NFL 2015 Offseason: The Aftermath

[Jace, Extat]

Why not all 3? Dream big :P

Based on what we saw in the post season I think three other teams could have won it:

1. The Ravens: they were this close to winning against NE and I don't see how Indy could have beaten them.

False. We could have beaten the Ravens. A few factors to consider:

1. @ Indy, where the defense played really well all year outside of the NE game.

2. When Baltimore came to Indy earlier this year, they were mauled. The game was a 1 score affair because of 4 Colts turnovers in the redzone, including an Ahmad Bradshaw fumble with less than 2 minutes to play, but the Ravens offense did absolutely nothing all game.

3. Matchups. Baltimore cornerbacks #87835 and #31543 are not exactly Revis and Browner out there. Also, Steve Smith would be erased by Vonte Davis and the Ravens have no TE to exploit the middle of the field.

We could have beaten the Ravens. In fact, the Ravens and the Bengals were the only 2 teams in the playoffs I was absolutely sure we could beat. Just because they played the Pats tough does not mean they would have walked all over the Colts @ Indy. Football games don't work like that, and shame on you because you should know better. Ravens matched up with NE very well, NE matched up with Colts very well, and Colts matched up with Ravens very well.

Also, Katy Perry's show was awesome.

[Voice]

Katy Perry was awesome but she was covering up the assets a bit more than I would have preferred...

[DanteGabriel]

From the previous thread:

This is very true. Pretty much agree with all of it.

Because the flipside of what I said is that through this 15 year run, what percentage of the team's success do you put on Belichick vs. Brady? Who is more indispensable to keeping the Patriots machine running?

I say Belichick 60/40. If Joe Montana can be replaced...

I'd say about the same, but I don't think they could have done this without each other. Maybe if Belichick has a good-but-not-Brady QB or Brady has a good-but-not-Belichick coach (who recognized his ability, developed him and made him a starter), either of them could win a title or two. Belichick could probably have won a couple of Super Bowls just with that defense he had ten years ago. But running a division for 15 years, regular trips to conference championships, and six Super Bowl appearances? They needed each other for that. Belichick's a genius but he needed a QB who could implement his plans, run complex adaptable offense with efficiency, and generate production greater than the skill position talent would normally allow. I ranted a few weeks ago about how having Brady afforded Belichick the luxury of short-shrifting his offense. One of the announcers made the point last night -- Nate Solder is the only first-round pick in the offense.

And Brady's been pretty up-front about how lucky he was to end up with New England. He once said something like, if he'd gone to Arizona or something, maybe he would have just washed out of the league.

All great coach-QB pairings are symbiotic. A good coach is pretty limited without a good QB. A good coach with a good QB can make each other better. And I recognize how lucky we in New England have been to see this. Some sports fans never get anything like this in all their lives across all the major sports leagues.

Sure Manning didn't have Belichick. He also had whatever the hell kind of offensive weapons he wanted. There are always trade-offs. Brady bought in to the plans of a genius coach, did whatever was asked of him, even as they let go of his buddies and his protectors, and was rewarded for it. Manning made his teams all about himself, and... well, there you go.

[Jace, Extat]

After last night, I'm not buying that Brady has no weapons left. We all know what Gronk is, but Edelman is really fucking good. He's not just a product of Brady at this point. Vereen is one of the best receiving backs in the league. Blount is really fucking good, I cannot understand why NE is the only team that will let him play. Lafell is a solid #2 WR. Even Edelman (who kinda sucks) played for a year with a torn groin.

And the thing is, those guys aren't just good, they're tough as nails. Every Patriots WR got his ass plastered at least once last night, but they just kept coming back for more. I attribute that to quality coaching from Belichick for both finding the guys and motivating them.

So what point am I trying to make here? Am I segueing into a defense of Manning? Nope! I'm actually doing the opposite. Brady knew his role and let the coach do the coaching and put the players the coach wanted around him. Which lead to a receiving corps that isn't the most talented in the league, but they're quick as fuck, versatile, and tough.

Manning (in Denver) demanded that he get all of the really pretty players who can run fast and jump high and do exactly what he tells them. And he's left with some really talented guys who are about as tough as a tissue, who turtle up after 1 big hit, who don't fight for the ball, and don't surprise anyone with a new trick at a crucial moment.

Good for Brady.

[DanteGabriel]

Blount is really fucking good, I cannot understand why NE is the only team that will let him play.

Thanks again for the running back, Tomlin! And thanks to the rest of the league for letting him clear waivers (I'm looking at you, Colts -- guess you guys thought you were pretty well fixed at RB?).

Even Edelman (who kinda sucks) played for a year with a torn groin.

You mean Amendola, right?

On the occasions when he's actually gotten on the field and caught passes, he's been really good. They probably don't beat the Ravens without some of the critical first downs he picked up after shaking off tacklers. His problem has been earning Brady's trust. And it was sort of comical early in the year when the only passes he caught were when LaFell was setting an illegal pick play to get him open.

[Jace, Extat]

Thanks again for the running back, Tomlin! And thanks to the rest of the league for letting him clear waivers (I'm looking at you, Colts -- guess you guys thought you were pretty well fixed at RB?).

You mean Amendola, right?

On the occasions when he's caught a pass, he's been really good. They probably don't beat the Ravens without some of the critical first downs he picked up after shaking off tacklers. His problem has been earning Brady's trust.

Yeah, that's the one. I get those white boys confused. And he was really shifty out there too, even though I only saw him catch like 2 or 3 passes. What I kept getting struck by during Brady's quick passes was that the guys were FAST. Not downfield fast, exactly, but they were moving really quickly and blowing past Seattle DB's and linebackers. And then they'd get demolished five or ten yards later and pop up doing a little first down celebration. That's a set of skills I don't see on other teams right there. NE may very well have the quickest set of pass catchers I can recall seeing on the field at once. It's really kinda cool, and I'm willing to admit that I didn't notice it for a while. I was so focused on the lack of a downfield threat who can run in a straight line and jump that I failed to notice the army of Wes Welkers and poor man's Matt Forte.

A lot of teams have or in recent memory had a smaller guy they could get the ball to quickly and let him make a move, I can't think of any that had 3 or 4 of those guys on the field at the same fucking time. No wonder Seattle had so much trouble defending the Pats offense.

[DanteGabriel]

Yeah, that's the one. I get those white boys confused. And he was really shifty out there too, even though I only saw him catch like 2 or 3 passes. What I kept getting struck by during Brady's quick passes was that the guys were FAST. Not downfield fast, exactly, but they were moving really quickly and blowing past Seattle DB's and linebackers. And then they'd get demolished five or ten yards later and pop up doing a little first down celebration. That's a set of skills I don't see on other teams right there. NE may very well have the quickest set of pass catchers I can recall seeing on the field at once. It's really kinda cool, and I'm willing to admit that I didn't notice it for a while. I was so focused on the lack of a downfield threat who can run in a straight line and jump that I failed to notice the army of Wes Welkers and poor man's Matt Forte.

A lot of teams have or in recent memory had a smaller guy they could get the ball to quickly and let him make a move, I can't think of any that had 3 or 4 of those guys on the field at the same fucking time. No wonder Seattle had so much trouble defending the Pats offense.

I saw some commentary about that being the plan -- Seattle defenders are fast, but they can be juked, and don't go sideways so well. So the plan was pretty much underneath throws all night. Something like 60% of Brady's passing yards were after the catch. The Army of Gnats group of WRs kind of reminds me of the days when they had Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens and David Patten (Givens was the LaFell of that group).

But this was almost an accidental personnel set. Of the three rookie receivers they brought in for 2013, Dobson and Thompkins were bigger guys, and Boyce was supposed to be a downfield guy. That year, they also let Edelman walk in free agency. He came back on a pretty modest deal after testing the market. It also seems like Edelman really likes playing with Brady and recognizes what a good spot he's found for himself in NE. Belichick doesn't always hit as a GM, but he sure as shit gets the most out of the guys he ends up with.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

What I kept getting struck by during Brady's quick passes was that the guys were FAST. Not downfield fast, exactly, but they were moving really quickly and blowing past Seattle DB's and linebackers. And then they'd get demolished five or ten yards later and pop up doing a little first down celebration.

Eh, I mostly saw a group of pretty average receivers (with the exception of Edelman) cashing checks on Tharold Simon's account. I think that injury to Lane early was key to these guys looking competent. As far as I can tell, Lafell and Amendola aren't even as good a tandem as Baldwin and Kearse, and they aren't very good.

[DanteGabriel]

Oh yeah, on the conspiracy theory about Carroll calling a pass there because he didn't want Lynch to be the hero: does that mean he knew that Lynch would get stopped short of the end zone on first and goal from the 5?

Not to inject too much logic into this conspiracy. I mean, I'd love it if some of the Seahawks' players actually bought into that and nursed a grudge against their coach and QB. Maybe they can can start a fight with each other next time they're on the wrong side of a victory formation.

[Jaime L]

All great coach-QB pairings are symbiotic. A good coach is pretty limited without a good QB. A good coach with a good QB can make each other better. And I recognize how lucky we in New England have been to see this. Some sports fans never get anything like this in all their lives across all the major sports leagues.

Absolutely. And I'm curious how long it can last. Hard not to look at their (now) near perfect analogue with the Spurs and Duncan and Popp and look to that future point when their paths diverge. As Duncan's skills have begun their slow fade, Popp has figured out a reduced role for him where he can still be productive. There's a rare, protective stewardship of Duncan's career going on here. There's zero question of Duncan ever playing for another team.

And yet what are the chances it ends this well for Brady? Isn't he destined to end his career the same way Montana and Favre did? Wearing some unfamiliar uniform the second his contract exceeds his skills. He wants to play into his 40's after all.

Maybe Brady's the one exception to Belichick's mercenary mentality... or maybe he wouldn't be Belichick if he made exceptions to begin with. The man is Tywin Lannister - zero sentimentality. The Superbowl has proven Brady's worth at least for one more season but beyond that....

[DanteGabriel]

Absolutely. And I'm curious how long it can last. Hard not to look at their (now) near perfect analogue with the Spurs and Duncan and Popp and look to that future point when their paths diverge. As Duncan's skills have begun their slow fade, Popp has figured out a reduced role for him where he can still be productive. There's a rare, protective stewardship of Duncan's career going on here. There's zero question of Duncan ever playing for another team.

And yet what are the chances it ends this well for Brady? Isn't he destined to end his career the same way Montana and Favre did? Wearing some unfamiliar uniform the second his contract exceeds his skills. He wants to play into his 40's after all.

Maybe Brady's the one exception to Belichick's mercenary mentality... or maybe he wouldn't be Belichick if he made exceptions to begin with. The man is Tywin Lannister - zero sentimentality. The Superbowl has proven Brady's worth at least for one more season but beyond that....

Yeah, I'm preparing for it. Shit, in Week 4 of this season I thought we were within a calendar year of the Garoppolo era.

Tom Brady's dad thinks it will end badly for Brady too:

"It will end badly," he told the magazine. "It does end badly. And I know that because I know what Tommy wants to do. He wants to play 'til he's 70. ... It's a cold business. And for as much as you want it to be familial, it isn't."

Wise words, Mr. Brady. Every business that tells you they're a family is bullshitting you, unless it is literally a mom and pop joint. That's why I really appreciate this win. Why it'll make me happier for longer than the others. The knowledge of an end, probably a somewhat bitter one, some time in the not-too-distant future is part of what made this one sweeter than the others.

I ended up rooting for the Chiefs when Montana led them against the 49ers.

[trickster]

False. We could have beaten the Ravens. A few factors to consider:

1. @ Indy, where the defense played really well all year outside of the NE game.

2. When Baltimore came to Indy earlier this year, they were mauled. The game was a 1 score affair because of 4 Colts turnovers in the redzone, including an Ahmad Bradshaw fumble with less than 2 minutes to play, but the Ravens offense did absolutely nothing all game.

3. Matchups. Baltimore cornerbacks #87835 and #31543 are not exactly Revis and Browner out there. Also, Steve Smith would be erased by Vonte Davis and the Ravens have no TE to exploit the middle of the field.

We could have beaten the Ravens. In fact, the Ravens and the Bengals were the only 2 teams in the playoffs I was absolutely sure we could beat. Just because they played the Pats tough does not mean they would have walked all over the Colts @ Indy. Football games don't work like that, and shame on you because you should know better. Ravens matched up with NE very well, NE matched up with Colts very well, and Colts matched up with Ravens very well.

Also, Katy Perry's show was awesome.

You don't need to remind me what my team did against the Ravens woman! But, playoff Joe Flacco is a different beast. Ravens played in NE and almost won. I know Ravens are a better matchup for us than NE. But I would have picked the Ravens to win in Indy.

Manning picking coaches and pretty players who are fast is complete BS. It is literally an argument put forward by BS (Simmons). Brady bought into Belichick's system because he was, at the start of his career, a nobody who was happy that the hoodie gave him an opportunity. In NE, Belichick is the system. The rest are replaceable parts.

I do not see any evidence of Manning choosing his coaches. Certainly not Dungy. Not sure how Caldwell got promoted, I still remember Peyton's reaction to that insane timeout in the playoffs game against the Jets. Broncos were Manning's second choice, he wanted to go to Huston. But they already had the pick six machine. In Huston, Manning would have had one major passing weapon( Andre Johnson). Before Manning played for the Broncos, we never knew that they had decent receiving options. You need to give credit to Manning for recognising that and making them the player they are. DT did not have a clue about running routes. Also Emmanuel Sanders signing worked out pretty well for them. He went from a six hundred yards guys to a 1400 yards guy. He is tough as nails.

Brady's receiving options are top notch, not sure why people keep saying he doeS not have weapons. He has probably the best pass catching TE in the history of NFL in Gronk ( who is a mean blocker). Edelman is fantastic, do not buy into 'he was undrafted' crap. If teams knew how good he can become, he would have been drafted in round 1. Lafell as you pointed out is a legit number 2 receiver. Verin is a great receiving back.

What am I trying to prove? Not sure....

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Maybe Brady's the one exception to Belichick's mercenary mentality... or maybe he wouldn't be Belichick if he made exceptions to begin with. The man is Tywin Lannister - zero sentimentality. The Superbowl has proven Brady's worth at least for one more season but beyond that....

THAT...is going to be fun to watch, especially from a Pats Hater's perspective. You know that day is coming, probably sooner as opposed to later.

[DanteGabriel]

Edelman is fantastic, do not buy into 'he was undrafted' crap.

Actually he was drafted in the 7th round.

I think you are overstating the case for the Patriots' receivers. And it's not just about the quality of the player. How much of the salary cap is invested in Brady's receivers? How much salary cap was spent on the likes of Wayne, Harrison, and Dallas Clark? Emmanuel Sanders is actually an instructive example, because the Pats only offered $2.5 million for a one-year contract for him. The Broncos gave him 3 years at $15 million the next year. Clearly one team was willing to commit more money and years to the guy.

Has Brady had any receivers to work with as long as Manning had Harrison and Wayne? The Colts kept around Manning's main guys. Paid them their extensions. The Patriots let Brady's guys walk -- Deion Branch got traded before he could ask for too much money. Welker walked. Randy Moss got traded when he started agitating. Brady's constantly had to break in new guys. Manning got to keep his expensive binkies as long as he liked. Don't try and make an argument that Manning and Brady had comparable levels of input in their skill player support.

[Rockroi]

After last night, I'm not buying that Brady has no weapons left. We all know what Gronk is, but Edelman is really fucking good. He's not just a product of Brady at this point. Vereen is one of the best receiving backs in the league. Blount is really fucking good, I cannot understand why NE is the only team that will let him play. Lafell is a solid #2 WR. Even Amendola (who kinda sucks) played for a year with a torn groin.

I don't think its a question of him having no weapons- though that looked like the case after that terrible KC game; I think its more about what he, apparently, lacks; most notably a deep threat, but ... not only does it seem unclear if Brady even needs one, it seems even more uncertain if Brady could even utilize him at this point in his career. Brady's deep ball... kinda sucks.

I think your look at some of the weapons is, pretty spot on. Gronk is a monster and, at this rate, is a HoF'er. But this was the first season where he was healthy through the whole pre-and-post season since 2010. THat is no small thing. Maybe the most underrated aspect of this team was how healthy it stayed and how meaningless its major injuries were- ie: Ridley and Mayo. Edleman is really good, but he's such an exception; are there any wide-outs in the NFL that fit his type? Amendola is also sort of strange- he actually played pretty well this season; Belichcik loves him, and he frankly had a pretty great post-season.

Blount... I'm uncertain on how good he really is. His two biggest games were both against the Colts and he's only been okay against everyone else (hardly used at all against the Ravens; terrible against the Seahawks). I am pretty happy to have him, but he's not a long-term solution to the loss of Ridley.

Shane Vareen is the Patriot. I know its an obnoxious thing to say, but of all the current players the Pats have, Vareen seems to be the player who was the most interchangeable with those 2001-2006 teams (ie: Kevin Faulk), other than Brady (obviously). He seems to be the most ubiquitously Patriots. And I think he is incredible. He had 11 catches and they were all so necessary.

And the thing is, those guys aren't just good, they're tough as nails. Every Patriots WR got his ass plastered at least once last night, but they just kept coming back for more. I attribute that to quality coaching from Belichick for both finding the guys and motivating them.

No argument here. Unlike 2006 and 2009, the Pats' position players are tough mother fuckers. Even Amendola is just a guy who does his job, and tries even when hurt (though, he gets hurt too much).

Absolutely. And I'm curious how long it can last. Hard not to look at their (now) near perfect analogue with the Spurs and Duncan and Popp and look to that future point when their paths diverge. As Duncan's skills have begun their slow fade, Popp has figured out a reduced role for him where he can still be productive. There's a rare, protective stewardship of Duncan's career going on here. There's zero question of Duncan ever playing for another team.

This seems crazy, but it certainly doesn't feel like its coming to an end. This does not feel like Elway 1998 or Warner 2008; it feels like a team that can stay together for a long haul (with one EXTRAORDINARY CAVEAT- R.E.V.I.S.). Supposedly, the 2014 Pats were the "youngest" team to ever win a Superbowl. The coaching staff is more interchangeable than the cast of a reality TV show (other than Belichick). Most of the guys want to stay on the team and make this work. And the team has shown a great ability to get guys into the team who will fill a role and do pretty incredible things. Look at Ayers and Blount, to name just two.

And yet what are the chances it ends this well for Brady? Isn't he destined to end his career the same way Montana and Favre did? Wearing some unfamiliar uniform the second his contract exceeds his skills. He wants to play into his 40's after all.

As much as I would love to say it will end differently, it seems designed to end badly for him too. Belichick is not sentimental in that way, and Brady wants to play well into his forties or until he "sucks." That is not a good combination.

But this is what Rolling Stone said about the issue:

You know how older athletes, at times, will put things together for one last run, and even the fans who didn't like them will suddenly feel a twinge of nostalgia and respect? Well, absolutely none of that is happening in regards to the Patriots or Belichick. During the national anthem before the Super Bowl, his picture went up on the scoreboard and the crowd booed. Yes, booed during the national anthem....

And now, as we reach the end – uh, no. Never mind. Not yet.

That would make me sound nostalgic, and if there's one thing I've learned watching Belichick operate all these years is that he doesn't get nostalgic. Even Brady knows that if he stops eating kale and gets older, Belichick will dump him. Like Nick Nolte said in North Dallas Forty, the players aren't the team. They're the equipment.

It is cold, it is callous, but it is also calculated. Belichick seems to have figured out the math of the salary cap, keeping only a core group of big-dollar players, trading off others for draft picks and rebuilding on the fly.

I'd get into the future here, but the future seems pretty clear: Belichick will improve his offensive and defensive lines with people we've never heard of, and Brady will still be eating rabbit food, and both men will continue to prolong their careers – much to the consternation of critics everywhere. And if something does go wrong, and Brady can't beat Mother Nature?

Well, the guy backing him up will probably turn out to be the next Aaron Rodgers or (Steve Young) or Tom Brady. You remember his name, right?

So... yeah... I think Brady will be better even in the always shifting short-term. And when its time to go, Belichcik is likely to be the "sooner" and Brady the "later."

Now... go out and sign Revis.

[Mya Stone]

THAT...is going to be fun to watch, especially from a Pats Hater's perspective. You know that day is coming, probably sooner as opposed to later.

And I will be on the ground, channeling my inner Nancy Kerrigan, yelling "Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy..."

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

And I will be on the ground, channeling my inner Nancy Kerrigan, yelling "Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy..."

http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/Lumpy67/media/CutBradyNationwide_zps5a351e17.jpg.html

[Kalbear]

It's kind of interesting. With Peyton, we know now without a shadow of a doubt that he was The Guy. Like, he got almost no help from coaches. Manning's biggest flaw is his inability to adapt - that is probably Brady's strength as well - but it's pretty clear that Manning's system is Manning's system, period. There's very little doubt in my mind that his coaches get very little credit for whatever Manning has done.

With Brady and Belichick it's much harder to say. I'm also not sure that Brady is going to play after NE, so we may never get an idea on it.

[DanteGabriel]

It's kind of interesting. With Peyton, we know now without a shadow of a doubt that he was The Guy. Like, he got almost no help from coaches.

Got no help, or accepted no help? I made the point before that Manning's head coaches have been defensive specialists or non-entities.

I'd have loved to have seen Manning on Belichick's team. Who wins control there?

[Kalbear]

I don't know. I think that would have been pretty well impossible to manage. Manning's a huge control freak. I get the impression Belichick isn't a control freak so much as he is very detail oriented, whereas with Manning I think it actively bothers him when things aren't to his specifications, if that makes any sense.

I think Belichick could have helped Manning a lot, because I think Manning really lacks the innovative abilities Belichick has shown. Manning is precise to a laser point and is very good at making others around him significantly better - but he isn't going to come up with something that no one has ever seen. He's going to refine something known to the best form it can be. I think if Manning had someone like Belichick he would have been able to get past that...well, that Manning offense he runs.