Jon's "Resurrection"

[Greymoon]

Warning Incoming Pot Shrapnel

Under the sea the crows are white as snow.

The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow.

The last kiss it is called, and many a time I [Thoros] saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died . . . But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open.

In "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" as the dwarfs thought Snow White was dead when she was in a coma, and she was kept in a glass coffin (Jon sees ice scraping off the Wall and thinks of glass gardens). This is the part of the theory that I regard to be the most crackpot; Jon, a prince, may wake up the moment Val, called the "wildling princess," kisses him. Also, add in that Valkyries gave the kiss of death to fallen warriors to enter Valhalla to prepare for Ragnarok, marching with Odin against the frost giants, just as Westeros is in a Ragnarok situation with Jon fighting against the Others. Beric and Cat were resurrected through the last kiss which is bestowed on servants of the Lord of Light as they died; a kiss of fire so to speak. I think Jon will wake up when Val gives him a kind of last kiss, only this may be a kiss of ice.

Interesting ;)

a few things to consider: there's no kiss in the original tale of Snow White...the Prince's servants stumble over some roots in the forest floor, while carrying the coffin. The tremor, causes the piece of apple to dislodge from Snow White's throat, and she wakes...

...Snow White/Evil Queen, reminds me of Margaery/Cersei dynamics.....Mirror Mirror on the Wall, who is the Fairest of them All? some see Margarete von Waldeck as the inspiration for Snow White, she died at age 21, probably from poison.... or could Bowen Marsh (or the Letter writer?) be the 'evil stepmother'? Shadow Shadow on the Wall, who is the Bravest of them All?...

It's only the Disney version that has Prince charming kiss Snow White.... imo, the end was mixed up with the Sleeping Beauty fairy tale, also called the Briar Rose (>> the blue rose growing from a chick of ice; Jon did not intend to be remembered as Sleepy Jon Snow, Jon II, p. 107 DwD US Hardcover). An earlier version of this tale, is the 'Sun, Moon, and Talia' wherein the Princess, Talia, is raped* by the prince, falls pregnant with twins, and only wakes when her son suckles on her thumb.

*in MS & T, iirc, Simon is attacked by a witch called Skodi who attempts to rape him, and wants to use his blood. We know Mel is interested in Kings' blood, but she also needs other err...things, for her shadow 'babies'...

In any case, the Sleeping Beauty tale is also associated to the sleeping Brynhild, a Valkyrie:

Sigurd's First Meeting with Brynhild

After slaying the dragon, Sigurd rode on to Frakkland where he saw a light on a mountain, “as if a fire were burning and the brightness reached up to the heavens”. He approached the light and found, “a rampart of shields with a banner above it”. Sigurd saw a man lying in the rampart asleep. When he removed the helmet he saw that the man was actually a woman. She was fully dressed in armor, which was, “so tight that it seemed to have grown into her flesh”.

Using his sword Gram, Sigurd sliced through the woman’s coat of mail as easily as if it was made of cloth. She awoke and asked what could be strong enough to cut her armor or if it was Sigurd who had come, “the one with the helmet of Fafnir and carries Fafnir’s bane in his hand”. She knew whom he was who had come and Sigurd also knew that this warrior woman was none other than Brynhild, the daughter of a king, and a woman of great beauty and wisdom.

Brynhild then told the story of how she had fallen into that deep sleep. There was a fight between two kings, Hjalmgunnar and Agnar (also known as Audabrodir). Odin promised Hjalmgunnar victory in the battle but Brynhild struck him down in battle. This angered Odin so he stabbed Brynhild with a sleeping thorn and told her that she must marry someday. She made a vow that she would only marry a man who knew no fear; this later proves to be Sigurd. Brynhild was a very wise woman. Sigurd then wanted to learn “the ways of mighty things” from Brynhild and she said she would teach him anything that she knew about, “runes or other matters that concern all things”. Brynhild gave Sigurd a full goblet and they drank together.

There's a lot of references to myth and folklore at the wall.

1. Abel, the first murder victim, first human to die, first martyr in the bible, slain by his jealous brother, Cain. Abel and Cain, a crime of fracticide. It's the name Mance Rayder choses for himself.

2. Mance went to Winterfell accompanied by Willow and Rowan, two characters from the Wicker Man. The Wicker Man, is a modern rendition of John Barleycorn.

3. Tom Barleycorn, a brother of the Night's Watch, appears in DwD for the first time, on the day, Jon, Satin, Leathers and others, seek out the weirwood groove so that the new recruits may take their vows. They meet wildlings, who chose the groove because it was 'as good a place as any to die'

4. Val, has the Valkyrie thing going on...etc...

I have an alternative for Mary Magdalene...Satin. ;) Mary Magdalene was wrongly identified as a 'harlot' ...."the reputation still lingers. The misidentification of St. Mary Magdalene as a repentant prostitute was followed by many writers and artists into the 1990s."

That doesn't mean Val can't be among the first to witness the 'resurrection', Magdalene wasn't alone after all, but accompanied by at least two other women...

She whom Luke calls the sinful woman, whom John calls Mary, we believe to be the Mary from whom seven devils were ejected according to Mark. And what did these seven devils signify, if not all the vices?

It is clear, brothers, that the woman previously used the unguent to perfume her flesh in forbidden acts. What she therefore displayed more scandalously, she was now offering to God in a more praiseworthy manner. She had coveted with earthly eyes, but now through penitence these are consumed with tears. She displayed her hair to set off her face, but now her hair dries her tears. She had spoken proud things with her mouth, but in kissing the Lord’s feet, she now planted her mouth on the Redeemer’s feet. For every delight, therefore, she had had in herself, she now immolated herself. She turned the mass of her crimes to virtues, in order to serve God entirely in penance.

— Pope Gregory the Great (homily XXXIII)

ETA: Mary Magdalene was one of Jesus's most prominent disciples. Satin, the boy from Oldtown, former follower of the Seven actually decided to take his vows before a weirwood tree, according to Jon's faith. Much like Sam, Satin, is a sort of new convert to the Old Religion.

[ambi76]

"Two kings to wake the dragon. First the father, then the son, so they both die kings"

I think I missed where this is from but the only thing I can come up with here is Drogo/Rhaego? Otherwise Stannis, Jon, or F(Aegon) need a son asap.

[Greymoon]

I think I missed where this is from but the only thing I can come up with here is Drogo/Rhaego? Otherwise Stannis, Jon, or F(Aegon) need a son asap.

the requirement is not for a father and a son, but for two kings.... or queens, probably.... And why do they need a son? so they can sacrifice him? :(

[LongRider]

I think I missed where this is from but the only thing I can come up with here is Drogo/Rhaego? Otherwise Stannis, Jon, or F(Aegon) need a son asap.

In FfC, Maester Aemon tells Sam that the translation of the PtwP was wrong and the wording could be for a boy or a girl. If that is true, then could this apply to the 'Two kings' prophecy as well?

[ambi76]

Well, if it's just two kings or queens that's easy, what's with the brazillion running around Westeros and beyond. But father-son kings would be harder to accomplish these days, except we just let Tommen's real parentage slide.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Is Jon dead? Define dead. OK, his consciousness will flee to Ghost of course, but will his heart be beating? Will he be breathing? If he isn't dead, why does he need a sacrifice to resurrect him? He just needs medical care. As to his oath, I'll leave it up to the Watch. If they stand over him and say his watch is over, he's fulfilled it.

I don't think Mel really knows what she's doing. She wanted to burn Edric to wake a stone dragon on Dragonstone. Jon is afraid she'll burn Mance or his son to ... do what? She has no stone dragon to wake at the Wall.

Val and Jon in a reverse Snow White scenario is intriguing, though. But I see it from a different angle.

Jon has been referred to as "Corn King" by Mormont's Raven (assumed by many to be warged by Bloodraven). The Corn King is a vegetation deity, who is typically born at Yule (the winter solstice), matures throughout the year, weds the Spring Maid at Beltane (around May 1) to insure/restore fertility to the fields, and dies either at Lughnasadh (Lammas, Aug 1), Mabon (the Fall equinox), or Samhain (Nov. 1).

If this actually applies to Jon (he is destined to "return fertility to the land"), then Fire Eater's idea of Val waking him with a kiss may actually be an Other plot. Val resembles the Night's Queen of legend far too closely to be a coincidence. A simple reading of the Night's King story (meaning reading it as told without any fancy interpretations) reveals that shortly after the Others were defeated and the Wall built, a beautiful cold female (a female Other) attempted to seduce the LCotNW, and succeeded. Val has been trying to seduce Jon for quite a while. If Jon is brought back by Val of Winter (NQ 2.0), then he becomes the Winter King. Fertility doesn't return. The Others win.

If Jon is to do his job as Corn King, he must be brought back by a pro-fertility force. Presumably Earth Singers. (CotF, Bloodraven, Bran, Howland Reed, or some combination.) He must eventually wed the Spring Maid. Remember Seasons of My Love?

I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair.
I loved a maid as red as autumn, with sunset in her hair.
I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair.

What's the fourth line going to be?

I loved a maid as green as spring, with sunrise in her hair. (Or substitute new or fresh for green, but I think green fits better.)

That's not Val, Dany, or Marge. That's Meera.

[Greymoon]

Well, if it's just two kings or queens that's easy, what's with the brazillion running around Westeros and beyond. But father-son kings would be harder to accomplish these days, except we just let Tommen's real parentage slide.

It is just two Kings. First the father (Mance), then the son (Aemon Steelsong), so that Aemon inherits the title form his dead father. The reasoning is that as long as Mance lives, Aemon does not fulfill the requirement because he is no King. Hence, Mance, the father, must die first, so that both die as Kings.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Thank you

As to Asha, I don't think she would be killed as in executed, but she would fall in battle. She is getting ready for the Battle of Ice, and I think she would choose the most risky job, being on the island to draw the Freys to give the illusion of solid ground. Most would fall through the ice but a few might make it onto the island, including Hosteen Frey. She has a broken ankle to inhibit her, and in her last battle she was cornered against a tree by the clan champion. I think she would cornered against the weirwood by Hosteen, the strongest warrior in the Frey clan. She said she would rather "die as she lived, with an axe in her hand and a laugh upon her lips" in ADwD than be taken alive by the Ramsay Bolton's men, and she may just get that wish. As for Asha's proximity, all the weirwoods are connected to the greenseers. Although, to go on a tangent, I do wonder Tristifer's reaction when he sees that. My guess is he would be sad, and then go berserk; charging at Hosteen in a fury, and slay him.

As for Gerrick's lineage, Dany didn't need royalty to hatch the dragon eggs. Besides, I think being declared king is enough to pass for this prophecy giving how mundane some elements turn out to be.

Melisandre doesn't like to dream so I don't think there is any way BR could send her a message. She is clueless as to who Jon really is, and I think her contribution to Jon's reviving would be unwitting. She has sacrificed men before simply as offerings like Lord Sunglass and Ser Rambton's sons.

GRRM already subverted the trope with Aerys and all the other claimants. Jon is going to be the exception to the rule, I think. He is chosen by fate, and not for his blood.

Ah! I see what you mean about Asha, that could be the way it plays out. But just to be clear, you think that Bran is trying to lure her out to the tree so that her 'sacrifice' during battle will happen in time to help save Jon?

[Durran Durrandon]

I think we might be making this a bit complicated. I don't recall why two kings are supposedly needed, and I don't entirely buy it. Maybe someone can help me with this.

That said, I know how I would like this to play out. The maesters cremate Aemon down in Oldtown and that sacrifice, of the only living person, who should technically be king right now, resurrect Jon. That won't happen.

The Night Watch is about to be destroyed in the next 15 minute period following the shanking of Jon. The wildings are going to gut Marsh and crew for shanking Jon. They are going to gut the Queen's Men for messing with their giant. The Nights Watch loyal to Jon will join them. Val is going to take over. The first act of Lord Val after gutting the remaining opponents will be to burn the unclean child. I am working under the premise than Stannis already dead, and in this case queens blood, the death of Shireen will draw the dragon from stone and resurrect Jon. I am pretty sure he is going to kill Val for burning Shireen, and then reassert his control over the Lord of the Flies situation that is brewing. I could be wrong.

[Fisch]

Anyone wonder if Mel can/will revive Jon the same "simple" way Thoros revived Berdic?

[BalerionTheCat]

As to his oath, I'll leave it up to the Watch. If they stand over him and say his watch is over, he's fulfilled it.

My view.

If the remaining NW brothers do their "and now his watch is ended" ceremony, then he will be released of his vows. But they would do that only in front of a pyre while Jon is burning. Meaning Jon must be really dead and the fire will heal him rather than burning him. More or less what happened to Victarion. Certainly how R'hllor's would apply his magic.

I think some don't want Jon to be dead because they don't want him to be like Dondarrion or Uncat. I think Jon will return, different, but not something dreadful. AA must be RE-BORN, and Jon resurrection could be this reborn. And whoever is AA, he will need some beef-up. And around this time, Barristant is observing a "thin red slash" on the eastern horizon. That could be the prophetized comet.

[Durran Durrandon]

Anyone wonder if Mel can/will revive Jon the same "simple" way Thoros revived Berdic?

I am failing to see how that allows anyone to have fun constructing elaborate fan theories.

[Durran Durrandon]

And around this time, Barristant is observing a "thin red slash" on the eastern horizon. That could be the prophetized comet.

Not just around the same time, but in the very next chapter. The description is infuriating though, because it kind of sound like it could be the returning comet, in very auspicious position, heralding the dawn of the sun. Or that thin line could actualy be the sun peeking above the horizon. It is hard to tell, because of the way it is written.

[Mithras]

Not just around the same time, but in the very next chapter. The description is infuriating though, because it kind of sound like it could be the returning comet, in very auspicious position, heralding the dawn of the sun. Or that thin line could actualy be the sun peeking above the horizon. It is hard to tell, because of the way it is written.

When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”

“For the Watch.” Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

THE QUEEN’S HAND

The Dornish prince was three days dying.

He took his last shuddering breath in the bleak black dawn, as cold rain hissed from a dark sky to turn the brick streets of the old city into rivers. The rain had drowned the worst of the fires, but wisps of smoke still rose from the smoldering ruin that had been the pyramid of Hazkar, and the great black pyramid of Yherizan where Rhaegal had made his lair hulked in the gloom like a fat woman bedecked with glowing orange jewels.

Perhaps the gods are not deaf after all, Ser Barristan Selmy reflected as he watched those distant embers. If not for the rain, the fires might have consumed all of Meereen by now.

He saw no sign of dragons, but he had not expected to. The dragons did not like the rain. A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

Wow, I never noticed that before! The timeline also seems to agree. I have been lately thinking that the Red Comet will return and this might be the sign of it.

I have another crackpot theory that this time the red comet will crash and it will create a dust cloud which will block the sun. That will give the Others enough power to pierce the magic at the Wall or the cave of the CotF.

BTW, these quotes seem to be related:

“Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!”

“Under the sea, it snows up,” said the fool, “and the rain is dry as bone. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

The dragons did not like the rain.

[Lord of Nutella]

To the guy with Val is NQ2.0. : no, just no. It makes no sense at all. She has white cloathes and blue eyes, thats it.

[Fire Eater]

Interesting ;)

a few things to consider: there's no kiss in the original tale of Snow White...the Prince's servants stumble over some roots in the forest floor, while carrying the coffin. The tremor, causes the piece of apple to dislodge from Snow White's throat, and she wakes...

...Snow White/Evil Queen, reminds me of Margaery/Cersei dynamics.....Mirror Mirror on the Wall, who is the Fairest of them All? some see Margarete von Waldeck as the inspiration for Snow White, she died at age 21, probably from poison.... or could Bowen Marsh (or the Letter writer?) be the 'evil stepmother'? Shadow Shadow on the Wall, who is the Bravest of them All?...

It's only the Disney version that has Prince charming kiss Snow White.... imo, the end was mixed up with the Sleeping Beauty fairy tale, also called the Briar Rose (>> the blue rose growing from a chick of ice; Jon did not intend to be remembered as Sleepy Jon Snow, Jon II, p. 107 DwD US Hardcover). An earlier version of this tale, is the 'Sun, Moon, and Talia' wherein the Princess, Talia, is raped* by the prince, falls pregnant with twins, and only wakes when her son suckles on her thumb.

*in MS & T, iirc, Simon is attacked by a witch called Skodi who attempts to rape him, and wants to use his blood. We know Mel is interested in Kings' blood, but she also needs other err...things, for her shadow 'babies'...

I read about the original Snow White tale, the kiss was added later on. Sleeping Beauty fit with the blue rose given one of the original names of the tale was as you mentioned, Briar Rose, and "Sleepy Jon Snow" also made me consider that reference. I think GRRM was incorporating bits of both stories to give hints. I don't know why I shied away from mentioning Sleeping Beauty, I guess I wanted to keep it from sounding too crackpot.

There's a lot of references to myth and folklore at the wall.

1. Abel, the first murder victim, first human to die, first martyr in the bible, slain by his jealous brother, Cain. Abel and Cain, a crime of fracticide. It's the name Mance Rayder choses for himself.

2. Mance went to Winterfell accompanied by Willow and Rowan, two characters from the Wicker Man. The Wicker Man, is a modern rendition of John Barleycorn.

3. Tom Barleycorn, a brother of the Night's Watch, appears in DwD for the first time, on the day, Jon, Satin, Leathers and others, seek out the weirwood groove so that the new recruits may take their vows. They meet wildlings, who chose the groove because it was 'as good a place as any to die'

4. Val, has the Valkyrie thing going on...etc...

I have an alternative for Mary Magdalene...Satin. ;) Mary Magdalene was wrongly identified as a 'harlot' ...."the reputation still lingers. The misidentification of St. Mary Magdalene as a repentant prostitute was followed by many writers and artists into the 1990s."

That doesn't mean Val can't be among the first to witness the 'resurrection', Magdalene wasn't alone after all, but accompanied by at least two other women...

ETA: Mary Magdalene was one of Jesus's most prominent disciples. Satin, the boy from Oldtown, former follower of the Seven actually decided to take his vows before a weirwood tree, according to Jon's faith. Much like Sam, Satin, is a sort of new convert to the Old Religion.

Mentioning Tom Barleycorn, a reference to John Barleycorn, taking his vows at the weirwood grove, and it "was good a place as any to die" has made me consider along with Mithras's arguments that Val might take Jon's body to the weirwood grove for a proper ceremonial rite. Wun Wun would likely help her out; he is her assigned protector after all. The Wall is supposedly a barrier to magic, and taking Jon's body out of the ice cells might make it possible for Jon's spirit to return to his body.

Is Jon dead? Define dead. OK, his consciousness will flee to Ghost of course, but will his heart be beating? Will he be breathing? If he isn't dead, why does he need a sacrifice to resurrect him? He just needs medical care. As to his oath, I'll leave it up to the Watch. If they stand over him and say his watch is over, he's fulfilled it.

Drogo wasn't dead, yet MMD needed a sacrifice for his reviving. There is even the theory that Lady's life paid for Bran's. Death pays for life, and Jon would be in a near-death state.

I don't think Val is trying to seduce Jon, but ever seen anyone one of those romcoms where the girl tries to get the guy? I think Val has nothing to do with the Others. Winter is the Starks' season, not a purely negative season.

Ah! I see what you mean about Asha, that could be the way it plays out. But just to be clear, you think that Bran is trying to lure her out to the tree so that her 'sacrifice' during battle will happen in time to help save Jon?

Tbh, I really don't know. I don't know if the Bran we know would willingly sacrifice somebody; BR, probably.

[Durran Durrandon]

When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”

“For the Watch.” Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

THE QUEEN’S HAND

The Dornish prince was three days dying.

He took his last shuddering breath in the bleak black dawn, as cold rain hissed from a dark sky to turn the brick streets of the old city into rivers. The rain had drowned the worst of the fires, but wisps of smoke still rose from the smoldering ruin that had been the pyramid of Hazkar, and the great black pyramid of Yherizan where Rhaegal had made his lair hulked in the gloom like a fat woman bedecked with glowing orange jewels.

Perhaps the gods are not deaf after all, Ser Barristan Selmy reflected as he watched those distant embers. If not for the rain, the fires might have consumed all of Meereen by now.

He saw no sign of dragons, but he had not expected to. The dragons did not like the rain. A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

Wow, I never noticed that before! The timeline also seems to agree. I have been lately thinking that the Red Comet will return and this might be the sign of it.

I have another crackpot theory that this time the red comet will crash and it will create a dust cloud which will block the sun. That will give the Others enough power to pierce the magic at the Wall or the cave of the CotF.

BTW, these quotes seem to be related:

“Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!”

“Under the sea, it snows up,” said the fool, “and the rain is dry as bone. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

The dragons did not like the rain.

So yeah, Martin is clearly making a literary connecting here. I am not convinced it is the comet, it could just be the sun starting to rise, except he writes "where the sun might soon appear" not "where the sun began to appear". It could just be a stylistic preference, but it makes it sound like it is not the sun.

If it is the comet, and this is where I geek out, it is on its second pass, reappearing this time after sling shooting past the sun and reappearing inside of Planetos' orbit, before heading into the outer solar system. Because it is in the interior solar system, it would only be visible just before dawn or just after sunset, like Venus appears for us. Why does it matter? Well, in ancient Greece, when Venus appeared just before dawn it was called Phosphorus. In Latin it wss called called Lucifer. Both translate into English as "light bringer", because it heralds the rising sun and the new dawn.

I'm not sure what I think of the comet hitting the planet, but this planet seems to get hit with magic rocks, that get worshiped or forged into sword , once in a while, so who knows?

[Greymoon]

I read about the original Snow White tale, the kiss was added later on. Sleeping Beauty fit with the blue rose given one of the original names of the tale was as you mentioned, Briar Rose, and "Sleepy Jon Snow" also made me consider that reference. I think GRRM was incorporating bits of both stories to give hints. I don't know why I shied away from mentioning Sleeping Beauty, I guess I wanted to keep it from sounding too crackpot.

Mentioning Tom Barleycorn, a reference to John Barleycorn, taking his vows at the weirwood grove, and it "was good a place as any to die" has made me consider along with Mithras's arguments that Val might take Jon's body to the weirwood grove for a proper ceremonial rite. Wun Wun would likely help her out; he is her assigned protector after all. The Wall is supposedly a barrier to magic, and taking Jon's body out of the ice cells might make it possible for Jon's spirit to return to his body.

I don't think it's crackpot at all! the references to the fairy tales are definitely there, the difficulty is in determining what it means... Snow White is a tale of jealousy and poisoning that induces a death like state, the Briar Rose a tale of coma and rape + childbirth. or, if one takes the later version, of a kiss. So, from these references we can at the very least say that Jon isn't quite dead :)

It seems Mithras and I have argued a similar point concerning the weirwood groove. Indeed Val could bring Jon's body out -- I've not really considered her, though I should have, and argued instead for Satin, because Satin is present along with Tom Barleycorn, and Leathers, at that weirwood groove.

There is six new recruits, Arron and Emrick from Fairislands, Harren the Horse (as a side note, the biblical black horse symbolizes famine or justice), Leathers and Jak. Two are wildlings, one is from Molestown. Satin, Arron and Emrick are southerners, though, so why take their vows at the weirwood tree? I think, right there, is a sign of Jon unknowingly influencing people... while Arron and Emrik sort of go underground after that, like Tom Barleycorn, too, Satin and Leathers do develop into somewhat important side characters, so their appearance in this particular chapter seems relevant to me.

We could have a group of people, loyal to Jon, take out his body for a proper burial rite...no? Counting Satin and Val, for ex.

[Mithras]

Jon brought two corpses from the grove and they are still in the ice cells where Jon will shortly be put in. In the quote above, just after Jon was stabbed, we have the Barristan chapter starting with "The Dornish Prince was three days dying." We can assume that Jon will be "dead" in the ice cells for three days which makes it another parallel between Jon and Jesus. Those two corpses Jon brought from the grove might be the two witnesses but I don't know what purpose will they serve.

[bemused]

Yes, I noticed that Barristan quote,too ..

A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

and this one from Barristan's duel with Khrazz...

Blood welled from Khrazz’s wounds. That only seemed to make him wilder.

I quoted them in my breakdown of the assassination scene in the Jon Re-Read thread (which I won't repeat in full here because it's long ;) )

GRRM tells us Wick slashed at Jon (twice) resulting only in a graze ... but blood welled between Jon's fingers. Barristan informs us that the blood preceeds the pain. Blood also welled from Khrazz's wounds. Here's how I put them together ...

Jon receives what might be called a thin red slash, blood wells, but the pain only comes as he's knocked face down into the snow, and as he thinks , Stick them with the pointy end, and whispers "Ghost,"

Those things have to be described distinctly when writing, but can all happen in a couple of heartbeats, or even simultaneously.

Blood welling from Khrazz's wounds only seemed to make him wilder..and we've seen Jon stunned and on the point of defeat (tasting blood in his mouth), come back in what could be called a "battle frenzy" to defeat his opponent and have to be dragged off him. Khrazz isn't even a warg .. Jon is, which I think could exaggerate the effect.

So now look back at the first quote..

A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. This is another way of saying the sun will rise. Barristan only thinks "might" because in that scene, it's clouded over and raining. He doesn't really doubt that it will rise, it can't really be prevented from rising , but he just might not see it because of the weather.

Then consider that GRRM may want us to think of the equation, sun = son. Jon has been marked with a thin red slash , but the sun son ( of Ned Lyanna, of Rhaegar , wolf and dragon) might soon appear, in spite of what we seem to see.

"Ghost," could easily be the beginning of that "Ghost, to me." that we've read so often. Jon has resisted full warging but he may be about to jump in at the deep end, not in an unconscious state.

I'd like to get into some of the other excellent points, but it's time for my wolf dream. Tomorrow, then.