Gilly for the gillyflower Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 ...But again, for me, CS=ww only makes sense if... CS=Catelyn Stark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 CS=Catelyn Stark? Craster's Sons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilly for the gillyflower Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Craster's SonsIt was a joke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I again agree to an extent. Dany reaches for the Iron Throne but then pulls her hand back. This is probably the temptation to achieve her presumed life goal, ruling Westeros, which is apparently rejected because she has more pressing business... which we discover, in the next scene, to be north of the Wall. Well, it's about damn time somebody besides Stannis felt that way. If and when Dany does on the show, I won't be the least surprised. I don't think her going to the Wall, in the show's vision, is a seduction; I think it's a prediction and an accurate one.See, this I'm torn about, I fully expected it would go this way. But sometimes now I wonder if there's a subversion of genre expectations happening... What if she never leaves Essos? (Narratively is there a point to that, am asking myself, but the thought persists)Or. Will she go to westeros in the show but not in the books? I dunno it just seems like she's so bogged down in Mereen she isn't supposed to leave, something is holding her there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 On the side, the King's of Winter took out the the other King's and their greenseers. Where these of the Singer variety or the human?Maybe both. Seems like there could have been alliances and the stark conquest may have finally squashed some of the old ties, maybe weakening the north leaving it more susceptible to the andals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Personally, I still lean toward the idea that the flaming sword in these visions and prophecies need not be literal flaming swords; they can be dragons, the Night's Watch, or whatever else floats your boat. Heck, even Bran had a near death experience, and reawakened with both a new gift, and the sudden impulse to name his wolf Summer, if you want to get truly abstract in interpreting death>rebirth>Lightbringer.Regardless of whether or not Jaime's dream was foreshadowing the future, it was definitely a true dream as regards his present. The sword he gifted to Brienne (and named himself) was a symbol of his oath to see to the safety of Catelyn's daughters, a task Brienne inherited, and more broadly a symbol of his attempts to reforge his honor. His dream where Brienne's flaming sword (his new oath/honor/purpose) is the only thing holding back the ghosts of the former Kingsguard, the symbols of his infamous broken oath is all metaphorical. If the sword stops burning, the 'darkness' will take him.That dream has always made me wonder. This reading is very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 See, this I'm torn about, I fully expected it would go this way. But sometimes now I wonder if there's a subversion of genre expectations happening... What if she never leaves Essos? (Narratively is there a point to that, am asking myself, but the thought persists)Or. Will she go to westeros in the show but not in the books? I dunno it just seems like she's so bogged down in Mereen she isn't supposed to leave, something is holding her there. No way to know for sure, of course. However, there's this highly suggestive SSM from 2002, in which a fan reports that [GRRM] says that Dany's arrival in Westeros will take place in book 5, A Dance with Dragons As for the show, that's its own wacky thing, and it's not impossible to me that Show Dany will go to Narnia or Oz or America. I'd be totally shocked, but delighted, if she decided to rule as a queen from Santa Fe, abolish Facebook, make boy bands and handguns illegal, make Qartheen dresses fashionable, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 It was a joke... Oh lol never know haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 No way to know for sure, of course. However, there's this highly suggestive SSM from 2002, in which a fan reports that As for the show, that's its own wacky thing, and it's not impossible to me that Show Dany will go to Narnia or Oz or America. I'd be totally shocked, but delighted, if she decided to rule as a queen from Santa Fe, abolish Facebook, make boy bands and handguns illegal, make Qartheen dresses fashionable, etc.But that would mean disbanding the singing Faabio Naharises so is a bit much to ask. If Grrm takes us on the journey I will happily go... I don't think the idea of ice and fire both belonging to the end of the story is far fetched, just am having trouble visualizing the stops on the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 But that would mean disbanding the singing Faabio Naharises so is a bit much to ask. If Grrm takes us on the journey I will happily go...I don't think the idea of ice and fire both belonging to the end of the story is far fetched, just am having trouble visualizing the stops on the way Well, I don't recall seeing any dragons at the Wall in Dany's HBO vision. I don't conclude anything from that; I just note it. I also note Aemon's AFFC remark, re dragons: "The last dragon died before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?""I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. Targ dragondreams are typically predictive and here we find dragon shadows on the snow. (In another place, you'd be told this is a direct reference to Jon's secret heritage.) Re your visualization skills, surely you can imagine anything if you can dream up the singing Faabio Naharises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Well, I don't recall seeing any dragons at the Wall in Dany's HBO vision. I don't conclude anything from that; I just note it. I also note Aemon's AFFC remark, re dragons: Targ dragondreams are typically predictive and here we find dragon shadows on the snow. (In another place, you'd be told this is a direct reference to Jon's secret heritage.) Re your visualization skills, surely you can imagine anything if you can dream up That's an interesting possibility in terms of the foreshadowing. Maybe it has been too long since reading the books. Too many theories. Am starting to wonder how similar dragon dreams are to green dreams (probably old ground). But I for now will take The dragon shadow as viable.As for the Faabio Naharises they are like the singing tenors, but prance about shirtless and occasionally snick off an enemy's head during the performance to show off their knives. V. Popular with teenage girls. Next year they hope to release their documentary and maybe get someone to help write the musical... Simon silvertongue is no longer available.Writing ridiculousness is much easier... I will say that since dany appears to be leaving Daario behind perhaps she doesn't think they can hack it in the cold and is planning to go north after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 I think they could have but HBO is intentionally trying to "ground" the show a bit. Which irritates me to no end. "Bloodraven's" reveal was extremely disappointing. The fact that they left out Lady Stoneheart ticks me off too. And I don't get how they do away with most of the dreams of the various characters since so much of this book is tied into Dream imagery. I mean the Others and the Shadow are straight out of Jung and his progeny. We're definitely getting the Game of Thrones and not the Song of Ice and Fire. I think that this is probably fair and an accurate assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 The World Book quote mentions greenseers, and I wonder who these greenseers were? Could the Children become greenseers at that time, or did they have volunteer or captive First Men serving as greenseers? It's interesting that this is referred to as sorcery, or a sort of "self-centered" manipulation of magic, and that this may be the first time the Children used blood sacrifices. I would say that the children always had their greenseers. I think where the First Men may have had an "inpu"t may have been in some of them doing a Craster during the Long Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Maybe both. Seems like there could have been alliances and the stark conquest may have finally squashed some of the old ties, maybe weakening the north leaving it more susceptible to the andals? As the Andals never conquered the North that seems a touch unlikely, but I wonder if I might make an extremely heretical suggestion with regard to these stories. According to Maester Luwin's history lesson, the Pact was followed by the Age of Heroes - a term which implies the constant warfare discussed in that chapter on the Kings of Winter. What if these events occurred before the Long Night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 As the Andals never conquered the North that seems a touch unlikely, but I wonder if I might make an extremely heretical suggestion with regard to these stories. According to Maester Luwin's history lesson, the Pact was followed by the Age of Heroes - a term which implies the constant warfare discussed in that chapter on the Kings of Winter. What if these events occurred before the Long Night?Ewch ymlaen, Chief Heretic! you're suggesting the stark conquest bears the responsibility for the breaking of the pact? That they were warring during the pax and brought about the long nightand the maeesters, eager to record their own version of history which played up andal virtues and obscured northerners, created an opportunity which allowed the Starks to conveniently obscure their part in it, and sort of let the blame float over and even possibly attach itself by association to the next wave of conquerors ( even if they never conquered the north the andals infiltrated the watch). When the maester pressed for an account to write up that section, the stark in winterfell replied he had to go and see a man about a dog... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer Is Coming! Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 As the Andals never conquered the North that seems a touch unlikely, but I wonder if I might make an extremely heretical suggestion with regard to these stories. According to Maester Luwin's history lesson, the Pact was followed by the Age of Heroes - a term which implies the constant warfare discussed in that chapter on the Kings of Winter. What if these events occurred before the Long Night? This is an interesting idea. Aren't the timelines pretty vague about when the Long Night occurred in relation to the Age of Heroes? We know that up until the Andals arrived, the First Men were still routinely at war with one another, and it's very possible that after the Pact, when First Men were less likely to war with the Children, they were still at war with each other. Placing the Long Night in the middle of the Age of Heroes, which I thought basically ran from the Dawn Age to the Andals, is completely possible. It may have come near the beginning, but it's possible that the Long Night was a very rude interruption to the First Men wars of their hundred kingdoms. This would parallel the chance for a second Long Night to arrive on the heels of the War of Five Kings. As a final nod towards this idea, the tales about Garth Greenhand have placed him in the Age of Heroes, but there was also the idea in the World Book that he was the first First Man, so I don't see any problem with suggesting that the Long Night occurs after the Kings of Winter have started acquiring the rest of the North. Maybe there was even a bastard Blackwood greenseer at that time who was unhappy about the family's exile from the Wolfswood, originally the Blackwood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 That's an interesting possibility in terms of the foreshadowing. Maybe it has been too long since reading the books. Too many theories. Am starting to wonder how similar dragon dreams are to green dreams (probably old ground). But I for now will take The dragon shadow as viable. Greendreams appear to be more powerful in that they can involve anyone or anything, whether directly pertinent to the dreamer or not. Targ dragondreams seem more egocentric (imagine that) in that they involve dragons as symbols for Targs. So if Aemon (a Targ) has a dragondream about dragon shadows on snow in AFFC, it seems very likely a Targ of some sort is, or will be, in such a location, or possibly in a location symbolized by snow. Readers of this site would likely look at that menu and order a delicious dish of Interpretation Jon served up in Sauce Obvious, but there are other, subtler options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 This is an interesting idea. Aren't the timelines pretty vague about when the Long Night occurred in relation to the Age of Heroes? We know that up until the Andals arrived, the First Men were still routinely at war with one another, and it's very possible that after the Pact, when First Men were less likely to war with the Children, they were still at war with each other. Placing the Long Night in the middle of the Age of Heroes, which I thought basically ran from the Dawn Age to the Andals, is completely possible. It may have come near the beginning, but it's possible that the Long Night was a very rude interruption to the First Men wars of their hundred kingdoms. This would parallel the chance for a second Long Night to arrive on the heels of the War of Five Kings. As a final nod towards this idea, the tales about Garth Greenhand have placed him in the Age of Heroes, but there was also the idea in the World Book that he was the first First Man, so I don't see any problem with suggesting that the Long Night occurs after the Kings of Winter have started acquiring the rest of the North. Maybe there was even a bastard Blackwood greenseer at that time who was unhappy about the family's exile from the Wolfswood, originally the Blackwood? I wouldn't necessarily throw the blame for bringing about the Long Night on the Starks. As we've discussed earlier I'm inclined to suspect that the dodgy seasons go way back and that the children were able to predict and take advantage of the biggie rather than actually unleash it for the first time. I'm still wondering why the Starks were termed Kings of Winter and not really seeing the North which they conquered as the post apocalyptic dead lands which were [presumably] pulling themselves together after the Long Night. Similarly the business of manning the Wall, as we've discussed before, isn't really consistent with the anarchy described in the Kings of Winter chapter. And then there's the coming of the Andals and their being held back by the Stark kingdom of the North, a kingdom sufficiently strong and united by then to do so - yet we're elsewhere told how the Andals took over the rest of Westeros by taking advantage of just such anarchy; siding with and marrying into the different factions. We might for example see an Andal/Bolton alliance but instead the Stark kingdom is too well established to be vulnerable to that sort of thing. Moving the Kings of Winter back to before the onset of the Long Night on the other hand is consistent with the wars occurring during the Age of Heroes; its consistent too with the Starks slaying children and greenseers who didn't require 13 heroes to go out and spend years looking for them, and it might too point towards both the Kings of Winter title and the Nights King business. I'm not proposing that the Starks brought down the Long Night by slaying greenseers per se, but rather that they too may have had their own allies among the children and other old races, whence came the warging blood and perhaps too the magic to do a Craster and raise white walkers who helped secure their mastery of the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I'm not proposing that the Starks brought down the Long Night by slaying greenseers per se, but rather that they too may have had their own allies among the children and other old races, whence came the warging blood and perhaps too the magic to do a Craster and raise white walkers who helped secure their mastery of the North. House Stark possibly using WWs to secure their grasp on the North is an idea that's always appealed to me, in part because they seem almost perfectly situated to wage such a war; House Stark itself rides out the worst climactic effects of a Long Winter in Winterfell (or in a pre-Winterfell Sidhe mound?), with it's natural hot springs, while WWs and wights conquer and raid on their behalf. Communities that bend the knee and pay tributes - food, and sons - are spared, while everyone else becomes fodder for the wight horde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Its perhaps also considering the apparent continuity of it all as Maester Luwin tells it: "The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes . . .""So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea..." There's a certain lack of clarity about this. Are there three distinct periods being described? Did the Age of Heroes end with the Long Night, and was the Long Night followed by the birth of the Seven Kingdoms? If so there's obviously a problem with the gift of 100 pieces of dragonglass given each year during the Age of Heroes, or, as seems to be the more straightforward reading given its connection to the duration of the Pact, did the Age of Heroes see the birth of the Seven Kingdoms? If so then the Long Night was an episode during the Age of Heroes and perhaps too just an episode in the rise of the Starks, which might again point to the Kings of Winter preceding rather than following the Long Night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.