Jon's "Resurrection"

[Mithras]

/snip

In Bran’s “resurrection”, we saw the "shadowy" side of Bran emerging after he was healed. That was related to what he was shown in the dream and to what kind of a world he woke up to. He woke up as the "broken" boy.

Jon will learn R+L=J in his dream and that alone will be emotionally very intense to just accept and move on. Then, he will be healed and wake up to a world which is one step away from hell. No doubt, these events will cast their shadows on Jon and leave their marks on him just like he carries the mark of everything happened to him so far.

I agree with your idea of Jon being broken and reforged as a sword but I don’t think there needs to be the supernatural thing going like you suggest. Without the splitting of Jon’s soul into two parts as you suggest, we can still have your good insight being played by George as I described above.

[BalerionTheCat]

i think even if he was to die and come back he would continue to be part of the NW . I think it's his enemies that would push him out then saying he fulfilled his vows and now under control of the others so he cannot be trusted.

jon if he did die i would believe would try to even join the Watch again but they would refuse him.

That may be. I could see Jon saying: "hey, I was dead, but I'm no more. So I can resume my watch". It could be that GRRM will keep him longer out of the race for rulership (and hide R+L=J for longer). But I hope that he and the others (not the Others) will see that he is AA, and have more important things to do than keeping a watch on a wall of ice. And I would think that Jon's stabbing will create such a riot between Free Folk, Queen's men and remaining NW men, that the NW order may simply disappear there (that would anyway provide the sufficient blood sacrifices for paying back Jon's life).

[Frey family reunion]

In Bran’s “resurrection”, we saw the "shadowy" side of Bran emerging after he was healed. That was related to what he was shown in the dream and to what kind of a world he woke up to. He woke up as the "broken" boy.

Jon will learn R+L=J in his dream and that alone will be emotionally very intense to just accept and move on. Then, he will be healed and wake up to a world which is one step away from hell. No doubt, these events will cast their shadows on Jon and leave their marks on him just like he carries the mark of everything happened to him so far.

I agree with your idea of Jon being broken and reforged as a sword but I don’t think there needs to be the supernatural thing going like you suggest. Without the splitting of Jon’s soul into two parts as you suggest, we can still have your good insight being played by George as I described above.

I doubt that GRRM will unveil this reveal in the next book. I also think that Jon has enough to feed his shadow side as it stands. His home was invaded by Ironmen and then by the Dreadfort. Many of the people who he grew up around were probably put to the sword, the castle that he has secretly coveted has been burned down, he believes his favorite sibling has been forced to marry a sadistic lunatic who killed his last wife by locking her in a tower and letting her starve. And now when he finally decides to march and liberate his castle and his sister, his brothers have literally stabbed him in the back. I think having a dream where you are told your father is a dead Prince of a deposed monarchy and your aunt is really your mother kind of pales in comparison to the stuff he is already dealing with. My guess is his secret parentage (if indeed Rhaegar is his father) can wait until the last book when the dragons get involved.

[Snark_Tamer]

I agree that "Jon arisen" may try to stay and keep with his vows, but think about the experience of the Night's Watch so far with un-dead... they will assume he is "Other" and try to burn him, yes? Sam isn't there to point out the logical flaw (that he can talk coherently and has no ice blue eyes). At the very least they will cast him out, but I see it as more likely he has to flee for his life.

And then there are all the hints about him in the crypts at Winterfell. He HAS to go to Winterfell--I don't think he will be able to figure out who he is without it.

[239JMFL34109]

That may be. I could see Jon saying: "hey, I was dead, but I'm no more. So I can resume my watch". It could be that GRRM will keep him longer out of the race for rulership (and hide R+L=J for longer). But I hope that he and the others (not the Others) will see that he is AA, and have more important things to do than keeping a watch on a wall of ice. And I would think that Jon's stabbing will create such a riot between Free Folk, Queen's men and remaining NW men, that the NW order may simply disappear there (that would anyway provide the sufficient blood sacrifices for paying back Jon's life).

see has GRRM not been saying "hey this fight by the wall of ice is the actual important thing"? IF jon wins the throne (and i think people would have to force him to take it) then it is by first saving the world in the fight up north.

I agree that "Jon arisen" may try to stay and keep with his vows, but think about the experience of the Night's Watch so far with un-dead... they will assume he is "Other" and try to burn him, yes? Sam isn't there to point out the logical flaw (that he can talk coherently and has no ice blue eyes). At the very least they will cast him out, but I see it as more likely he has to flee for his life.

And then there are all the hints about him in the crypts at Winterfell. He HAS to go to Winterfell--I don't think he will be able to figure out who he is without it.

Yeah that is what i think will happen. it will be like the beginning of highlander the movie where they cast him out of the clan. Jon i thin is going to lose everything outside of himself that he uses to define him like being a brother of the watch and ned's son.

[sj4iy]

I just put the whole piece in to give it the location and background. My bad. Although it does mention the Kings Of Winter so maybe that can also play a part.

Admittedly this is my real first serious attempt to add anything that might be of use on these forums so apologies if I'm not being specific enough. Sometimes I see things that trigger something for me but I can't quite put my finger on it and thus I won't bother posting as I can't rationalise the whole though but this time I just thought, hey, there are smarter minds than mine here, maybe they can pull stuff from it. :dunno:

No apologies necessary...I was just confused. I don't think there's any foreshadowing in that particular paragraph.

[BalerionTheCat]

see has GRRM not been saying "hey this fight by the wall of ice is the actual important thing"? IF jon wins the throne (and i think people would have to force him to take it) then it is by first saving the world in the fight up north.

I think GRRM meant to say that the menace of the Other is the important thing (wrt the IT). Not that everything will be resolved at the Wall.

If the Wall holds and the Others never pass south, Jon can stay at his wall. And no one else, including Danerys, will ever care what's happening in the North.

But if the legends are true, if the sun does not rise, and the Long Night lasts a generation, if the Others are seen everywhere, then Jon may have more to do than staying at the Wall. If Melisandre and Val are convinced that Jon is not an Other's thrall (and I hope that will be VERY obvious), if Melisandre starts saying he his AA, if he can do (I don't know how) the trick of the burning sword, then I think everyone will follow him.

[BettyCrocker]

I doubt that GRRM will unveil this reveal in the next book. I also think that Jon has enough to feed his shadow side as it stands. His home was invaded by Ironmen and then by the Dreadfort. Many of the people who he grew up around were probably put to the sword, the castle that he has secretly coveted has been burned down, he believes his favorite sibling has been forced to marry a sadistic lunatic who killed his last wife by locking her in a tower and letting her starve. And now when he finally decides to march and liberate his castle and his sister, his brothers have literally stabbed him in the back. I think having a dream where you are told your father is a dead Prince of a deposed monarchy and your aunt is really your mother kind of pales in comparison to the stuff he is already dealing with. My guess is his secret parentage (if indeed Rhaegar is his father) can wait until the last book when the dragons get involved.

I definitely agree with your statement that Jon will have gone through a tremendous amount of things to deal with and that this may lead to a darker character, but I can't really get behind the split personality thing in your previous posts. Warging into Ghost doesn't mean that he completely stops having human, or "Jon", thoughts. So, thinking "stick 'em with the pointy end" shouldn't necessarily equate to a split in Jon. Also, it's hard to gauge whether he warged right as he said "Ghost" or that he had yet to warg. I believe it's the later, since both Jon and Varamyr have an instance when when they feel "cold" - in regards to Varamyr, this is when he wargs into his wolf.

I do believe Jon’s mental state will alter while he is in a coma. We know with Bran that after 3 days of constant warging with Summer, it becomes difficult to remember how to speak, though not impossible. If Jon is left for a long time in Ghost, it may mess with his human psyche, while if he can somehow go between Ghost and his comatose body, he might be able to remain somewhat intact mentally... Maybe. Being stabbed takes a lot out of you, and I'm not just talking about blood loss.

Many people also believe that he will speak with Ned and/or Lyanna while comatose, and will finally be confronted by the truth of his parents. I don't know how he'd be able to compartmentalize all the events which are occurring around him in quick succession. Not only does he now have to deal with the fact that he's been betrayed and brutally stabbed and probably (hopefully) on the verge of death (and not dead), but also have to be confined to either his comatose body which will induce him into one of his worst nightmarish dreams, or warg Ghost where he might forget part of himself. And, to top it off, he would have to then deal with the fact that Ned is not his father, but rather Rhaegar with Lyanna being his mother. That's heavy stuff. And he’s what, 17?

I have a difficult time believing that we'd get the same Jon back after this tumultuous experience. His whole life would be uprooted and shaken to the core. Especially if Ghost has to be sacrificed as some people believe - Ghost and Jon are described as being almost one in the same, so if Ghost is sacrificed, would it not be almost the same as if Jon was resurrected from death anyways? I'm not saying that it would be a bad decision to load all this stuff onto a character's back. In fact, I think it would be extremely interesting to see how the character deals with it.

So, in my opinion, there's no need to have Jon deal with another "evil Jon". The turmoil within himself would be enough, again, in my opinion.

.......

Nice posts by F.E and M.S. too, btw. I really hope he is just comatose and not dead!

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I do agree on Bran showing Jon some information from the past but I believe on a greater co-operation between Melisandre (fire) and Bloodraven (darkness) to resurrect Jon.All 4 connect somehow(Bran has spoken to Jon in COK,Jon is with Melisandre in DWD,Melisandre sees BR and Bran in DWD).I believe Melisandre will finally see that he is too important to be left and try to bring him back but at first refuses to get BR and Bran's help.After some trial and error (Gilly's son) she agrees to work with them.Bran will eventually stop Theon's execution in Winderfel only to be taken to the Wall to take the black but , in truth,to be sacrificed to awake Jon.Otherwise Shireen will be sacrificed (the dragon who eats her flesh will be Jon).All this time Jon will have warged to Ghost and learn about his parentage from Bran.

[Fire Eater]

I don't know if Jon is really dead or not. But if Melisandre or anyone else pulls a fake death and resurrection trick, and if after that, Jon pretends to be free of his vows, then for me, he will have rescind his vows as bad as any deserter.

If Jon is to be released of his vows, IMHO he has to die, really die, and resurrect in a way, and in a changed state, that leaves no doubt of his former death.

I don't think he would be free from his vows. The only way I see that is if the NW ceases to exist, or a Grand Council absolves Jon of his vows so he can take the crown.

I do agree on Bran showing Jon some information from the past but I believe on a greater co-operation between Melisandre (fire) and Bloodraven (darkness) to resurrect Jon.All 4 connect somehow(Bran has spoken to Jon in COK,Jon is with Melisandre in DWD,Melisandre sees BR and Bran in DWD).I believe Melisandre will finally see that he is too important to be left and try to bring him back but at first refuses to get BR and Bran's help.After some trial and error (Gilly's son) she agrees to work with them.Bran will eventually stop Theon's execution in Winderfel only to be taken to the Wall to take the black but , in truth,to be sacrificed to awake Jon.Otherwise Shireen will be sacrificed (the dragon who eats her flesh will be Jon).All this time Jon will have warged to Ghost and learn about his parentage from Bran.

Melisandre thinks BranRaven is the enemy, and he associates with darkness, so I doubt she would work with him. Again, I doubt Melisandre would try to resurrect Jon, but rather pick a new LC who could be her puppet. How would they communicate at all? Melisandre is opposed to dreaming, and calls them the products of the Great Other.

I sincerely doubt Stannis and Selyse would let Melisandre sacrifice Shireen to resurrect a bastard. I don't think Theon will be sacrificed either given the expectation being he will, and GRRM toying with expectations. All the sacrifices were unintentional.

[sj4iy]

I doubt that GRRM will unveil this reveal in the next book.

I beg to differ.

GRRM Quote:

And then the other one was, of course, you know, I have certain things that I’m laying clues for that there will be revelations later on. Some people had put together those clues even as early as 1998, adding things together. I said, “What do I do with that? What do I do with that? These people have guessed the secret that I’m gonna reveal in book 6, people have already guessed that here and book 2 is just out.” You really have two choices there: you can ignore it and proceed with your plan, despite the fact that some people know where you’re going; or you can get all panicky and say “OMG, they’ve figured it out, I can’t let that be, I’ll have to change it, I’ll have to go in a different direction.” And I think some writers do that, and I think that’s always a mistake. You know, if you've planned your book that the butler did it, and then you read on the internet that someone has figured out that the butler did it and you suddenly change in midstream and it was the chambermaid who did it, then you screw up the whole book, because you get this foreshadowing early on and you’ve got these little clues you’ve planted and now they’re dead ends, and you have to introduce these other clues and now you’re retconning…it’s a mess.

[The One And Only]

GRRM has ragged on fantasy for having some bad cliches. Sadly, he uses one of the worst ones a lot in his series, which is bringing back people from the dead. I would love to see a fantasy series where a death is really a death.

[sj4iy]

GRRM has ragged on fantasy for having some bad cliches. Sadly, he uses one of the worst ones a lot in his series, which is bringing back people from the dead. I would love to see a fantasy series where a death is really a death.

Ned's not coming back, though.

[Durran Durrandon]

Ned's not coming back, though.

Neither is Robb or Robert.

[Fire Eater]

GRRM has ragged on fantasy for having some bad cliches. Sadly, he uses one of the worst ones a lot in his series, which is bringing back people from the dead. I would love to see a fantasy series where a death is really a death.

Except Jon isn't confirmed dead, and GRRM hints that he is alive.

[The One And Only]

Except Jon isn't confirmed dead, and GRRM hints that he is alive.

Just as bad. The fake death cliff hanger.

[The Wolves]

Neither is Robb or Robert.

Robb ~sobbing~ thanks for bringing up that hurt.

[BalerionTheCat]

I beg to differ.

GRRM Quote:

And then the other one was, of course, you know, I have certain things that I’m laying clues for that there will be revelations later on. Some people had put together those clues even as early as 1998, adding things together. I said, “What do I do with that? What do I do with that? These people have guessed the secret that I’m gonna reveal in book 6, people have already guessed that here and book 2 is just out.” You really have two choices there: you can ignore it and proceed with your plan, despite the fact that some people know where you’re going; or you can get all panicky and say “OMG, they’ve figured it out, I can’t let that be, I’ll have to change it, I’ll have to go in a different direction.” And I think some writers do that, and I think that’s always a mistake. You know, if you've planned your book that the butler did it, and then you read on the internet that someone has figured out that the butler did it and you suddenly change in midstream and it was the chambermaid who did it, then you screw up the whole book, because you get this foreshadowing early on and you’ve got these little clues you’ve planted and now they’re dead ends, and you have to introduce these other clues and now you’re retconning…it’s a mess.

Could you give us a link to the article please? Are you sure it is not fake? I know the part about fans finding some elements in the 90's. But I don't know about GRRM speaking of important things revealed in book 6. Not that it would necessarily mean R+L=J, or AA identify or anything else.

[BalerionTheCat]

Just as bad. The fake death cliff hanger.

I agree with that.

GRRM has given us enough "return from the death". So we know that resurrection is "technically" possible. And IMHO, it was to prepare us to Jon's death and resurrection. So that it is not something coming out of nowhere.

And if death is not enough of an excuse to be released of his vows, I don't mind that Jon remains bound by them for a longer time. But I would really find lame if he was released by a Grand Council. GRRM has abundantly demonstrated that nobles are no wiser or better representing the god's justice on earth that any other men. IMHO, only gods can release Jon of his vows. And the only visible way they could do it, is by resurrecting him. And the simple disparition of the NW would not free him either, would not allow him to have wife or children, or a crown.

[239JMFL34109]

GRRM has ragged on fantasy for having some bad cliches. Sadly, he uses one of the worst ones a lot in his series, which is bringing back people from the dead. I would love to see a fantasy series where a death is really a death.

Lady stoneheart and etc... are not the same people who die.