Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

BearQueen87

R+L=J v.132

Recommended Posts

Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Radio Westeros podcast:

A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?
Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.
Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?
Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?
He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.
There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?
We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter?
In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?
Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.
George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.
On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.
Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?
The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."
We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.
"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?
No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?
Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?
Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?
The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.
In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?
There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:
Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)

"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)

"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)

"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)

"R+L=J v. 130" (thread one hundred thirty)

R+L=J v.131 (thread one hundred thirty one)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New shiny!



So, have we talked about the way GRRM originally presented Jon in this letter that came out?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, have we talked about the way GRRM originally presented Jon in this letter that came out?

Brace yourselves. The Jonra fans are coming :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My BS detector is going off pretty strong (I've only just seen it tonight.... bad work schedule). Has there been anything that suggests its really legitimate?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has there been anything that suggests its really legitimate?

It came from the legitimate Waterstones twitter page, and I believe they tagged HarperCollins in the original tweet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It came from the legitimate Waterstones twitter page, and I believe they tagged HarperCollins in the original tweet.

To me, that seems idiotic. If I was a writer, I wouldn't trust them with anything from that point on. I get entrusted with confidential information at work all the time. If I went out and tweeted BP this, or Exxon this (throwing out two major companies in my city for an example. Not even sure if the firm I work for is engaged with one of them), and posted a picture of in-process business plans, I would be fired so fast, I'd get whiplash. The company I work for would likely lose their accounts with those companies. Maybe I'm wrong, but call me skeptical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, that seems idiotic. If I was a writer, I wouldn't trust them with anything from that point on. I get entrusted with confidential information at work all the time. If I went out and tweeted BP this, or Exxon this (throwing out two major companies in my city for an example. Not even sure if the firm I work for is engaged with one of them), and posted a picture of in-process business plans, I would be fired so fast, I'd get whiplash. The company I work for would likely lose their accounts with those companies. Maybe I'm wrong, but call me skeptical.

It's on Westeros. org with a thank you from Ran, it's legit but also suggests we have a very different story, which we do. They would never do this without Martins approval, so this probably does not bother him at all. It's just an orginal outline from back in the day, everyone is making theories about it.

I think it is really intresting, but I would love to see the 13 chapters he submited back then. Reddit is busy trying to figure out what is behind the redacted section, without actually having the paper, so they are now the NSA.

It's a good thing none of us are fanatical about the series or things could get weird. We would be talking about the secret meaning of Kit's haircut and writing all kinds of theories, and trying to decipher Christmas cards with ASOIAF theme. But luckily level heads prevail around these parts. Next week will be talking about a T-Shirt Martin wore, like the Greyjoy conspiracy shirt of 2013 and this must mean Theon will be king. Or perhaps a Star Wars reference a character made, or maybe that time some crazy genius counted all the uses of three in the books and coded it. Yeeeeeaaaah, everything is status quo around these parts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's on Westeros. org with a thank you from Ran, it's legit but also suggests we have a very different story, which we do. They would never do this without Martins approval, so this probably does not bother him at all. It's just an orginal outline from back in the day, everyone is making theories about it.

I think it is really intresting, but I would love to see the 13 chapters he submited back then. Reddit is busy trying to figure out what is behind the redacted section, without actually having the paper, so they are now the NSA.

It's a good thing none of us are fanatical about the series or things could get weird. We would be talking about the secret meaning of Kit's haircut and writing all kinds of theories, and trying to decipher Christmas cards with ASOIAF theme. But luckily level heads prevail around these parts. Next week will be talking about a T-Shirt Martin wore, like the Greyjoy conspiracy shirt of 2013 and this must mean Theon will be king. Or perhaps a Star Wars reference a character made, or maybe that time some crazy genius counted all the uses of three in the books and coded it. Yeeeeeaaaah, everything is status quo around these parts.

Well, his interview where he says South park got it wrong, and he likes boobies much more than weiners, clearly means that Arianne will take the throne. I don't know about the rest of that stuff though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, that seems idiotic. If I was a writer, I wouldn't trust them with anything from that point on. I get entrusted with confidential information at work all the time. If I went out and tweeted BP this, or Exxon this (throwing out two major companies in my city for an example. Not even sure if the firm I work for is engaged with one of them), and posted a picture of in-process business plans, I would be fired so fast, I'd get whiplash. The company I work for would likely lose their accounts with those companies. Maybe I'm wrong, but call me skeptical.

Well I think the point is that the story we got is so different from what's described in that letter that the letter becomes a "curiosity" and not a spoiler or a give-away of intimate details. Anything spoilery in the letter was redacted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@BearQueen87, in the OP, the link of 'On Polygamy essay' (under 'Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?') links wrongly. Of links to the end of thread 123, but shouldn't ut be linking to posts 267, 274 and 277 on page 14?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's on Westeros. org with a thank you from Ran, it's legit but also suggests we have a very different story, which we do. They would never do this without Martins approval, so this probably does not bother him at all. It's just an orginal outline from back in the day, everyone is making theories about it.

I think it is really intresting, but I would love to see the 13 chapters he submited back then. Reddit is busy trying to figure out what is behind the redacted section, without actually having the paper, so they are now the NSA.

It's a good thing none of us are fanatical about the series or things could get weird. We would be talking about the secret meaning of Kit's haircut and writing all kinds of theories, and trying to decipher Christmas cards with ASOIAF theme. But luckily level heads prevail around these parts. Next week will be talking about a T-Shirt Martin wore, like the Greyjoy conspiracy shirt of 2013 and this must mean Theon will be king. Or perhaps a Star Wars reference a character made, or maybe that time some crazy genius counted all the uses of three in the books and coded it. Yeeeeeaaaah, everything is status quo around these parts.

:lol:

It was weird for me, reading the outline. I mean, Arya and Jon are my favourites, so it freaked the hell out of me that George actually planned for them to be in some kind of forbidden love story. I hope that this particular ship has sailed for him a long time ago. There is not a lot of things that would ruin the joy of reading his saga, but this particular pairing actually might take some of it out. Just thinking about Jon being with someone who looks so much like his mother, who he watched and cared for since she was a little babe...no, just no. And yet, when I think about the characters in the future books I can't really say that George would not... :eek:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:lol:

It was weird for me, reading the outline. I mean, Arya and Jon are my favourites, so it freaked the hell out of me that George actually planned for them to be in some kind of forbidden love story. I hope that this particular ship has sailed for him a long time ago. There is not a lot of things that would ruin the joy of reading his saga, but this particular pairing actually might take some of it out. Just thinking about Jon being with someone who looks so much like his mother, who he watched and cared for since she was a little babe...no, just no. And yet, when I think about the characters in the future books I can't really say that George would not... :eek:

Allow them to grow a few years, have them meet people and make their own personal choices. Book Arya is not going to marry some princeling just to get her own castle, she all ready knows how to kill everybody inside one without anybody noticing she's there. If she finds a humble leader who actually sets her world right without having to brag about that: That would, maybe, be something very different.

But first things first: The Others to run all over Westeros, as witnessed by Sam in Oldtown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I can never forget these two things:


someone who looks so much like his mother, who he watched and cared for since she was a little babe




They grew up with together as brother and sister.



But what we should take from this outline is that George thought vows were no longer in the way (is there something else beside romance?) for Jon, when he finds out his true parentage!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I can never forget these two things:

They grew up with together as brother and sister.

But what we should take from this outline is that George thought vows were no longer in the way (is there something else beside romance?) for Jon, when he finds out his true parentage!!!

Yeah, he was supposed to find out in the third book, so there would have been enough time for him to get killed, or find another way to get out of the watch. It seems clear he wasn't supposed to die as a sworn brother. That doesn't mean George hasn't changed his mind about that thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a good thing none of us are fanatical about the series or things could get weird. We would be talking about the secret meaning of Kit's haircut and writing all kinds of theories, and trying to decipher Christmas cards with ASOIAF theme. But luckily level heads prevail around these parts. Next week will be talking about a T-Shirt Martin wore, like the Greyjoy conspiracy shirt of 2013 and this must mean Theon will be king. Or perhaps a Star Wars reference a character made, or maybe that time some crazy genius counted all the uses of three in the books and coded it. Yeeeeeaaaah, everything is status quo around these parts.

:rofl:

But what we should take from this outline is that George thought vows were no longer in the way (is there something else beside romance?) for Jon, when he finds out his true parentage!!!

Yeah that is a thing I noticed too, It seems that Jon's vows are not going to get in the way eventually so we can assume that there is a strong possibility that Jon will be release from them or that nobody would care if he doesn't respect them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:lol:

It was weird for me, reading the outline. I mean, Arya and Jon are my favourites, so it freaked the hell out of me that George actually planned for them to be in some kind of forbidden love story. I hope that this particular ship has sailed for him a long time ago. There is not a lot of things that would ruin the joy of reading his saga, but this particular pairing actually might take some of it out. Just thinking about Jon being with someone who looks so much like his mother, who he watched and cared for since she was a little babe...no, just no. And yet, when I think about the characters in the future books I can't really say that George would not... :eek:

I think it has...Meera Reed took over Arya's part beyond the wall (as Bran's companion), and Alys Karstark took over the part of 'family' coming to the wall asking for help.... Jeyne Poole, too in a way, though not by any doing of her own. So the moral conflict Jon had over his vows is still present...and who knows, maybe he will fall in love with Alys, and, oh no, he gave her hand in marriage to Sigorn! ;)

I can see Jon/Arya happening only in specific circumstances, with these two being so utterly destroyed by what they have seen and lived through, that they cannot find any closure with anyone else..."Every one who isn't us, is an enemy."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I'd like to know is whether the Rhaegar/Lyanna/Robert triangle was derived from the original Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle during all the changes to the story, or if they were both supposed to exist and Jon/Arya/Tyrion was supposed to be an parallel, a "this time they got it right" happy ending. Either way, the Jon/Arya/Tyrion is so similiar to Rhaegar/Lyanna/Robert that it seems like a plus for R+L=J.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It might just be that I'm accustomed to the story as we know it...but I like the way the story is told now...I tried to envision the story as it was originally outlined...and it didn't just have the right feel to it. I'm glad he made the changes he did.



Plus...Joffrey on the battlefield!?!?!


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×