Ellfoy Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I was thinking about this just the other week. As much as I'd love to see Jon on the Iron Throne, I think the "rule" of no ruling POVs means he won't be. Stannis would be the best contender in that regard, but of course it could be someone else entirely, whose POV we have never had. But, it's not like that "rule" is set in stone so it doesn't rule out Jon becoming king. Well I don't think there is a rule: we have queens as POV and I think that is just a coincidence if we don't get kings, the kings in the story are just not the characters who make an impact in the overall story (which is not really the Game of Thrones). The "No king POV" rule is an invention of the readers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 There are a few new contributions and fun speculations: http://imgur.com/nFxVex6http://imgur.com/TQSKUE6 I don't know where they get the idea that GRRM had included dragons in the story line in 1993. As I recall, it was nearer 1996 that GRRM was convinced to include actual dragons in the story. De-redacting is tricky stuff, if you don't use words that are actually there, you can get your own speculations being included when they actually are nowhere near the same universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Where there's eggs, there's dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Where there's eggs, there's dragons. It is important to note that eggs indicate a dragon in the past, but do not indicate the presence of such at present. So, truly, it is, "Where there's eggs, there were dragons." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 To me, that seems idiotic. If I was a writer, I wouldn't trust them with anything from that point on. I get entrusted with confidential information at work all the time. If I went out and tweeted BP this, or Exxon this (throwing out two major companies in my city for an example. Not even sure if the firm I work for is engaged with one of them), and posted a picture of in-process business plans, I would be fired so fast, I'd get whiplash. The company I work for would likely lose their accounts with those companies. Maybe I'm wrong, but call me skeptical. This FAX apparently was a sales letter for a series to various publishers. GRRM was fishing for interest in his story, and possibly looking for an advance to do the writing. Different shades of motivations. If you were searching for a buyer, you need to advertise what you are selling. At present, because of the huge success for the series, it is unlikely that any of the publishers would criticize the direction that GRRM is taking, even the deviations from the outline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 JonSnow4President, If you will share this proprietary information with me, I will advise you on how to best utilize said information to your advantage in the stock market. It might be that it would not matter if you get fired, If you were holding the right options when said information goes public... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 It is important to note that eggs indicate a dragon in the past, but do not indicate the presence of such at present. So, truly, it is, "Where there's eggs, there were dragons." No, but the sentence "The birth of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will" makes it pretty clear there was at least one dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I don't know where they get the idea that GRRM had included dragons in the story line in 1993. As I recall, it was nearer 1996 that GRRM was convinced to include actual dragons in the story. De-redacting is tricky stuff, if you don't use words that are actually there, you can get your own speculations being included when they actually are nowhere near the same universe. No, but the sentence "The birth of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will" makes it pretty clear there was at least one dragon. I thought so too, MtnLion. But it is as RumHam says, it's just that the relevant passage is bleached out by the light reflection. I tried to enhance it a bit here. Another story is decrypting the 'blacked out' passage... worth of an Imitation Game ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 No, but the sentence "The birth of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will" makes it pretty clear there was at least one dragon.Actually Martin has said he debated the idea f Dragons on weather or not to include them and was finally convinced. So yeah they could of been there from the begining but he wwent back and fourth on them. There are probably transripts with and without them. But from the begining it seems he clearly had them in mind, and he has stated he is glad he in cluded them.Yet again another not a big deal from the treatment. It's an early treatment and everyone is trying to figure out what it means. It means we have a different story with 5 books worth of information and multiple novelles to look at. It's snot like we can't read the actual story to date, it's not like the books have gone missing. You can see were he kept some ideas and adapted them to the current story, but we do have a current story and that is where things stnad, it's intresting but does not really change the world for many fans. The redacted section, Sansa's eath, Arya and Jon, and probably the Neverborn are drawing the most intrest.Gosh lucky for the show this treatment was revealed right after a trailer and thrones in Imax so it can't possibly word of mouth publicity to get Thrones hype for season 5 to another level. I mean if you think about it the idea of the trailer with Jon Snow, a comment that Jon survives and the knowledge of what book readers know, can't possibly be leading up to a big gasp, shock, omg moment at the end of season 5.The treatment is real but also apppears just in time to be part of the publicity for season 5 at least to me. It's intresting, it's fun, there are some intresting things to discuss, but it does not change the current series. It does help to get people talking and thinking about the series though which does not hurt the show at all. World book, sneak peek trailer, actual trailer and Imax and now an old treatment. Something else will pop in a few weeks when this has calmed down some. All aboard the hype train, choo choo! You also have "leaked" photos out there showing all kinds of intresting things. Oh and this sunday we get a day in the Throne or whatever it's called on HBO, behind the seen look. Chugga Chugga Chugga Chugga choo choo! What is it like 8 or 9 weeks to the show? Makes sense to me.I'm pumped it's all good stuff, coming to the forum has been like going to a funeral for months, lets talk the same subject to death. New shit that's actually old shit and it's scary but cool and intresting. You know what thank god for small favors. Then comes the show with some winds stuff in it this season. It's all new talking points, don't fear the new people. The new can be scary, but as Monsters Inc showed us scary can be your friend and like hugs. There is some actual panic out there over this treatment, and the show passing the books. Enjoy the roller coaster, it can't always go up, it wouldn't be any fun if it did that. Of course some people may get sick, but they probably shouldn't have gotten on in the first place. Or they can close their eyes till it's over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imaginepageant Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 This has probably been mentioned before, but it just made me go OOH. In AGOT Arya III, re: chasing off Nymeria: "She kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so 'shamed, but it was right, wasn't it? The queen would have killed her." "It was right," her father said. "And even the lie was... not without honor." Like another lie not without honor, told by this same father, to keep the king from killing someone? Also, this is just a page after Ned compares Arya to Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 This has probably been mentioned before, but it just made me go OOH. In AGOT Arya III, re: chasing off Nymeria: "She kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so 'shamed, but it was right, wasn't it? The queen would have killed her." "It was right," her father said. "And even the lie was... not without honor." Like another lie not without honor, told by this same father, to keep the king from killing someone? Also, this is just a page after Ned compares Arya to Lyanna. Yup! And also this... Jon took a knee. The king frowned at him, and rattled the parchment angrily. “Rise. Tell me, who is Lyanna Mormont?” “One of Lady Maege’s daughters, Sire. The youngest. She was named for my lord father’s sister.” “To curry your lord father’s favor, I don’t doubt. I know how that game is played. **which brought me back to all those 'promise me, Ned' quotes in the first book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 This has probably been mentioned before, but it just made me go OOH. In AGOT Arya III, re: chasing off Nymeria: "She kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so 'shamed, but it was right, wasn't it? The queen would have killed her." "It was right," her father said. "And even the lie was... not without honor." Like another lie not without honor, told by this same father, to keep the king from killing someone? Also, this is just a page after Ned compares Arya to Lyanna. The honorable lie, that's been noted before yes... I find Arya's other sentence to be quite...interesting. Arya, is speaking about a She-Wolf, who was named after a warrior princess. (Lyanna is a She-Wolf and becomes a warrior 'Princess') She [Lyanna] whined and looked at me [Rhaegar], and I felt so 'shamed, but it was right, wasn't it? The Queen [Aerys] would have killed her. > if we follow Lady Gwyn's theory of a 'rescue at the crossroad.'.... There is parallels between Aerys and Cersei (> the burning of the tower of the hand for ex.)... and in Eddard III GoT, p. 149, UK Paperback, Cersei speaks for Robert, as if she were a King. He spoke to Robert but it was Cersei Lannister who answered. "how dare you speak to your King in that manner!" [...] the queen [the king] stepped forward "You know full well, Stark that girl [that boy] of yours attacked my son." [Aerys to Rickard about Brandon, in case that wasn't clear :) ] This whole ordeal happens during the journey south, when the King's party halts at the inn at the crossroads near the ruby fort. The very place where Tyrion was captured, too. In the previous chapter (Sansa I, GoT), before practicing swordsmanship with Mycah, Arya was looking for Rhaegar's rubies, and Sansa's adoration for the golden prince permeates the chapter as does Arya's willfulness. Sansa also reflects on bastardy, and her half-brother Jon...there a strong Lyanna/Rhaegar subtext... In Eddard III, p. 148 GoT UK paperback, this sentence stands out, too "King's men, Darry men, Lannister men and Stark men all crammed into a castle far too small for them, tensions burned hot and heavy." all have gathered at castle Darry while searching for Arya. a few lines above that, Ned thinks about how the Darrys fought beneath Rhaegar's dragon banner. Considered the often pointed out resemblance between Arya and Lyanna, the 'search for Arya' seems to lend support to the idea that Lyanna disappeared in that same area. During Lyanna's days, the people looking for her might have included King's men, Darry men, Tully men, Stark men....or Baratheon men? was Lyanna being escorted by some of Robert's men? .... it's really obvious, but, Maegor's second wife, was 'acquired' through a secret marriage ceremony, and Maegor's third wife, is suspiciously called Tyanna of the Tower. lol....this is just baiting us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 it's really obvious, but, Maegor's second wife, was 'acquired' through a secret marriage ceremony, and Maegor's third wife, is suspiciously called Tyanna of the Tower. lol....this is just baiting us. Especially, since we know that GRRM added these clues and hints after the fact, after he wrote about Rhaegar and Lyanna's story in the books. To me, the hints point to R+L, if not then they won't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 JonSnow4President, If you will share this proprietary information with me, I will advise you on how to best utilize said information to your advantage in the stock market. It might be that it would not matter if you get fired, If you were holding the right options when said information goes public... Insider trading is a thing. And if I were to tell you inside information, you are every bit as responsible as me if you acted on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 This has probably been mentioned before, but it just made me go OOH. In AGOT Arya III, re: chasing off Nymeria: "She kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so 'shamed, but it was right, wasn't it? The queen would have killed her." "It was right," her father said. "And even the lie was... not without honor." Like another lie not without honor, told by this same father, to keep the king from killing someone? Also, this is just a page after Ned compares Arya to Lyanna. Echoed strongly by the following passage involving Sam and... Jon: "Jon, could there be a honor in a lie, if it were told for a... a good purpose?" "It would depend on the lie and the purpose, I suppose." Interesting enough, their exchange revolves around Sam's plot to acknowledge the son of another as his own and to grow him up in his 'grandfather's castle'... Btw, the Imitation Game over at Reddit is making some progress: http://imgur.com/eI20VPo,tfYjW4N#0 with an addition: http://i.imgur.com/2G0ZgCY.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Insider trading is a thing. And if I were to tell you inside information, you are every bit as responsible as me if you acted on it. Insider Trading is a thing if you are Hedge Fund or a big fish... I am neither, we'll be okay as long as you don't send an email to FINRA or the SEC's Tip Center (& then there would still be a 99.999% chance that we would never hear from them)... But the best information would be information on smaller, publicly traded O&G companies. The Lower the company's market-cap, the more significant a given piece of information/news is like to be & thus have a greater impact on share price. Of course, you get around this to a certain degree by trading options instead of buying/shorting shares --- Okay, Back on topic:: Does anyone else think that we will see Varamyr again??? Normally Prologue/Epilogue POV are killed off to never be seen again, yet Varamyr (living on inside of One-Eye) was seen to become a member of Summer's Pack. We got such an incredible amount of backstory & psychology on this character, that I find it hard to believe that he will not influence the plot at some future point... Varamyr could conceivably corrupt either Bran or Jon Snow. His current proximity is with Bran, but the foreshadowing is there suggesting that Jon will be traveling North in TWoW. In ADwDs, GRRM let us know that there was a 2nd entrance into Bran's Cave - It was about a mile (I think) away from the entrance that we saw & cold-hands said that it was at the bottom of a sink-hole... ***To me, a sink-hole suggest that one can enter the cave this way, but one cannot exit the cave this way. Note: this may or may niot be true in the physical world, but I imagine that this is the function of a sink-hole in a literary setting. ***Also Note: I speculate that this sink-hole is the CotF's primary source of protein - critters that fall in get eaten, this explains all the strange tasting meats that Bran & the Reeds are eating in Bran's last chapter. Why would GRRM offer this very specific detail, if this 'backdoor' is not to be utilized at some point by someone (or some thing) gaining access to Bran's Cave? If this speculation is accurate (and it is the only logical use of one-way entrance I can think of) then the options are very limited on who (or what) could be entering the cave system. I think that it will be Jon/Ghost who accidentally stumbles into the caves... --- GRRM mentioned in an interview about a year (or more) ago that he was currently writing TWoW. Then Martin proposed a seemingly hypothetical scenario to describe the detail at which he writes:: [Paraphrasing] "So you have Jon Snow, alone, hungry, being pursued by enemies through the woods... What will Jon eat? What is the next sentence? What is the next word?" [Again, Paraphrasing tom memory, source unknown]... I propose the following: That was NOT a hypothetical scenario, GRRM was actually describing an event from TWoW... This is how GRRM operates. Everything has a hidden layer or two or three, Nothing is simply 'hypothetical' or straightforward... Jon/Ghost will fall into the sink-hole described above, thus evading the enemies who are pursuing him... Once safe, Jon/Ghost's hunger will become the most important thing to his/their survival... Jon/Ghost will encounter Jojen meandering around all depressed in the cave... Jon/Ghost will kill & eat Jojen... Why do I think this will happen? Because back in ACoKs, Meera & Jojen were in Winterfell's Godswood interacting with the direwolves, who become angry & start growling. Meera freaks out & climbs a tree - she is panicking & telling Jojen to climb the tree as well. Jojen replies by saying "Relax, Sister, This is not the day I die." [Paraphrased from memory]... Jojen has seen his death in his green dreams. Jojen has told Meera how he will die. Jojen knows that he will be killed by a direwolf... -BAM- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Okay, Back on topic:: Does anyone else think that we will see Varamyr again??? Normally Prologue/Epilogue POV are killed off to never be seen again, yet Varamyr (living on inside of One-Eye) was seen to become a member of Summer's Pack. We got such an incredible amount of backstory & psychology on this character, that I find it hard to believe that he will not influence the plot at some future point...We have seen Varamyr after his death.. Summer encounters the wolves beyond the Wall.Varamyr has been dead for some time now already, and the longer he remains in the wolf, the more he becomes a wolf, and stops being human of mind.So whether Varamyr will be capable to influence Bran or Jon..? I don't feel that it is very likely... At least not in the sense that Varamyr the human will be fully aware of what he is doing.Could he influence them as a wolf, due to animal instincts? Possible.. wolves do hunt.. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 We have seen Varamyr after his death.. Summer encounters the wolves beyond the Wall.Varamyr has been dead for some time now already, and the longer he remains in the wolf, the more he becomes a wolf, and stops being human of mind.So whether Varamyr will be capable to influence Bran or Jon..? I don't feel that it is very likely... At least not in the sense that Varamyr the human will be fully aware of what he is doing.Could he influence them as a wolf, due to animal instincts? Possible.. wolves do hunt.. ;) I think the point is also that Varamyr's animal companions will be easier to control than other wild animals. They are like 'worn shoes'. Varamyr took over Orell's eagle for. ex. even though the eagle seemed to have some of Orell left in him...as you said, the human consciousness erodes over time.... without a human body to keep them grounded, I doubt any skinchanger -- even one as strong as Varamyr -- can actually maintain control over an animal, or overpower another consciousness.... For training, Bran uses a raven that once belonged to someone else... Varamyr had three wolves, a snow bear and a shadowcat....I don't remember what happened to them...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 --- GRRM mentioned in an interview about a year (or more) ago that he was currently writing TWoW. Then Martin proposed a seemingly hypothetical scenario to describe the detail at which he writes:: [Paraphrasing] "So you have Jon Snow, alone, hungry, being pursued by enemies through the woods... What will Jon eat? What is the next sentence? What is the next word?" [Again, Paraphrasing tom memory, source unknown]... I propose the following:That was NOT a hypothetical scenario, GRRM was actually describing an event from TWoW... This is how GRRM operates. Everything has a hidden layer or two or three, Nothing is simply 'hypothetical' or straightforward...Jon/Ghost will fall into the sink-hole described above, thus evading the enemies who are pursuing him...Once safe, Jon/Ghost's hunger will become the most important thing to his/their survival...Jon/Ghost will encounter Jojen meandering around all depressed in the cave...Jon/Ghost will kill & eat Jojen...Why do I think this will happen? Because back in ACoKs, Meera & Jojen were in Winterfell's Godswood interacting with the direwolves, who become angry & start growling. Meera freaks out & climbs a tree - she is panicking & telling Jojen to climb the tree as well. Jojen replies by saying "Relax, Sister, This is not the day I die." [Paraphrased from memory]... Jojen has seen his death in his green dreams. Jojen has told Meera how he will die. Jojen knows that he will be killed by a direwolf... -BAM- You're jumping to a really big conclusion without any evidence. Yes, Jojen knows how he will die but he never expresses how that will take place. I mean, the show had him blown up by a COTF hand bomb or something equally stupid. But Jojen has never given any indication that he knows his death is by direwolf. As to Jon eating Jojen....I don't think so. I don't think Jon is going to get that far up north. While he's in Ghost, I think he'll realize (through his connection with Summer) that Bran is held up in the cave with BR and he'll set out to save his brother--much like Jon was going to set out to save Arya from Ramsey. But on his way there he will realize that he's choosing love over duty once more and that it didn't exactly end well the first time. One of Jon's personal arcs and conflicts is the continued struggle of love vs duty. Jon-As-Ghost will realize that he must go back and fulfill his duty as LC/leader of the NW during the War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Varamyr had three wolves, a snow bear and a shadowcat....I don't remember what happened to them...? Shadowcat ran away. Snow bear went mad and killed some people before it was slain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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