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Annara Snow

[TWoW Spoilers] Alayne I

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I like to base theories on things that make sense within the context of the text. Not just it is possible. Randa is asking her to come share her bed so that they can gossip about sexuality. Of course it might be a fiendish plan to get her to have sex with her, this is always possible, most things people suggest are possible. But I'm interested in what is probable.

Now that's a revolutionary notion! That has like changed my whole view on how to understand ASOIAF. And here I was thinking I could only understand the story by coming up with theories from the Ashford Tourney.

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I like to base theories on things that make sense within the context of the text. Not just it is possible. Randa is asking her to come share her bed so that they can gossip about sexuality. Of course it might be a fiendish plan to get her to have sex with her, this is always possible, most things people suggest are possible. But I'm interested in what is probable.

Yep, she says so. Tell her the wicked things she wants to do. In a chapter where Sansa has been thinking of kissing the Hound twice... and placing him in her bed... and lots more... after lots more before that...

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Yep, she says so. Tell her the wicked things she wants to do. In a chapter where Sansa has been thinking of kissing the Hound twice... and placing him in her bed... and lots more... after lots more before that...

Would you be shocked by Sansa revealing that she wants to have sex with the hound? Its meant to be a controversial character development. I don't think Sansa having or wanting to have sex with a man is controversial. It depends on the man I guess, Littlefinger would be more shocking and controversial.

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Now that's a revolutionary notion! That has like changed my whole view on how to understand ASOIAF. And here I was thinking I could only understand the story by coming up with theories from the Ashford Tourney.

You are in rare form today. :lol:

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Or it shouldn't have shocked them so much because 'Why couldn't she be bisexual?' People with a set view of the character wouldn't expect that in the slightest.

People think this:

Even Lady Myranda began to yawn and complain of being weary. "We have apartments prepared for all of you," she told Alayne, "but if you like you may share my bed tonight. It's large enough for four."

"I should be honored, my lady."

"Randa. Count yourself fortunate that I'm so tired. All I want to do is curl up and go to sleep. Usually when ladies share my bed they have to pay a pillow tax and tell me all about the wicked things they've done."

"What if they haven't done any wicked things?"

"Why, then they must confess all the wicked things they want to do. Not you, of course. I can see how virtuous you are just by looking at those rosy cheeks and big blue eyes of yours." She yawned again. "I hope your feet are warm. I do hate bedmaids with cold feet."

Quoted in page 1. Reflects Sansa being taught by Myranda to lure Harry. But it could equally be her being flirty. Didn't her husband die on his wedding night? Its possible that Myranda and 'Alayne' have a liason and Sansa likes it.

Sansa likes dudes, (Her crush on Joffrey was prepubescent, but her fantasies about making out with Loras and especially her sexualized fantasies/fake memories of Sandor sure aren't.) but if she is bisexual and were to be interested in a woman, too, it would clearly be Mya, not Myranda. ;)

She has some kind of fixation with him. I don't think its love, at least not yet.

Well, it sure ain't platonic.

Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He’d come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish that you were Lady,” she said.

Considering the fact that, if you recall the wedding night, Tyrion was fully naked and, err… excited, this dream scene may have been a bit N-17! ;)

As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

"You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?” She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he’d kissed her, and gave a nod.

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Would you be shocked by Sansa revealing that she wants to have sex with the hound? Its meant to be a controversial character development. I don't think Sansa having or wanting to have sex with a man is controversial. It depends on the man I guess, Littlefinger would be more shocking and controversial.

It's not supposed to be particularly shocking or controversial, only to some people, and they've also said it's supposed to be something already set up in the text, which rules out wanting to have sex with LF.

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Well we don't know for sure where its going to go so right now everything is 'possible' but we do have set up for it. 'Usually when ladies share my bed...' how often do ladies grace Myranda's bed? She's not 10!

Better than corned beef sandwiches, corned beef hash is still debatable! :box: These boxing gloves are getting a work out tonight!

We see that women frequently share a bed even into adulthood. Cersei has bed warmers, and the time she has sex with one is not the only time she has another woman in her bed, the Tyrell girls clearly all bed share. and some do play kissing games. Yes Bedsharing amongst single women was very common and is in the story very common, and sometimes sexual experimentation happens, no doubt. But what is there in the text that says Sansa would be receptive towards sexual advances from another woman? V's what is there in the text to imply she would allow herself sexual fantasies about The Hound. The fact Randa tells us what she usually does in bed with her ladies makes her intent on inviting Sansa to do so clear. She wants to ask her about hersexual experiences/fantasies. and we know Sansa has a sexual fantasy which she thinks about frequently and has convinced herself happened. We know she has considered telling others about it previously and that GRRM said she would be thinking about it in subsequent bookS.

Now that's a revolutionary notion! That has like changed my whole view on how to understand ASOIAF. And here I was thinking I could only understand the story by coming up with theories from the Ashford Tourney.

I know, I know. It's a novel concept.

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Sansa doesn't even know the Hound. That is my biggest problem. I get that she is sexualising him hence I never once said the reveal could be that Sansa is a lesbian. But it could be a similar thing as she did with Joffrey. She projected what she wanted onto him until it was too late and she had isolated herself in his clutches. Sandor is something of a safe fantasy as he is not there. He can't reveal his true nature, he cannot say things like 'I should have raped her' to her face like we saw him say to Arya.


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?...........And he loves her. He risked his life for her and sobbed about her with his dying breath, never once thinking about himself, just her.......

Not many posters deny that Sandor may feel something like love, caring, infatuation, sexual attraction or all of it for Sansa. His despair here, knowing that he might be a nightmare to her is of a dark fascination.

But if you believe this will turn out to be a classic love story then you have a low opinion of Martin's ability to make his books compelling literature.

No, i guess he will turn Sansa's and Sandor's future common parts in the story - if there will be any - upside down and it is not clear here who will be the beast and who might be the beauty.

But I think I should leave this thread to your homemade SanSan lemoncake and stay away from this thread, why should I try to convince you of anything? Why should I care what you dream of, enjoy! Martin will have fun with all fan predictions and proceed to writing whatever he wants - after he had a good laugh.

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You are in rare form today. :lol:

Sorry, for being a little bit of a dork today, but I can't help it as I got a red tunic on. And besides, you all are doing such a fine job splainin things, I have nothing to add, other than to make off the cuff comments.

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Sansa doesn't even know the Hound. That is my biggest problem. I get that she is sexualising him hence I never once said the reveal could be that Sansa is a lesbian. But it could be a similar thing as she did with Joffrey. She projected what she wanted onto him until it was too late and she had isolated herself in his clutches. Sandor is something of a safe fantasy as he is not there. He can't reveal his true nature, he cannot say things like 'I should have raped her' to her face like we saw him say to Arya.

He didn't say "I should have raped her." That's a misquote.

You may need to re-read the Sansa/Sandor scenes if you think he was too nice or "he can't reveal his true nature" to her or that she doesn't know him or idealizes him. Since their first conversations in AGOT, he was harsh, unpleasant, mocking, vulnerable, violently unstable, and threatened to kill her twice, including in their second ever conversation, and she's been pretty good at reading him on some occasions, certainly much better than Arya. And the only memory she's changed in her mind was adding the kiss - she still remembers him threatening to kill her, being drunk and terrified of the fire, making her sing etc. She remembers his words about liars and likes that he was harsh and honest.

Here's one example of what their conversations were like:

She grabbed a merlon for support, her fingers scrabbling at the rough stone. “Let go of me,” she cried. “Let go.”

“The little bird thinks she has wings, does she? Or do you mean to end up crippled like that brother of yours?”

Sansa twisted in his grasp. “I wasn’t going to fall. It was only... you startled me, that’s all.”

“You mean I scared you. And still do.”

She took a deep breath to calm herself. “I thought I was alone, I..." She glanced away.

“The little bird still can’t bear to look at me, can she?” The Hound released her. “You were glad enough to see my face when the mob had you, though. Remember?”

Sansa remembered all too well. She remembered the way they had howled, the feel of the blood running down her cheek from where the stone had struck her, and the garlic stink on the breath of the man who had tried to pull her from her horse. She could still feel the cruel pinch of fingers on her wrist as she lost her balance and began to fall.

She’d thought she was going to die then, but the fingers had twitched, all five at once, and the man had shrieked loud as a horse. When his hand fell away, another hand, stronger, shoved her back into her saddle. The man with the garlicky breath was on the ground, blood pumping out the stump of his arm, but there were others all around, some with clubs in hand. The Hound leapt at them, his sword a blur of steel that trailed a red mist as it swung. When they broke and ran before him he had laughed, his terrible burned face for a moment transformed.

She made herself look at that face now, really look. It was only courteous, and a lady must never forget her courtesies. The scars are not the worst part, nor even the way his mouth twitches. It’s his eyes. She had never seen eyes so full of anger. “I... I should have come to you after,” she said haltingly. “To thank you, for... for saving me... you were so brave.”

“Brave?” His laugh was half a snarl. “A dog doesn’t need courage to chase off rats. They had me thirty to one, and not a man of them dared face me.”

She hated the way he talked, always so harsh and angry. “Does it give you joy to scare people?”

“No, it gives me joy to kill people.” His mouth twitched. “Wrinkle up your face all you like, but spare me this false piety. You were a high lord’s get. Don’t tell me Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell never killed a man.”

“That was his duty. He never liked it.”

“Is that what he told you?” Clegane laughed again. “Your father lied. Killing is the sweetest thing there is.” He drew his longsword. “Here’s your truth. Your precious father found that out on Baelor’s steps. Lord of Winterfell, Hand of the King, Warden of the North, the mighty Eddard Stark, of a line eight thousand years old... but Ilyn Payne’s blade went through his neck all the same, didn’t it? Do you remember the dance he did when his head came off his shoulders?”

Sansa hugged herself, suddenly cold. “Why are you always so hateful? I was thanking you...”

“Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it’s all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing.” He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. “I killed my first man at twelve. I’ve lost count of how many I’ve killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too-they’re all meat, and I’m the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers.” Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. “So long as I have this,” he said, lifting the sword from her throat, “there’s no man on earth I need fear.”

Except your brother, Sansa thought, but she had better sense than to say it aloud. He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters. “Not even the men across the river?”

Clegane’s eyes turned toward the distant fires. “All this burning.” He sheathed his sword. “Only cowards fight with fire.”

“Lord Stannis is no coward.-

“He’s not the man his brother was either. Robert never let a little thing like a river stop him.”

“What will you do when he crosses?”

“Fight. Kill. Die, maybe.”

“Aren’t you afraid? The gods might send you down to some terrible hell for all the evil you’ve done.”

“What evil?” He laughed. “What gods?”

“The gods who made us all.”

“All?” he mocked. “Tell me, little bird, what kind of god makes a monster like the Imp, or a halfwit like Lady Tanda’s daughter? If there are gods, they made sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with.”

“True knights protect the weak.”

He snorted. “There are no true knights, no more than there are gods. If you can’t protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don’t ever believe any different.”

Sansa backed away from him. “You’re awful.”

“I’m honest. It’s the world that’s awful. Now fly away, little bird, I’m sick of you peeping at me.”

Wordless, she fled. She was afraid of Sandor Clegane... and yet, some part of her wished that Ser Dontos had a little of the Hound’s ferocity. There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can’t be lies.

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Sansa doesn't even know the Hound. That is my biggest problem. I get that she is sexualising him hence I never once said the reveal could be that Sansa is a lesbian. But it could be a similar thing as she did with Joffrey. She projected what she wanted onto him until it was too late and she had isolated herself in his clutches. Sandor is something of a safe fantasy as he is not there. He can't reveal his true nature, he cannot say things like 'I should have raped her' to her face like we saw him say to Arya.

So basically you don't approve of her choice? Is that what you mean? I don't think our approval of the person sansa herself finds attractive is required for the author to write that she is attracted to him? In which case I think that in order to guess what may be coming up in her story arc it is more important to pay attention to the text than to our personal feelings about characters.

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We see that women frequently share a bed even into adulthood. Cersei has bed warmers, and the time she has sex with one is not the only time she has another woman in her bed, the Tyrell girls clearly all bed share. and some do play kissing games. Yes Bedsharing amongst single women was very common and is in the story very common, and sometimes sexual experimentation happens, no doubt. But what is there in the text that says Sansa would be receptive towards sexual advances from another woman? V's what is there in the text to imply she would allow herself sexual fantasies about The Hound. The fact Randa tells us what she usually does in bed with her ladies makes her intent on inviting Sansa to do so clear. She wants to ask her about hersexual experiences/fantasies. and we know Sansa has a sexual fantasy which she thinks about frequently and has convinced herself happened. We know she has considered telling others about it previously and that GRRM said she would be thinking about it in subsequent bookS.

I know, I know. It's a novel concept.

'Come into my bed. Tell me all your wildest sexual fantasies.' I guess thinking that is a pick up line is too far! :devil:

All the Tyrell girls are maids though. Myranda was married. Its the difference between Sansa and Jeyne Poole sharing a bed and Catelyn and Barbrey!

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But we know that widows do still bedshare Cersei does and she doesn't start doing so in order to get her hands on the Myrish swamp. That just happens as a result. And Taena is not the first woman she has had to warm her bed either by the sounds of it, she talks of it as though it is a common thing. Both in childhood and now she is widowed.



I do think Randa who though she is a widow is still a young woman, really wants to talk sex with her bed warmers, she makes that clear. She may be into a bit of fooling around too, but what in the text tells you Sansa would be up for that?


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He didn't say "I should have raped her." That's a misquote.

You may need to re-read the Sansa/Sandor scenes if you think he was too nice or "he can't reveal his true nature" to her or that she doesn't know him or idealizes him. Since their first conversations in AGOT, he was harsh, unpleasant, mocking, vulnerable, violently unstable, and threatened to kill her twice, including in their second ever conversation, and she's been pretty good at reading him on some occasions, certainly much better than Arya. And the only memory she's changed in her mind was adding the kiss - she still remembers him threatening to kill her, being drunk and terrified of the fire, making her sing etc. She remembers his words about liars and likes that he was harsh and honest.

Here's one example of what their conversations were like:

She grabbed a merlon for support, her fingers scrabbling at the rough stone. “Let go of me,” she cried. “Let go.”

“The little bird thinks she has wings, does she? Or do you mean to end up crippled like that brother of yours?”

Sansa twisted in his grasp. “I wasn’t going to fall. It was only... you startled me, that’s all.”

“You mean I scared you. And still do.”

She took a deep breath to calm herself. “I thought I was alone, I..." She glanced away.

“The little bird still can’t bear to look at me, can she?” The Hound released her. “You were glad enough to see my face when the mob had you, though. Remember?”

Sansa remembered all too well. She remembered the way they had howled, the feel of the blood running down her cheek from where the stone had struck her, and the garlic stink on the breath of the man who had tried to pull her from her horse. She could still feel the cruel pinch of fingers on her wrist as she lost her balance and began to fall.

She’d thought she was going to die then, but the fingers had twitched, all five at once, and the man had shrieked loud as a horse. When his hand fell away, another hand, stronger, shoved her back into her saddle. The man with the garlicky breath was on the ground, blood pumping out the stump of his arm, but there were others all around, some with clubs in hand. The Hound leapt at them, his sword a blur of steel that trailed a red mist as it swung. When they broke and ran before him he had laughed, his terrible burned face for a moment transformed.

She made herself look at that face now, really look. It was only courteous, and a lady must never forget her courtesies. The scars are not the worst part, nor even the way his mouth twitches. It’s his eyes. She had never seen eyes so full of anger. “I... I should have come to you after,” she said haltingly. “To thank you, for... for saving me... you were so brave.”

“Brave?” His laugh was half a snarl. “A dog doesn’t need courage to chase off rats. They had me thirty to one, and not a man of them dared face me.”

She hated the way he talked, always so harsh and angry. “Does it give you joy to scare people?”

“No, it gives me joy to kill people.” His mouth twitched. “Wrinkle up your face all you like, but spare me this false piety. You were a high lord’s get. Don’t tell me Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell never killed a man.”

“That was his duty. He never liked it.”

“Is that what he told you?” Clegane laughed again. “Your father lied. Killing is the sweetest thing there is.” He drew his longsword. “Here’s your truth. Your precious father found that out on Baelor’s steps. Lord of Winterfell, Hand of the King, Warden of the North, the mighty Eddard Stark, of a line eight thousand years old... but Ilyn Payne’s blade went through his neck all the same, didn’t it? Do you remember the dance he did when his head came off his shoulders?”

Sansa hugged herself, suddenly cold. “Why are you always so hateful? I was thanking you...”

“Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it’s all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate? Knights are for killing.” He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. “I killed my first man at twelve. I’ve lost count of how many I’ve killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too-they’re all meat, and I’m the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers.” Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. “So long as I have this,” he said, lifting the sword from her throat, “there’s no man on earth I need fear.”

Except your brother, Sansa thought, but she had better sense than to say it aloud. He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters. “Not even the men across the river?”

Clegane’s eyes turned toward the distant fires. “All this burning.” He sheathed his sword. “Only cowards fight with fire.”

“Lord Stannis is no coward.-

“He’s not the man his brother was either. Robert never let a little thing like a river stop him.”

“What will you do when he crosses?”

“Fight. Kill. Die, maybe.”

“Aren’t you afraid? The gods might send you down to some terrible hell for all the evil you’ve done.”

“What evil?” He laughed. “What gods?”

“The gods who made us all.”

“All?” he mocked. “Tell me, little bird, what kind of god makes a monster like the Imp, or a halfwit like Lady Tanda’s daughter? If there are gods, they made sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with.”

“True knights protect the weak.”

He snorted. “There are no true knights, no more than there are gods. If you can’t protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don’t ever believe any different.”

Sansa backed away from him. “You’re awful.”

“I’m honest. It’s the world that’s awful. Now fly away, little bird, I’m sick of you peeping at me.”

Wordless, she fled. She was afraid of Sandor Clegane... and yet, some part of her wished that Ser Dontos had a little of the Hound’s ferocity. There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can’t be lies.

You care about this very much and I respect that. I do paraphrase a lot, I don't have a searchable text for the exact quotes. I never said that she projected niceness on him, she's using him as a proxy for her burgeoning sexuality. Quite what it says about her taste! Girl needs better men, or women if she is indeed inclined. Previously with Joffrey she was projecting her desires for the storybook romance where he kisses her hand and she gives him tourney hankerchiefs. It was sexless. She is older now, her needs have changed.

So basically you don't approve of her choice? Is that what you mean? I don't think our approval of the person sansa herself finds attractive is required for the author to write that she is attracted to him? In which case I think that in order to guess what may be coming up in her story arc it is more important to pay attention to the text than to our personal feelings about characters.

No, I'm saying that Sansa having sexy dreams about the Hound has no bearing on love. My sexy dreams about Henry Cavill are much the same. :drool: ;)

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But it's not about your dreams, it's about Sansa's dreams. It's about Sansa's story and that's what's all over the pages, that's what she's telling you.

Sorry, for being a little bit of a dork today, but I can't help it as I got a red tunic on. And besides, you all are doing such a fine job splainin things, I have nothing to add, other than to make off the cuff comments.

No, your comments are very much on point. These things matter a lot. She reached out to him wearing that tunic. That was big, that came from her.

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No, I'm saying that Sansa having sexy dreams about the Hound has no bearing on love. My sexy dreams about Henry Cavill are much the same. :drool: ;)

Sansa is sexually attracted to him, this is made clear in the text, I also think she is falling in love with him, because again this is in the text. She misses him, yearns for him, thinks he is there , wishes he were there. Thinks not only about how sexy she thinks he is but also of the kindness he showed her, the protection he gave, the wisdom he imparted, the way he wanted to take her away. She also acknowledges the things he did and said which were not so romantic. But she understands him, and she thinks he would not hurt her. Her also sexually fantasising about him is what makes friendship into love. love can exist without sex, sex can exist without love but what we have here is care, desire, trust, and intimacy, that adds up to love.

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I do think Randa who though she is a widow is still a young woman, really wants to talk sex with her bed warmers, she makes that clear. She may be into a bit of fooling around too, but what in the text tells you Sansa would be up for that?

Well, even if she were, Randa might get a little creeped out after Sansa says, "You know, something is not quite right here. I know, here do this: drink that flagon of wine over there, pour a little of it on your clothes, and talk with a really harsh voice, like steel on stone or something, and well, um, um, would you mind doing it in a white cloak?"

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