[TWoW Spoilers] Alayne I

[James Arryn]

Could kidnapping sansa after a certain wedding be LF plan to get the army of the vale on the move? An army on the run needs food too..

I too felt it was different writing than asoif, less description like the food most of all and clothing, its a feast and not much of it. Felt like Dunk and Egg a little bit.

Is it not only a small part of the chapter? maybe the big controversy is in that chapter, but not in the part we got? Maybe what we got was a resume or something edited.

Sansa's story is a tragedy, which means when things go better, its just to put you deeper in mysery.. that + not in the big 5 , I think we can start to worry for sansa..

My sense of how GRRM writes is a skeleton of plot that he gradually fleshes out with character, dialogue and setting. Nothing remrkble about that, just that I think some of the things you find missng will likely be there when it goes to print.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Lol

A mix of Ramsay the Heir and Alayne Poole-Manderly-Dustin perhaps?

FrankenSansa

[Darkbringer]

I could see him learning from the Tyrells and 'spending' the currency politically rather than financially, but it certainly won't be altruistic.

Not sure if I agree. I mean, sure, its LF, but conserving the food makes alot of sense from any angle at this stage, I would argue. The Vale is very isolated, others on this thread have pointed out how little the outside world is mentioned, only LF probably realizes the state that places like the Riverlands and Westerlands are in. Probably some of the food will get sold for a high price later, but I wager most of it will be used to leverage the might of the Vale when they finally enter the war.

[James Arryn]

Not sure if I agree. I mean, sure, its LF, but conserving the food makes alot of sense from any angle at this stage, I would argue. The Vale is very isolated, others on this thread have pointed out how little the outside world is mentioned, only LF probably realizes the state that places like the Riverlands and Westerlands are in. Probably some of the food will get sold for a high price later, but I wager most of it will be used to leverage the might of the Vale when they finally enter the war.

The one weapon he's always lacked is political weight/popularity. I think it very possible he observed first hand how the Tyrells...whom he seemed to respect...worked and might take a page from their book. If he becomes the benefactor to a hungry Vale, I think that's an important step to sustainable agency as an independent player. I don't think he necessarily wants that for itself, but it does open up his options and I see him as a play the ball where it lies rather than long game player, and options are lifeblood to those kind of players.

[redrubies]

Because she will most likely betray Sansa.

B. I. N. G. O

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Also the Gulltown reference is interesting, there's a song about stealing a sweet kiss from a maid in Gulltown.

Dunk sings it as he's digging a grave on a slope, and Tom Sevenstrings sings it just before Sandor reappears in the narrative in book 3. And then he's digging a grave on a slope...

And GRRM said the kiss would come up in future volumes, and there has only been one since then...

I also meant to say I agree, Mad Mouse has her number. :)

Nice point on the song, always worth keeping an eye on them. It's early days on the analysis of this chapter, hopefully there's more to be found. :)

[Darkbringer]

The one weapon he's always lacked is political weight/popularity. I think it very possible he observed first hand how the Tyrells...whom he seemed to respect...worked and might take a page from their book. If he becomes the benefactor to a hungry Vale, I think that's an important step to sustainable agency as an independent player. I don't think he necessarily wants that for itself, but it does open up his options and I see him as a play the ball where it lies rather than long game player, and options are lifeblood to those kind of players.

Yeah I can pretty much agree with that, also this wont have been the first time that LF capitalises on the financial illiteracy of the Vale lords. The popularity thing may come into it, even if it just comes down to helping the lords get better prices down the road. He better massage Yohn through this properly, though. While I agree that LF flies by the seat of his pants most times, I have a feeling we may be about to see his grand gambit be played by the end of WoW

[redrubies]

So Harry's lover Saffron's father is the richest man in Gulltown. 'A fortune in spices' means he has been trading with Braavos. And his daughter is more precious to him than gold. So what will he do to make her happy? Employ a faceless assassin to kill her rival in love, Alayne Stone.

Woah. Hadn't thought about that...i didn't think Harry was going to add so mich SPICE to Sansa's life

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

And chalk up yet another point for Lemon Trees belonging in Dorne.

[redrubies]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'd trust Myranda as far as I could throw her. LF warned Sansa about her. The girl is ruthless, I'm calling it now, and I think she's totally capable of throwing Sansa under the bus if it meant a chance with Harry

I called it earlier by saying she was going to tumble in/seduce amd sleep with the very fertile Harry...Randa seems to be quite the Randy lass. Can we just call her Randy and not Randa?

[redrubies]

Agreed.

It's sad some people just see a random douchebag although Martin is so talented in builing up characters.

Did you read the description Harry gave to his first baby's mama after she had his baby? Maybe he's not a *random* douchebag...just a *regular* douchenozzle

[Ghosts Lunch]

My sense of how GRRM writes is a skeleton of plot that he gradually fleshes out with character, dialogue and setting. Nothing remrkble about that, just that I think some of the things you find missng will likely be there when it goes to print.

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if it is fleshed out further in terms of those details, I'd imagine that he has to write each character POV a few chapters by themselves as he's said he finds it tricky to simply switch from one to the other, then later on once he has written a few other POV's, he has to then start to meld them so the highly intricate cross-details make sense and match up and the disparate parts weave together

Certainly needs editing, saw a shutter in there instead of shudder

Find the Gulltown song people are referencing interesting too

[Voice]

A few random thoughts...

• It seems as if we're being presented with an ultimatum: Tyrion can live or Sansa can be happy.
  
• Sansa has been manipulated by many people over the past two years. I looks like she's learned a lesson or two from the experience.
  
• The Vale might be the only place prepared for Winter. All seems happy. That's never good in this world. The tourney was called to create an 8-member Lordsguard. And we know fAegon's landed just to the south.
  
• Bit of fodder for tymbq crowd.
  
• The tapestries remind me of buying wheat when it was plentiful and selling bread when it was scared. LF is now breeding favors and alliances along with his dragons.
  
• "Horns sounded from atop the wall"
  
• Sansa seems to be in her house with a red door
  
• The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more. Why not Braavos? LOL
  
• Cinderella's Ball
  
• For not knowing how to flirt, she sure does it well. The seduction of Harry the Heir reminded me of Cersei's mastery of men. She's not a water dancer or a faceless man, but she's had some masterful instructors of her own.
  

[Darkbringer]

Also so many references to wings, the Winged Knight, and flying. Must be pointing to something. Maybe someone 'flying' with Sansa the way Theon and fArya flew? And the winged knight was friends with COTF and mermen, and fought the Griffin King. Forshadowing a Vale/Stannis/Northern Alliance vs fAegon and co.?

[Ghosts Lunch]

There has been some great chat on this thread about the numerous bits of new info we have, I have enjoyed the read.

However, reading Ran's explanation that the controversy was regarding Alayne's new sexuality, plus w/o a certain character involved, I have been surprised there are not more posts relating to Sandor. It has been noted that there is no sign of hound/dog references in this chapter, and that is certainly a departure from previous books.

To add to that, I found this interesting, regarding a previous Sansa dog/Hound reference.......

'' I will dream a sweet dream, and when I wake there will be dogs barking, women gossiping beside the well, swords ringing in the yard.''

Compared with......

'' Outside the window she could hear the laughter of the washerwomen at the well, the din of steel on steel from the ward where the knights were at their drills. Good sounds.''

So not only is there no mention of Sandor/hounds/dogs, this seems to me another point of note. Sansa's sweet dream has been realised without the dog references.

I gotta say, I was a little disappointed with this. It was one of the things I was looking out for having missed it on first read, and have since posted with some people that helped me gain a greater understanding of that storyline. Oh well, I still enjoyed the chapter immensely ! :)

Not sure it has been mentioned anywhere in the last 38 pages, but is it not odd that a tournament is being organized in the Vale, where Sansa is to be the center of attention, at a time when no less than three of the top warriors in Westeros are missing in action (Sandor, Brienne and Jaime) all of whom have some connection to Sansa.

Yeah it's worth considering some people shouldn't get too attached to some kind of Sansa/Sandor romance, Sandor replaced Lady ("get her a dog instead"), there was a relationship where Sandor was there to help Sansa in her downward trajectory and difficult times and in return Sansa has had a healing effect on the Hound, turning him from the Hound, into Sandor and then the Gravedigger who has released all his anger and is silent, if he does come back into her life it is a form of relationship, eg as the Gravedigger and not the Hound, and she as Alayne from Gulltown perhaps and not tortured Sansa Stark

Aside from that, this is an strong AGoT vibe, along with inverse character developments in this chapter leads me to further consider the "get her a dog" moment, that was at Castle Darry? I think, the one where they had taken down the Targaryen tapestries during Roberts visit, now though we have different tapestries of Roberts that have been hung up around this Castle and all the visitors from different Houses really reminds me of the Starks/Lannisters/Baratheons and different factions at that Castle way back in AGoT on the way to KL

I reckon there's some important symbolism in the "winged" tourney references, plus "you're hair will shine nicely by the fire" most of all (Black hair + Fire = Blackfyre reference?) which is intriguing from the perspective that a possible Varys plant is about

I've always thought Sansa ends up at Harrenhall, so wings + black + Hearth could just as easily be applicable to Harrenhall and Bats and the Fire relevant to whatever it was Rhaegar was up to there although this is quite weak?

But if the "get her a dog" has been neutralised, as Alayne her warg sensibilities may be adjusting to winged animals? in terms of Harrenhall wings + black obviously implies Bats? Thinking aloud at this stage

I really hoped Harry's coat of arms would be described for clues but it was only vaguely about diamonds and red and black

I'm struggling to see what any controversy may have been, sure she is slowly sexualising but that in itself shouldn't be so controversial to different sections of the ASOIF fandom, I figured it would discount some character development fan theories?

[Good Guy Garlan]

Also so many references to wings, the Winged Knight, and flying. Must be pointing to something. Maybe someone 'flying' with Sansa the way Theon and fArya flew? And the winged knight was friends with COTF and mermen, and fought the Griffin King. Forshadowing a Vale/Stannis/Northern Alliance vs fAegon and co.?

There's an interesting thread related to that:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110107-will-harry-the-heir-kill-jon-connington-crackpot/

Basically, we have the parallelism (if we can call it that) of Artys Arryn slaying the Griffin King, and more recently, in the Battle of the Bells, Jon Connington (Griff) slaying Denys Arryn, who was considered handsome, gallant, and heir to the Vale (ring any bells? Pun intended), so a fight could go either way, but I think there's a fair chance Harry and JonCon will meet

[Nuncle Kraken]

I'm very suspicious of the Mad Mouse. I think he's Howland Reed.

[Le Cygne]

About the warging thing, he's the one who called her little bird and made a half dozen or so references about her flying, so I don't think dogs are all there is to it...

"And what’s Joff's little bird doing flying down the serpentine in the black of night?"... "The little bird thinks she has wings, does she?"... "Now fly away, little bird."... "The little bird flew away, did she?"...

This continued after he left, too, the sequence with the hound at the Fingers, then she thinks, "Would that I had wings as well" and then misses "hounds to bark and growl", and more...

[Ghosts Lunch]

Yes, exactly! It really felt like, 'uh, everyone is dealing with zombies/battles/counterrevolutions/fanatic cults, and here we are doing Pride and Prejudice'.

And I say this as a P&P lover.

So, let me be the first to say it: It's Pride and Prejudice... with zombies.

Isn't that kind of the point though with "Sansa"

There has always been serious political machinations around her and she was acting like someone entranced with romanticised ideals?

Of course we see a change throughout this chapter

Reminds me a bit of Cersei, eg there are so many serious issues occurring, but she is so busy trying to be a female Tywin Lannister and be smart that she ignores what is important and screws things up

[Ghosts Lunch]

I'm very suspicious of the Mad Mouse. I think he's Howland Reed.

ROFL

My money is on him secretly being Daario....

There's an interesting thread related to that:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110107-will-harry-the-heir-kill-jon-connington-crackpot/

Basically, we have the parallelism (if we can call it that) of Artys Arryn slaying the Griffin King, and more recently, in the Battle of the Bells, Jon Connington (Griff) slaying Denys Arryn, who was considered handsome, gallant, and heir to the Vale (ring any bells? Pun intended), so a fight could go either way, but I think there's a fair chance Harry and JonCon will meet

Thanks

Great food for thought,