Jon's "Resurrection"

[Oafkeeper]

Is there any evidence at all in the books that sacrificing to the old gods can resurrect life?

Is there any evidence they exist?

[Mithras]

Excellent analysis.

While sacrificing ANY blood may be good enough for raising favorable wind, I really think King's blood is necessary for the "waking dragon" stuff. I still believe Dany got three dragons because not only Khal Drogo and Rhaego were dead, but earlier, Viserys. I think Miri Maz Dur's significance isn't in her death but in the spells she was chanting "to not burn" that kept Dany from burning.

I guess, though, whether a blood sacrifice is needed for Jon depends on if he is dead. If he is just in a coma, he should be able to just wake. Not to discount Val's kiss waking him--I like that and the evidence is good.

But maybe the "king's deaths" (Asha and Theon?) could be used to wake ice dragons or stone dragons.

I agree that there are different levels of magic in ASOIAF. But I don’t think king’s blood is what determines the power of the magic. I think the sacrifice of own kids/seeds qualifies as the fuel for darkest and strongest spells. We saw that in Dany and Stannis. Dany hatched the dragon eggs with the sacrifice of Rhaego. Stannis fathered shadow assassins with his seeds. These were among the highest levels of magic we saw in the series. This also makes me wonder what a powerful thing was the castration of Varys and to what purpose it was used.

[Queen Whore]

I really like this theory. I lean that way as well but didn't have the quotes to support myself. Bravo to the OPs for putting together a well thought out piece of work!

[Muggle]

I think that is what happened in Bran's case. Lady's death was used as a blood sacrifice by Bloodraven and he dumped Bran's soul back into his body and healed him. Jon's case will be very similar.

This was not preformed in front of a heart tho, How would this blood enter the weirwood network.

In the dreams Bran had at the time its clear its Brans choice to wake up. I recall something about there being dozes if not hundreds of bodies on the ground, People with the gift who were unable to fly. Bran chose to fly instead of falling to his death and thus chose to wake up. Its important to notice it was Brans choice. BR did not force him to fly or wake up.

[Mithras]

This was not preformed in front of a heart tho, How would this blood enter the weirwood network.

In the dreams Bran had at the time its clear its Brans choice to wake up. I recall something about there being dozes if not hundreds of bodies on the ground, People with the gift who were unable to fly. Bran chose to fly instead of falling to his death and thus chose to wake up. Its important to notice it was Brans choice. BR did not force him to fly or wake up.

With time, a greenseer learns to see beyond the trees.

Bran's choice was important but considering he was partially in the realm of the dead and BR knows a thing or two about necromancy (cough Coldhands cough) it is not a big stretch that he found and guided Bran back to the realm of he living.

[UtherSnow]

I like how this is put together. I'm going to head off and read it again. Some is close to what I've been wondering already, plus there's some that, to be honest, looks like I've either missed or misread.... All as usual for me. Blurred vision......

[Frey family reunion]

I like some of this (well probably most of it) but would suggest the following:

why does the OP believe that GRRM is not a fan of full scale resurrections?? What was Cat if not a full scale resurrection?

Anyway, I think the OP does address the main points Jon probably did "warg" into Ghost and he will probably be at some point resurrected as well.

My question is why can't both events happen simultaneously?

Hint: Jon's story arc is following the arc of the Norse sword Gram or Gramr (the precursor to Excalibur).

In Norse mythology the smith, Wayland, forges a magic sword Gram. Odin takes the sword to a wedding feast and amidst the lords and ladies at the feast he thrusts the sword into a tree growing in the midst of the hall, Barnstokkr. Odin tells the assemblage that the Lord that can pull the sword free from the tree could own the sword. The only lord capable of the feat is Sigurd. Later Sigurd breaks the sword in two against a black cloaked soldier. Sigurd gives the sword to his wife and tells her to hold on to the sword until it can be reforged and then be given to his unborn son. When the sword is reforged, it becomes so powerful that it can split an anvil in two. The newly forged sword is given to Sigurn's son Sigfried, who uses the sword to slay the dragon Fafnir.

Jon is the sword, his primary tutor being Donal Noye, the smith, who teaches Jon how to become a leader of men. Lord Commander Mormont, playing the part of Odin, makes Jon swear an oath that he would take no part in the wars of the seven kingdoms (this occurred after Jon runs away to try and join his brother, Robb in battle). Effectively Mormont traps Jon into the Wall (standing in for Barnstokkr). Two kings try and pull Jon away from his oath (thus try to free the sword from Barnstokkr), Mance Rayder and later Stannis Baratheon. Ultimately one of these Kings succeeded (whoever wrote the Pink letter). Jon finally breaks his vows and marches on Winterfell. However, Jon is then killed by his brothers in black (the black cloaked soldiers) who stab him for his violation of his Night's Watch oath. Jon has two thoughts as he is being stabbed:

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold ...

Now let's take a look at the "magic swords" that we have been introduced to.

First we have Jon's bastard sword, Longclaw. The hilt of the sword is decorated with a white stone direwolf with garnet eyes:

Ghost was curled up asleep beside the door, but he lifted his head at the sound of Jon's boots. The direwolf's red eyes were darker than garnets and wiser than men. Jon knelt, scratched his ear, and showed him the pommel of the sword. "Look. It's you."

Basically consider Jon's escape into Ghost as the hilt of the sword. And Jon's resurrection as UnJon or Jon Stoneheart or whatever you want to call him as the blade, or the sword without the hilt:

Jon could feel her (Melisandre's) warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister. "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."

"A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. "A sword without ahilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about.

Val put a foot into a stirrup, swung her leg over her horse's back, and looked down from the saddle. "Do you remember what my sister told you?"

"Yes." A sword without a hilt, with no safe way to hold it. But Melisandre had the right of it. Even a sword without a hilt is better than an empty hand when foes are all around you.

So after Jon reaches out to Ghost, what is his last thought? Stick them with the pointy end.

The pointy end being the blade of the sword. The positive aspects of Jon escape into Ghost, the vengeful negative aspect of Jon stays with him as he dies, only to come to the forefront when he is resurrected.

The next sword to consider is Ice. Ice is broken down into two other swords, Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.

If Jon is indeed broken into two beings (wolf Jon and Jon Stoneheart) the analogy continues. Wolf Jon is Oathkeeper while Jon Stoneheart is Widow's Wail.

Now let us go back to Dany's visions during the blood ritual with MMD and Drogo:

Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

I contend that Dany is seeing the two aspects of Jon, Jon the wolf (or the hilt) and Jon Stoneheart (Jon the blade).

[239JMFL34109]

why does the OP believe that GRRM is not a fan of full scale resurrections?? What was Cat if not a full scale resurrection?

i think that is a misunderstanding. GRRM i think says he dislikes gandalf coming back better and stronger as the white. he wants these things to cost something. i like the version of resurrection in babylon 5 were there had to be a fight to resurrect, it changed the characters personality a little as death is a big deal, and shorten the characters lifespan otherwise.

[Fire Eater]

I agree that he's not dead. But I'm not so sure who the 'two kings to wake a dragon' are at this point. What if it were Stannis and Shireen, though?

That would put Davos's story out of whack as he got an army for Stannis and Rickon only for Stannis and his heir to die. I don't think we will see them go until ADoS.

I think the bloody direwolf is obviously Ned’s ghost. Jon dreamed of going into the crypts and at the end, a sad-eyed grey direwolf spotted with blood was waiting for him. On the way, the Kings of Winter told him that he was no Stark. There seems to be a parallel between this scene and the fever dreams of Dany in which the ghosts of kings told her to run faster and faster until she grew wings and flew. Dany’s dream is about the fulfillment of her destiny. So, we can say that learning R+L=J is related to the fulfillment of Jon’s destiny as he is the Prince that was Promised and his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

In short, the promise of Ned was to tell Jon about R+L=J when he comes to age but he died before he could keep his promise. As a result, his spirit lingers and Jon will talk to him in his dream after going into a coma due to stabbing. Ned will keep his promise and tell Jon about his real parents. That will be the “waking dragon from stone” in the prophecies.

Since the prince that was promised prophecy will be fulfilled from that moment on, I think George can confirm that Jon=TPtwP through Bloodraven in TWoW.

I saw the parallel between Jon and Dany's dreams as well with their royal ancestors down a hall.

I think Jon's soul and everything that made him Jon (except his corporeal form) will transfer to ghost. His body will be resurrected by Mel but what comes back will be a shadow of the former Jon, a thrall to Mel's whims and what will eventually become the Nights King 2.0. Ghost and Jon's soul will flee drawn by Bran towards the cave. There Bran will teach him the arts of skinchanging so Jon will take over Hodor and, armed with Dark Sister, he will confront his body regaining control of his mortal coil.

I find that highly unlikely. Bran would rather return him to his own body, and I doubt Melisandre would make Jon's body a thrall given she has more important things to do. I think she would focus more on getting a new LC who could be accommodating to her desires.

snip

The problem with Melisandre resurrecting him with the last kiss as I pointed out in the OP, is that it would be a trite overuse of that trick, and Jon's character arc would stop there.

I like some of this (well probably most of it) but would suggest the following:

why does the OP believe that GRRM is not a fan of full scale resurrections?? What was Cat if not a full scale resurrection?

It isn't a full-scale resurrection as she isn't the person she was before, and she wasn't what one would call alive, as she doesn't do the things that are required of the living like sleep.

snip

Because his last POV indicates he went into Ghost already. I doubt he was stabbed just to be revived just that second, and to have spent some time in Ghost for a few seconds. I think along with the new knowledge he gains from BranRaven, he develops a newfound appreciation for his warging that he originally rejected. I expect him to go to Borroq to serve as his mentor in fully developing his skinchanging abilities.

I have argued Jon wasn't breaking his vows when dealing with the Boltons since they did pose a clear threat to the NW. Jon wasn't killed for that, but Marsh's assassination of Jon was planned. I never considered the Gramr angle. I think the vision in Dany's tent was wighted Othor when Jon threw the burning drapes on him and Ghost. I think Jon's essence will remain intact, but he won't be resurrected by Melisandre.

Jon compares himself to a sword in ADwD saying "Longlcaw is Valyrian steel, but I'm not."

[Jô Maltese]

I like some of this (well probably most of it) but would suggest the following:

why does the OP believe that GRRM is not a fan of full scale resurrections?? What was Cat if not a full scale resurrection?

Anyway, I think the OP does address the main points Jon probably did "warg" into Ghost and he will probably be at some point resurrected as well.

My question is why can't both events happen simultaneously?

Hint: Jon's story arc is following the arc of the Norse sword Gram or Gramr (the precursor to Excalibur).

In Norse mythology the smith, Wayland, forges a magic sword Gram. Odin takes the sword to a wedding feast and amidst the lords and ladies at the feast he thrusts the sword into a tree growing in the midst of the hall, Barnstokkr. Odin tells the assemblage that the Lord that can pull the sword free from the tree could own the sword. The only lord capable of the feat is Sigurd. Later Sigurd breaks the sword in two against a black cloaked soldier. Sigurd gives the sword to his wife and tells her to hold on to the sword until it can be reforged and then be given to his unborn son. When the sword is reforged, it becomes so powerful that it can split an anvil in two. The newly forged sword is given to Sigurn's son Sigfried, who uses the sword to slay the dragon Fafnir.

Jon is the sword, his primary tutor being Donal Noye, the smith, who teaches Jon how to become a leader of men. Lord Commander Mormont, playing the part of Odin, makes Jon swear an oath that he would take no part in the wars of the seven kingdoms (this occurred after Jon runs away to try and join his brother, Robb in battle). Effectively Mormont traps Jon into the Wall (standing in for Barnstokkr). Two kings try and pull Jon away from his oath (thus try to free the sword from Barnstokkr), Mance Rayder and later Stannis Baratheon. Ultimately one of these Kings succeeded (whoever wrote the Pink letter). Jon finally breaks his vows and marches on Winterfell. However, Jon is then killed by his brothers in black (the black cloaked soldiers) who stab him for his violation of his Night's Watch oath. Jon has two thoughts as he is being stabbed:

Now let's take a look at the "magic swords" that we have been introduced to.

First we have Jon's bastard sword, Longclaw. The hilt of the sword is decorated with a white stone direwolf with garnet eyes:

Basically consider Jon's escape into Ghost as the hilt of the sword. And Jon's resurrection as UnJon or Jon Stoneheart or whatever you want to call him as the blade, or the sword without the hilt:

So after Jon reaches out to Ghost, what is his last thought? Stick them with the pointy end.

The pointy end being the blade of the sword. The positive aspects of Jon escape into Ghost, the vengeful negative aspect of Jon stays with him as he dies, only to come to the forefront when he is resurrected.

The next sword to consider is Ice. Ice is broken down into two other swords, Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.

If Jon is indeed broken into two beings (wolf Jon and Jon Stoneheart) the analogy continues. Wolf Jon is Oathkeeper while Jon Stoneheart is Widow's Wail.

Now let us go back to Dany's visions during the blood ritual with MMD and Drogo:

I contend that Dany is seeing the two aspects of Jon, Jon the wolf (or the hilt) and Jon Stoneheart (Jon the blade).

Although it is very well constructed, I do not buy every thing you say, but I very much like the idea of Stannis and Mance being the 2 kings waking the dragon. Simple, fulfilling the prophecy and almost confirmed by the story - save the pink letter authorship. But at this time of the story, who are the 2 kings with a righteous claim and a true kingly behaviour? Stannis indeed, and... Dany (no feminine in Valyrian). If Jon is to become Lightbringer as Schmendrick has put it so well, Dany could be the Nissa Nissa needed - their love story giving the metaphor for her piercing of her heart by a blade.

Also, for me the man wreathed in Flames in Dany's dream sounds more like Stannis than Jon in a second life. A while ago I had posted a theory on Jon's 3 lives (and not 2, here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102197-the-ash-the-chestnut-and-the-oak-jons-3-lives/ ), analysing Jon's trip to Mole's Town in aDwD when he notices 3 trees carved by the wildlings.

1. The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. (...) A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the wall.

(...). "Looks a bit like you, Edd,"

(...)

2. A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. (...)​The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying "Corn, corn, corn."

(...)

3. Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. (...) but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

With the help of other members, we came up with this analysis:

1.The Ash symbolises Jon's duty as a Stark and the NW LC (looking like Edd = looking like a NW member + sounds like 'Ned'), that is to keep looking north as his ancestors have made for centuries, to keep protecting Humankind from Evil. But Jon and / or the whole NW is / are twisted : his sense of duty is fading.

2. The Chesnut is Stannis, the Honest and Enduring king, but also involved with Dark powers and in a way already dead (leafless, skeletal, the raven). He is the King that responded Jon's call but in doing so he abandoned his own values (when Jon raised his fist, the raven came, leaving the Honest and Enduring tree behind) but his help has a price (corn). Stannis is showing the bridge over the icy stream, i.e. a way of escaping his duty as LC to fulfil his other duties / desires / or his alternate destiny.

Possible further development: "Corn for the free folk, (...) none for you". He wondered if they would all be reduced to eating ravens before the coming winter had run its course. Jon will favour supporting the wildlings to supporting Stannnis and may end up fighting and destroying him? The Chesnut also represents Jon visiting the underworld after his assassination at the Wall. He is a Ghost (in Ghost?), a sacrificed divinity like the Corn King.

3. The Oak symbolises Jon as the awakened Dragon (Targ) having crossed the bridge shown by Stannis. Wounded in the process (the stabbing) but also having re-opened old wounds (revenge for his 'old' family) or new ones (revenge for his discovered new family) he takes the King's road at last, furious and mighty (Jon the berserk).

Point being that I have thought for a while that Stannis is almost certainly one of the 2 kings needed to wake Jon the dragon. And the oak could also point at Dany being the second one now that I read this current thread.

EDIT: quotes fixing.

[BrianBoru]

Very interesting thread, thanks all.

One query: When did Jon have his dream about the crypts of Winterfell?

"...a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . . ."

I see that it's taken that the wolf is Ned, but, reading this quote, it sounds to me more like a description of a dead Greywind and therefore represents Robb. Was the dream after the Red Wedding? Of course, if it was before the RW, it could be taken as foreshadowing! So maybe it doesn't matter when Jon had this dream: why should we take the direwolf to represent Ned rather than Robb?

[Mithras]

Very interesting thread, thanks all.

One query: When did Jon have his dream about the crypts of Winterfell?

I see that it's taken that the wolf is Ned, but, reading this quote, it sounds to me more like a description of a dead Greywind and therefore represents Robb. Was the dream after the Red Wedding? Of course, if it was before the RW, it could be taken as foreshadowing! So maybe it doesn't matter when Jon had this dream: why should we take the direwolf to represent Ned rather than Robb?

It was after the RW in ASoS.

[Frey family reunion]

It isn't a full-scale resurrection as she isn't the person she was before, and she wasn't what one would alive, as she doesn't do the things that are required of the living like sleep.

Because his last POV indicates he went into Ghost already. I doubt he was stabbed just to be revived just that second, and to have spent some time in Ghost for a few seconds. I think along with the new knowledge he gains from BranRaven, he develops a newfound appreciation for his warging that he originally rejected. I expect him to go to Borroq to serve as his mentor in fully developing his skinchanging abilities.

I have argued Jon wasn't breaking his vows when dealing with the Boltons since they did pose a clear threat to the NW. Jon wasn't killed for that, but Marsh's assassination of Jon was planned. I never considered the Gramr angle. I think the vision in Dany's tent was wighted Othor when Jon threw the burning drapes on him and Ghost. I think Jon's essence will remain intact, but he won't be resurrected by Melisandre.

Jon compares himself to a sword in ADwD saying "Longlcaw is Valyrian steel, but I'm not."

I don't think I explained my suggestion very clearly. I'm not suggesting that Jon only hangs out in Ghost a few seconds, I'm suggesting that Jon "wargs" with Ghost, and then escapes. Jon's body is resurrected and we have two Jons existing simultaneously Jon/Ghost and Jon Stoneheart. The more positive aspects of Jon's psyche within Ghost while the more negative aspect of Jon's psyche (or his shadow) still within his body when he's resurrected. Thus Jon's psyche is broken in two (hence the sword analogy) half his psyche/soul in Ghost and half (his shadow half) in his body which is resurrected probably with fire.

Outside of the broken sword analogy I think GRRM has made heavy use of dream symbolism/archetypes/terms in his story. The Shadow and The Other are two terms often used in dream analysis. Projecting ourselves as animals also is a theory in dream analysis and the warrior/maiden/father/mother/crone/smith/stranger are all similar to archetypes in dream analysis.

Specifically Stannis' Shadow killing Renly is right out of Carl Jung's theories on the Shadow. According to Jung, our Shadow is the negative aspects and impulses of ourselves that we try and disassociate from how we picture our self or our identity. Thus Jung believes that when we dream we often project our Shadow aspect as being someone else or someone different in our dreams. This has often been called "the Other" by dream analysts. In Stannis' case he literally projects his Shadow from his body where it performs his darkest desire by killing Renly. Stannis even recalls the events in a dream.

I'm glad you brought up Lady Stoneheart. Yes she is Cat resurrected but not all of Cat. She is Cat's Shadow self only, her darkest, wildest desires were all that was brought back, the rest of her psyche was not. So Lady Stoneheart is basically only the Shadow aspect of the psyche.

Now go back to Jon's situation. Jon calls out to Ghost, and then his next thought is "stick them with the pointy end". My guess is Martin is once again playing with Carl Jung's theories. Jon's positive aspects, the one that he identifies himself with, that part of his psyche merges with Ghost, but his Shadow self is left behind, the part of his psyche that he distances himself from, the part that desires revenge (the "stick them with the pointy end" part of Jon's psyche). If you recall throughout the books Jon has always tried to push his more negative thoughts and emotions away (his dreams about killing Eddard, about Benjen dead on the road, ect.). It's this Shadow Self that Jon will be resurrected with just like Cat was resurrected with only her Shadow self.

Carl Jung also believed that we can never truly develop our "Self" until we can find a way to incorporate the aspects of our Psyche that we recognize along with our Shadow Self that we try and distance ourselves from. Hence at some point Ghost/Jon and Jon Stoneheart will probably reunite, and Jon will get full control of his resurrected body (and along the way probably becoming much more powerful). Thus the analogy of the broken sword being reforged (and becoming more powerful than before) will also dovetail with Jung's theories about incorporating our acknowledge psyche with our Shadow self that we don't acknowledge.

As for your last point yes, Jon acknowledges that he is not Valyrian Steel, but that is because Jon hasn't been broken and reforged yet.

[Half Of Tormunds Member]

Currently doing a reread and I found a piece in AGOT that I think might be connected to this somehow. I'm not at all sure how, but possibly a little foreshadowing of Jon's resurrection. Perhaps some of the smarter minds can see more meaning in it than I can.

It's in an Ayra chapter, after Syrio defends her from the Lannisters and she's escaping in the bowels of King's Landing.

Fear cuts deeper than swords, the quiet voice inside her whispered. Suddenly Arya remembered the crypts at Winterfell. They were a lot scarier than this place, she told herself. She'd been just a little girl the last time she saw them. Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who'd been no bigger than Rickon was now. They'd only had one candle between them, and Bran's eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their iron swords across their laps.

Robb took them all the way dow to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. "There are worse things that spiders and rats," he whispered. "This is where the dead walk." That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Ayra's hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb's leg, sobbing. Tyra stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon covered with flour. "You stupid," she told him, "you scared the baby," but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.

Jon's vengeful body coming out of the Ice cells?

ETA: Formatting and, it also mentions that it's where the Kings of Winter are and again, it's Jon who is the main protagonist here.

[sj4iy]

Currently doing a reread and I found a piece in AGOT that I think might be connected to this somehow. I'm not at all sure how, but possibly a little foreshadowing of Jon's resurrection. Perhaps some of the smarter minds can see more meaning in it than I can.

It's in an Ayra chapter, after Syrio defends her from the Lannisters and she's escaping in the bowels of King's Landing.

"Fear cuts deeper than swords, the quiet voice inside her whispered. Suddenly Arya remembered the crypts at Winterfell. They were a lot scarier than this place, she told herself. She'd been just a little girl the last time she saw them. Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who'd been no bigger than Rickon was now. They'd only had one candle between them, and Bran's eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their iron swords across their laps.

I admittedly don't understand why you think there is foreshadowing for Jon's resurrection in that paragraph.

[Half Of Tormunds Member]

I just put the whole piece in to give it the location and background. My bad. Although it does mention the Kings Of Winter so maybe that can also play a part.

Admittedly this is my real first serious attempt to add anything that might be of use on these forums so apologies if I'm not being specific enough. Sometimes I see things that trigger something for me but I can't quite put my finger on it and thus I won't bother posting as I can't rationalise the whole though but this time I just thought, hey, there are smarter minds than mine here, maybe they can pull stuff from it. :dunno:

[Snark_Tamer]

Frey Family Reunion--I LOVE the split sword stuff. It seems very fitting to me and the fact there are connections in a few directions (the literal split sword and Jon being split) suggests to me there is something to this. Maybe, in fact, it is not Melissandre at all that resurrects Jon, but somehow he is touched by an Other and spends some time as a Wight--truly ice. Understanding them.

As for the scene in the crypts--the part I take from that is that possibly Jon the Wight is unrecognizable as still Jon by everyone but Arya--that maybe she sees him for who he is.

[BalerionTheCat]

I don't know if Jon is really dead or not. But if Melisandre or anyone else pulls a fake death and resurrection trick, and if after that, Jon pretends to be free of his vows, then for me, he will have rescind his vows as bad as any deserter.

If Jon is to be released of his vows, IMHO he has to die, really die, and resurrect in a way, and in a changed state, that leaves no doubt of his former death.

[239JMFL34109]

I don't know if Jon is really dead or not. But if Melisandre or anyone else pulls a fake death and resurrection trick, and if after that, Jon pretends to be free of his vows, then for me, he will have rescind his vows as bad as any deserter.

If Jon is to be released of his vows, IMHO he has to die, really die, and resurrect in a way, and in a changed state, that leaves no doubt of his former death.

i think even if he was to die and come back he would continue to be part of the NW . I think it's his enemies that would push him out then saying he fulfilled his vows and now under control of the others so he cannot be trusted.

jon if he did die i would believe would try to even join the Watch again but they would refuse him.

[Durran Durrandon]

Dany simply needed to burn MMD to hatch her dragons from eggs, and I think Mel burning Gerrick would hatch the dragon, Jon Targaryen, from his egg (akin to Egg, Aegon's false identity hiding his Targaryen identity).

Danny burns Drogo, the Khal, and arguably her still born child, the Stallion Who Will Mount the World, was sacrificed. Burning MMD I doubt had any roll in hatching those eggs.

I don't think I explained my suggestion very clearly. I'm not suggesting that Jon only hangs out in Ghost a few seconds, I'm suggesting that Jon "wargs" with Ghost, and then escapes. Jon's body is resurrected and we have two Jons existing simultaneously Jon/Ghost and Jon Stoneheart. The more positive aspects of Jon's psyche within Ghost while the more negative aspect of Jon's psyche (or his shadow) still within his body when he's resurrected. Thus Jon's psyche is broken in two (hence the sword analogy) half his psyche/soul in Ghost and half (his shadow half) in his body which is resurrected probably with fire.

I really like the two Jons idea, in that it is a cool idea, but I have some problems with it. First, Beric Dondorian doesn't seem to be the shadow version of himself. He admittedly says he is loosing bits of himself, but he seems pretty humane. Second, I am not convinced he was resurrected by fire magic. I don't think Thoros is entirely convinced he was resurrected by fire magic. The first time we see Beric he is sitting in cave with twisted white roots surrounding him. I wouldn't count weirwood magic out on this one.

Side note on Gandolf peeps: Gandolf's resurrection seems less cheap when you recognize that he was already an immortal being.