R+L=J v.132

[Alia of the knife]

Finally read.

I'm glad that the original plan involved a love triangle. That's for those who say "GRRM doesn't do cliche/he's the breaker of tropes!". Heh.

I think more than anything, the point Martin makes is the "unresolved," and the "loose ends" that cause history to repeat itself, which continues to cause wars, rebellions and unrest.

You could make the point that the unresolved issues or the soft continuation of hostilities from WW1 led to WW2.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had been allowed to survive and live in peace, with Rhaegar as king, then what is happening now may not be happening. (Of course there is no guarentee that Jon and Aegon would have gotten along even raised as brothers given the Targaryen history).

Viserys and Dany might have married, and a Targaryen child might have been given back to House Berantheon in marriage to make up for Lyannas loss. Jon might have even married Myrcella if there was a Myrcella.

Of course Aerys didn't give Ned, Robert and Jon Aryn much of a choice but to fight or lose their lives.

So, anything that plays out with the next generation in terms of resolving past issues should be allowed to play out.

[Ser Creighton]

If you play the theme song backwards, I'm sure there is a message hidden there. :ph34r:

(And say, given what I suspect your other life is, wouldn't you be better suited to deciphering that code on Reddit)? B)

EDIT: Saw on the other thread the Redds have cracked it, and its apparently about the OTHERS. (Who by the way, have great fashion sense).

Wait till you see how Random this post becomes.

Nope not going there, this is my happy place. If I came here to work it would it would be my not happy place and I need my happy place. They appear to be on a good track, though if you really wanted to be super accurate, you should analyze the typeface and superimpose it rather than a font subset. Really a typographic expert which I am not would have that done pretty quickly. And honestly they should of used redaction tape to cover the redacted section. Their own fault, so far there is nothing there that surprises me. The are having a few problems with the gaps, because they are not using the right typeface or spacing. But close enough, they just would not be looking for lets say a 4 letter word then realizing it was a three letter word. You know they may have some experts looking at this, fans come in all shapes and sizes, it's not like you need for any legal purpose. So close enough really works just fine.

Now lets see what it says and... well goodness me, look at little princess hot pants, were does that say she is at? What is she doing? Gosh that is so not obvious who would of thought that?

I got a more important question. Arya, possiibly Sansa, or Dany, Targcest, Jaime and Cersei, did Martin have some super hot sister we don't know about? I know how things were in the middle ages, but still you can make a point you don't have to celebrate it.

Finally read.

I'm glad that the original plan involved a love triangle. That's for those who say "GRRM doesn't do cliche/he's the breaker of tropes!". Heh.

Though we didn't get that love triangle, though we may get a different one. Well we already got one love triangle. Well does LF, Brandon and Cat count? I think it does so that's 2, Lancel, Jaime and Cersie? Hmmm for Jaime it was. If you go through all of it you will probably find a few more like BR, BS, and SS. So I am not sure how the idea of a love triangle could surprise anyone. Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna. Lets just hope not Sansa, Arya and Jon, cause honestly that's just crossing a line, though Jon and his Sisters who are actually his cousins. But still his sisters, some adopted brother on actual cousin love. All three at once, that would not freak anyone out, well probably not you at least. But the other 99.9999999% of the reading population probably freak out, Arya and Sansa together at last, Jon brings about the unity of opposition. Oh you know else probably wouldn't mind a specific subset of the current prison population, I think that subset can go unnamed.

Though I tend think your own reason for being ok with it would be to watch the agony of other fans and lick up their sweet, sweet tears.

I mean if Martin was really a breaker of tropes, instead something like Twincest, we would have Conjoined Twincest.

Me I think I will stick comfortably in the Dany and Jon eventually hook up. I have my reasons, strictly book oriented. But I admit, I kind of want to see Conjoined Twincest now, they could be the song of ice and fire. They could have a conjoined dragon, attatched at the tail. Though it would probably be a sad dragon, cause it can't fly like the other dragons, it just sort of hovers in one place.

Curious about something, after realizing we basically just finished act 1 in Dance, and knowing there are two more acts I decided to look at open plots and subplots, areas that lack resolution. And oh dear god, he has resolved next to nothing, he just kept opening new plots. You might have a character with several massive obsticals in there path, and he will just toss a new obstical in the mix for no reason and not resolve any of the old ones. I was doing it with another poster (phrasing), and at one point just had to stop and instead of using characters, we were just like ok Dorne, forget all the subplots and just say Dorne, don't do the Jon list just say Jon Snow who is a subset of the Targs, Starks, Watch, Wildlings, Others, then break it down further, to see how many plot points he has in each of those, and you can actually take it one step past that, if you include prophecies and mysteries.

I get it, it's a serial episodic story with lots of act breaks and plots and sub plots and little resolution. Basically it's Dallas, Meets General Hospital, Meets Passions, Meets Falcon Crest, Meets Dynasty, Meets Days of our lives meets the War of the roses, Meets Dungeons and Dragons. Who shot JR? Who was the 4th knife, shhhhhhhhh secret.

Seriously what does the opening remind you of anything?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8

Now here are the originals.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1iYjgMygIag

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZT4lQHoK8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AVu01ShJ5qA

Mix in a little as the World Turns and Days of our lives.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gDkHO_9nRWQ

There you go, it's a Soap Opera, or as my Grandma used to say, "it's time for my stories" well that and Carol Burnett, dear god I have become my grandmother.

[BearQueen87]

dear god I have become my grandmother.

This is really the takeaway from your whole post.

So, back to my original question. Seems like Jon was a far less complicated character in the original letter. A ranger, not a steward. Seems like he might have been less melancholy. Do we think that Jon changed after GRRM began to flesh out Rhaegar more?

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is really the takeaway from your whole post.

So, back to my original question. Seems like Jon was a far less complicated character in the original letter. A ranger, not a steward. Seems like he might have been less melancholy. Do we think that Jon changed after GRRM began to flesh out Rhaegar more?

I suspect that Jon changed as GRRM thought harder about what he wanted his "hero" to appear to be. If Jon is a self-confident ranger who just kicks ass left and right, then he is more of a prototypical (dare I say cliche) main character in an adventure story. But if GRRM puts disappointments in Jon's way by forcing him to be a steward when he wants to be a ranger and having bouts of self-doubt, a few things are accomplished. Jon arguably becomes a more interesting and three-dimensional character (yes, I understand the irony that many readers still consider Jon to be a boring character) and to some extent this path hides from many readers that Jon is destined to be the main hero of the series.

I suspect that any parallels to Rhaegar went both ways--as Jon was fleshed out, it impacted how Rhaegar would be described and then that process fed on itself in both directions.

Of course, I am pulling these theories out of my butt, although they make sense to me (but maybe not to anyone else).

[BearQueen87]

I suspect that Jon changed as GRRM thought harder about what he wanted his "hero" to appear to be. If Jon is a self-confident ranger who just kicks ass left and right, then he is more of a prototypical (dare I say cliche) main character in an adventure story. But if GRRM puts disappointments in Jon's way by forcing him to be a steward when he wants to be a ranger and having bouts of self-doubt, a few things are accomplished. Jon arguably becomes a more interesting and three-dimensional character (yes, I understand the irony that many readers still consider Jon to be a boring character) and to some extent this path hides from many readers that Jon is destined to be the main hero of the series.

I suspect that any parallels to Rhaegar went both ways--as Jon was fleshed out, it impacted how Rhaegar would be described and then that process fed on itself in both directions.

Of course, I am pulling these theories out of my butt, although they make sense to me (but maybe not to anyone else).

No they totally make sense to me as well.

I am very glad he fleshed Jon out more. I think he would have annoyed me to no end if he had stayed as Original! Jon.

[Ser Leftwich]

An odd thing occurred to me, there have specifically been no king POVs. But we have Dany, who is of course a queen, not a king.

Does this say anything about Jon?

Will he not be a king? Or potentially more interesting, if he does become a king, will he cease to be a POV for the rest of the last book?

[JonSnow4President]

An odd thing occurred to me, there have specifically been no king POVs. But we have Dany, who is of course a queen, not a king.

Does this say anything about Jon?

Will he not be a king? Or potentially more interesting, if he does become a king, will he cease to be a POV for the rest of the last book?

I think that's just literary necessity. Kings are plotters here, at least while the game of thrones is still being played on a massive scale. Martin can't give us the plotter's plans, without letting us in on it. It's only when the ruler is particularly inept/new at the plotting game (Daenerys, Cersei, Jon to an extent as LC) that we get the ruler's POV. Dany has been a particularly poor driver of the "game," to this point her story has been driven more by her reactions to others plots. The one chance where we get her being a driver, Martin hides her thoughts from us (Astapor) until it's happened. THAT is why we haven't had king POVs.

[domio1425]

Is it me or does Martin enjoy his royal characters to be born amidst tragedy/battles? Rhaegar at Summerhall, Jon at the Tower of Joy, Daenerys at Dragonstone and Mances child at the wall as a few examples.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Is it me or does Martin enjoy his royal characters to be born amidst tragedy/battles? Rhaegar at Summerhall, Jon at the Tower of Joy, Daenerys at Dragonstone and Mances child at the wall as a few examples.

Dany at Dragonstone - that was a storm hence she earned her name Stormborn. Aemon Steelsong - an actual battle. Children are born when they are due, outside pressure may help to deliver them, sometimes. Royal children are no exeption. Still most of them are born in an otherwise peaceful envireonment.

The ones you enumerated are quite important to the story, so I think GRRM wanted to highlight their importance with a dramatic environment for their births. There's literary precedence for that, think of Christ. And it is true: real children are born under real dramatic circumstances all the time. So why not in a story?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

It's funny how some threads get locked for "going nowhere" yet these are still here -__-

[Jon Weirgaryen]

It's funny how some threads get locked for "going nowhere" yet these are still here -__-

That joke has been pulled very recently, but these threads get locked, too: 131 of them have been locked, see the OP. Many of them did indeed go a long way, some of them... not so much. Hard to tell in advance, though.

Don't forget to mention it here if you find something new.

[Mithras]

An odd thing occurred to me, there have specifically been no king POVs. But we have Dany, who is of course a queen, not a king.

Does this say anything about Jon?

Will he not be a king? Or potentially more interesting, if he does become a king, will he cease to be a POV for the rest of the last book?

Currently Jon is not a king.

[Han Snow]

Currently Jon is not a king.

...and I wonder, does: "I want to see Aragorn rule and making hard decisions as a king"... Or however that exact SSM went, apply to Dany ruling in Meeren or will we see the Final King/Queen ruling? Will it be after the LN 2.0? From their own POV's? Or is Dany and Cersei it (what we got so far)?

[Greymoon]

Is it me or does Martin enjoy his royal characters to be born amidst tragedy/battles? Rhaegar at Summerhall, Jon at the Tower of Joy, Daenerys at Dragonstone and Mances child at the wall as a few examples.

....physical exertion and anguish that can provoke childbirth, especially in the last stages of pregnancy. So in a way, it's also quite 'normal' for these children to have been born when and where they were, since their very pregnant mothers were placed in very stressful environments.... Dalla, in Mance's camp, after weeks of traveling with the wildling host, has sudden contractions only days after Mance's first attack on the wall -- and just when Stannis showed up.

Lyanna had multiple reasons to feel anguished, learning of the battle of the trident and Rhaegar's death, could have provoked contractions, too. Dany starts having them when MMD does her magic. It can be argued that MMD was already doing something to Rhaego -- or maybe, the contractions started only because of the general anguish Dany suffered...I don't think we can say anything for sure...

And Rhaella at Summerhall....how ever she escaped the fire it probably took a toll on her body, leading to Rhaegar's birth....

[XSarellaX]

Do you think Martin still intended to write Jon/Arya when he wrote the final vetsion of aGoT? I wonder if the scenes between them were made to set up a future romance...

I still cant get over it. I probably never will.

[imaginepageant]

An odd thing occurred to me, there have specifically been no king POVs. But we have Dany, who is of course a queen, not a king.

Does this say anything about Jon?

Will he not be a king? Or potentially more interesting, if he does become a king, will he cease to be a POV for the rest of the last book?

I was thinking about this just the other week. As much as I'd love to see Jon on the Iron Throne, I think the "rule" of no ruling POVs means he won't be. Stannis would be the best contender in that regard, but of course it could be someone else entirely, whose POV we have never had. But, it's not like that "rule" is set in stone so it doesn't rule out Jon becoming king.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Or we just get no more JON (Snow) POV chapters once he is king of Gondor. We may get SAM chapters instead. Simple as that.

[BearQueen87]

If Jon is elected King through a GC, we'll see it through someone elses eyes (Tyrion or Arya perhaps?)

[Mithras]

If Jon is elected King through a GC, we'll see it through someone elses eyes (Tyrion or Arya perhaps?)

Sam ;)

[Mithras]

Bran’s father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father’s face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.

He doesn’t understand. “My lord,” Sam said, “my f-f-f-father, Lord Randyll, he, he, he, he, he . . . the life of a maester is a life of servitude.” He was babbling, he knew. “No son of House Tarly will ever wear a chain. The men of Horn Hill do not bow and scrape to petty lords.” If it is chains you want, come with me. “Jon, I cannot disobey my father.”

Jon, he’d said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice. “You have no father,” said Lord Snow. “Only brothers. Only us. Your life belongs to the Night’s Watch, so go and stuff your smallclothes into a sack, along with anything else you care to take to Oldtown. You leave an hour before sunrise. And here’s another order. From this day forth, you will not call yourself a craven. You’ve faced more things this past year than most men face in a lifetime. You can face the Citadel, but you’ll face it as a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch. I can’t command you to be brave, but I can command you to hide your fears. You said the words, Sam. Remember?”

“My lord, my f-f-f-father, Lord Randyll, he, he, he, he, he … the life of a maester is a life of servitude. No son of House Tarly will ever wear a chain. The men of Horn Hill do not bow and scrape to petty lords. Jon, I cannot disobey my father.”

Kill the boy, Jon thought. The boy in you, and the one in him. Kill the both of them, you bloody bastard. “You have no father. Only brothers. Only us. Your life belongs to the Night’s Watch, so go and stuff your smallclothes into a sack, along with anything else you care to take to Oldtown. You leave an hour before sunrise. And here’s another order. From this day forth, you will not call yourself a craven. You’ve faced more things this past year than most men face in a lifetime. You can face the Citadel, but you’ll face it as a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch. I can’t command you to be brave, but I can command you to hide your fears. You said the words, Sam. Remember?”

Compare this to the moment when Aragorn was crowned by Gandalf. He showed his true face at that moment and Frodo was like seeing him for the first time.