Annara Snow Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 We've all heard of Elio Garcia's statement that a Sansa chapter from TWOW that he has read "may be controversial in certain quarters of the fandom", which has meanwhile been quoted, misquoted (such as the Vulture article which claimed it was "sure to be controversial", or comments on this forum that referred to it as the chapter where "Sansa does something that will upset her fans"), analyzed and speculated about to the death, including in the previous thread that's been locked. Elio has meanwhile also made another comment about reading a chapter with Sansa in the Vale and mentioned that "interesting things are happening in the Vale", We've also known for a while, since Elio and Linda were guests in episode 88 of Podcast of Ice and Fire in 2012, that they've read a chapter from TWOW that they think no one else has read, that Elio thinks Sansa fans will enjoy. (One of the hosts, Ashley, is a big Sansa fan.) Around the 26:50 mark: "I think lemoncake fans will have some enjoyment from the chapter we've read". So, we've known that there's one Sansa chapter from TWOW Elio and Linda have read that could be controversial in some quarters of the fandom, and one that Elio thinks Sansa fans will enjoy, but we didn't know if it's the same one. Well, now we know: https://twitter.com/hippoiathanatoi/status/526296172345163776 Fred Millerly @MillerlyMan Oct 26@hippoiathanatoi have u read any of the winds of winter besides the sample chapters that were released?0 replies0 retweets0 favorites Reply Retweet FavoriteMoreUser Actions FollowLinda & Elio@hippoiathanatoi@MillerlyMan A Sansa chapter. I think that's all. They've read just one unreleased chapter from TWOW, a Sansa chapter. The "controversial" chapter is, then, the same one Sansa fans will "have enjoyment from". This certainly puts a different spin on it. So much for the speculation that it's about rape, child murder, terrible things happening to Sansa, or Sansa doing things that would upset her fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbison from Ibben Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 This seems to lend more support to the possibility that the "controversial" part might be the anticipated bed scene with Myranda Royce. Sansa's cover might be blown because she's running short of hair coloring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I posted that tweet on the show thread when I found it before, also other links, but they talk about it here, around 42:00:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_68S55PkAtQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Yea I'm now more certain than ever that this chapter deals with Sansa's developing sexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 Sansa's character and her development is seen in such drastically different ways by different readers, that any Sansa character development is bound to be controversial to at least some fans. It could be about sexuality, or it could be about her becoming more manipulative with people, with her thoughts about LF's plans one way or another... however Sansa develops, I'd be more surprised if it's not controversial at all. ETA: Another thing From this tweet, it sounds to me like Elio and Linda had only read that one Sansa chapter out of then unreleased chapters; there is nothing to suggest that they read "Mercy" before GRRM released it last year. I remember that one of the arguments in the previous thread for this chapter containing something extreme or shocking was that it would have to be more controversial than "Mercy", since Elio said nothing about the latter being controversial in some quarters of the fandom. But nothing suggests Elio had read "Mercy" at the time when he made that comments, so there's no reason to think he expects the Sansa chapter to cause more controversy than "Mercy" did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Thanks for this. It adds some badly needed context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 That was already posted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNDM Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 AFFC, chapter 41, "Alayne": Even Lady Myranda began to yawn and complain of being weary. "We have apartments prepared for all of you," she told Alayne, "but if you like you may share my bed tonight. It's large enough for four.""I should be honored, my lady.""Randa. Count yourself fortunate that I'm so tired. All I want to do is curl up and go to sleep. Usually when ladies share my bed they have to pay a pillow tax and tell me all about the wicked things they've done.""What if they haven't done any wicked things?""Why, then they must confess all the wicked things they want to do. Not you, of course. I can see how virtuous you are just by looking at those rosy cheeks and big blue eyes of yours." She yawned again. "I hope your feet are warm. I do hate bedmaids with cold feet." Ho, and what happen after? Petyr explain to Sansa that she can have a great futur if she marries Harry the Heir. "You are promised to Harrold Hardyng, sweetling, provided you can win his boyish heart . . . which should not be hard, for you.""Harry the Heir?" Alayne tried to recall what Myranda had told her about him on the mountain. "He was just knighted. And he has a bastard daughter by some common girl.""And another on the way by a different wench. Harry can be a beguiling one, no doubt. Soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles. And very gallant, I am told." So. You are Sansa, a 13-year-old blushing maid who lost her family, wants revenge on life and on Lannister. You just learned that you can have that, if you succed in seducing a young knight who already experienced sex with at least two girls, and probably many, many more. What do you do? Who do you turn to, to have some... life counseling? Your mother is dead (undead, actually, but you don't know that). You have no elder sister. Who's left? Mya Stone, peraphs? Or the joyfull and witty Myranda Royce, who offered to share her bed with you, but only if you confess all the wicked things you want to do... Yep. I think lemoncakes fans will have some enjoyment from the next Sansa chapter. And lemon fans, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 When we group together the things which have been said about this chapter, and the things which were being discussed in the latter chapters of feast, and the knowledge Randa wants a pillow tax and has invited Sansa to share her bed, and talk about all the wicked things she wants to do/has done. And that Sansa has already imagined telling another girl how the hound kissed her. I think the possibility that Sansa will tell Randa about the kiss, have a frank chat about sex, and possibly then have a dirty dream and or a wank, are very likely. Sansa's character and her development is seen in such drastically different ways by different readers, that any Sansa character development is bound to be controversial to at least some fans. It could be about sexuality, or it could be about her becoming more manipulative with people, with her thoughts about LF's plans one way or another... however Sansa develops, I'd be more surprised if it's not controversial at all. ETA: Another thing From this tweet, it sounds to me like Elio and Linda had only read that one Sansa chapter out of then unreleased chapters; there is nothing to suggest that they read "Mercy" before GRRM released it last year. I remember that one of the arguments in the previous thread for this chapter containing something extreme or shocking was that it would have to be more controversial than "Mercy", since Elio said nothing about the latter being controversial in some quarters of the fandom. But nothing suggests Elio had read "Mercy" at the time when he made that comments, so there's no reason to think he expects the Sansa chapter to cause more controversy than "Mercy" did. Annara I think you make some really pertinent observations here. Indeed it does seem Elio had not read Mercy pre release, or pre this Sansa chapter so all arguments that it must be "more controversial" than Mercy are null and void. And indeed, Sansa as a character is read in very differing ways by various groups in the fandom, some gloss over her entirely and see her as nothing but a narrator of other peoples stories, some see her as a baddy, some as a virgin on a pedestal, some as an exciting and unusual character who is having a really unique story arc, others as a prize for their favourite male character. ect. Basically at this point all potential developments for her are controversial because the readers are so fractioned over her as a character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Definitely thought it would be sexuality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Never thought it would be Harry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 "You are promised to Harrold Hardyng, sweetling, provided you can win his boyish heart . . . which should not be hard, for you." Argh... I forgot that one line. Just to prove how disgusting human being Petyr Littlepimp is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 So. You are Sansa, a 13-year-old blushing maid who lost her family, wants revenge on life and on Lannister. You just learned that you can have that, if you succed in seducing a young knight who already experienced sex with at least two girls, and probably many, many more. What do you do? Who do you turn to, to have some... life counseling? Your mother is dead (undead, actually, but you don't know that). You have no elder sister. Who's left? Mya Stone, peraphs? Or the joyfull and witty Myranda Royce, who offered to share her bad with you, but only if you confess all the wicked things you want to do... Yep. I think lemoncakes fans will have some enjoyment from the next Sansa chapter. And lemon fans, too. LF wants Sansa to charm Harry into falling for her and wanting to marry her, not to get Harry to have sex with her, which would be completely detrimental to the plan to have him marry her. Harry is a womanizer, if he had sex with her she'd be another conquest and he would treat her the same as the previous ones. "Why buy a cow if you can have the milk for free", to put it in crude sexist terms. Aside from the fact that she needs her virginity to annul her marriage to Tyrion, any sex act, even one that would technically leave her a virgin, or even any extensive knowledge about sex pre-wedlock, would make her a "soiled" bride in Westerosi society eyes. It's already unlikely that HtH would want to marry someone he thinks is a bastard; he definitely wouldn't want a "soiled" bastard bride, especially one he could have anyway. To get Harry to want to marry her, Sansa/Alayne needs to be beautiful, ladylike, charming, appear as an innocent blushing maiden - as LF has said, it should be easy for her; he doesn't think she needs to learn anything, just be herself - and play hard to get. This would both make her a viable bride, and attract Harry. Harry is not Robb Stark, LF doesn't expect him to want to marry Alayne to preserve her "honor", he clearly doesn't care about that one bit, he already got two girls pregnant. The only way to make someone like him want to marry her without knowing she's Sansa Stark, is to make him want her but make sure he knows he's not getting any unless they marry or before the wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeethGrinder Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The Hound stops by the Vale and gives her a VIP Pass en route to Gleganebowl I. Hype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 LF wants Sansa to charm Harry into falling for her and wanting to marry her, not to get Harry to have sex with her, which would be completely detrimental to the plan to have him marry her. Harry is a womanizer, if he had sex with her she'd be another conquest and he would treat her the same as the previous ones. "Why buy a cow if you can have the milk for free", to put it in crude sexist terms. Aside from the fact that she needs her virginity to annul her marriage to Tyrion, any sex act, even one that would technically leave her a virgin, or even any extensive knowledge about sex pre-wedlock, would make her a "soiled" bride in Westerosi society eyes. It's already unlikely that HtH would want to marry someone he thinks is a bastard; he definitely wouldn't want a "soiled" bastard bride, especially one he could have anyway. To get Harry to want to marry her, Sansa/Alayne needs to be beautiful, ladylike, charming, appear as an innocent blushing maiden - as LF has said, it should be easy for her; he doesn't think she needs to learn anything, just be herself - and play hard to get. This would both make her a viable bride, and attract Harry. Harry is not Robb Stark, LF doesn't expect him to want to marry Alayne to preserve her "honor", he clearly doesn't care about that one bit, he already got two girls pregnant. The only way to make someone like him want to marry her without knowing she's Sansa Stark, is to make him want her but make sure he knows he's not getting any unless they marry or before the wedding. Yep. In short, LF is just selling his usual bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 After meeting a handsome blond knight, she's totally playing here. Gallant is the word Littlefinger uses to describe Harry, the word she used before, when he thought he had her pegged. He thinks she's still the Sansa from book 1. Alayne laughed. "Are you louts?" she said, teasing. "Why, I took the three of you for gallant knights." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Not to mention that in the very scene where LF informs Sansa he has pledged her to Harry, she thinks in her own thoughts that she does not want the match. Why would she choose to ask for help in seducing a man whom she does not wish to wed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Yes, she did. She's playing kissing games with Sweetrobin (he indicates this has happened before) and pretending to kiss Sandor. And before the girls were playing kissing games and she thought this, it's a similar thing. What can she say to one up Myranda. She kissed the Hound... and she liked it. :lol: Liked it better than even the idea of having a corned beef sandwich and some lemon cakes? That's saying a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 :bowdown: Genious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think the best way to decide what this chapter will contain is to assess what was happening in the previous chapters and the things which have been said about this chapter, that it will please lemoncakes and that it is of a character development nature. So we can rule out all the previous ideas about murder, rape, and huge plot developments. What was Sansa doing and thinking when we last left her. She was thinking an awful lot about The Hound, and she was playing kissing games, drawing on her bastard brothers character to get her down the mountain, thinking some more about the Hound and his kiss. Being grossed out by LF's advances, thinking she doesn't want to marry Harry, being asked to bed share with horny Randa, who wants to know about the wicked things she has done/wants to do. And we know that previously when there have been kissing games she imagined telling the other girls she had kissed the Hound. GRRM has told us the Un Kiss will crop up on future books plural, and Elio & Linda said the character development surprised them but that looking back it shouldn't have. which hints that it is set up in the text already. I really think that Sansa will tell Randa about kissing The Hound and discuss men, desire, sex. And Sansa character development will include her feelings for him and her own sexuality, which is linked strongly to Sandor. She has already dreamt of him in her bed, but awoke before anything happened and also being inexperienced she doesn't really have much knowledge of what would happen, Randa won't spare the details though and Sansa will have plenty of material to be going on for her sexual fantasy/dream/wank all three maybe? But yes I think it will be Sansa developing her sexuality. Which will be controversial to some, but which has had the foundations lain already in the text, if you have been open to seeing them. And it would please some sansa fans for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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