of those Lords will lose their heads, men, wealth, lands, properties and whatnot. The Realm will be devastated and bankrupt. Someone will need to find the necessary funds/resources and rebuild the Realm, heal the wounds and especially not provoke any further civil war.

I think there will be plenty of reasons why an average Lord would like to see a strong character as the King of Westeros instead of a divided Realm.

Because of the bang up job he did as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch?

Jon’s mission as the LC of the NW has not finished yet. So far, no one could have done better than him. Even before the civil war, the NW was an archaic and outdated institute which needed heavy reforms. People blame Jon for meddling into the affairs of the Realm and putting the NW at risk. But it was the Realm that meddled into the affairs of the NW first. Why people prefer to ignore this point is an interesting question.

Now if the kid could corral himself a trio of dragons then he could crown himself I suppose, and the Great Council, his Nights Watch vows or whoever else objects be damned.

Where will Jon find three dragons and why will he break his vows and crown himself? What is the guarantee that those three dragons will be strong enough to subdue Westeros and why should people take an oathbreaker as their king?

[Durran Durrandon]

Jon’s mission as the LC of the NW has not finished yet. So far, no one could have done better than him. Even before the civil war, the NW was an archaic and outdated institute which needed heavy reforms. People blame Jon for meddling into the affairs of the Realm and putting the NW at risk. But it was the Realm that meddled into the affairs of the NW first. Why people prefer to ignore this point is an interesting question.

^^^^^ This! I thought Jon was doing an outstanding job up to the point where he got shanked. He saved and reinforced the wall in the only way he could. He is hatching plans to feed the people at the wall, making him the only lord in the series who has seriously tried to address the -- "winter is coming, and what the crap are we going to eat?" -- problem. He has denied the Others an army of wildlings,and in the process saved a portion of an entire people from necromantic genocide. Jon rocks. Did he loose it when he got the pink letter? Sure. How would you take it if a psychotic lunatic like Ramsey told you he was torturing your kid sister? Jon snaps, but not so far that he doesn't provide a valid legal justification for his actions. He is not intervening. He is responding to a threat to himself, the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, totally valid.