[TWoW Spoilers] Alayne I

[rozemarijn]

The pacing does cause concern for a 7 book wrap up.

Or for her to do anything in the Vale. The tourney is another chapter, possibly like this and then what? She is still a huge fan of Littlefinger and Robert is doing fine. She is trying very hard for him and so does Littlefinger (the purpose of the eight knights is to strength his confidence).

What may happen is her big Sansa Stark declaration at the tourney, as we saw in the show last season. That would get her and an army out of the Vale for sure. But I do not see this chapter leading to it. She has been slowed (only a few chapters in the last book) to get up pace with the rest, maybe she is still running ahead and George needs more time. Question is, for what? My guess: Rickon. She will move when he lives with or without Littlefinger.

[Darkbringer]

There's an interesting thread related to that:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110107-will-harry-the-heir-kill-jon-connington-crackpot/

Basically, we have the parallelism (if we can call it that) of Artys Arryn slaying the Griffin King, and more recently, in the Battle of the Bells, Jon Connington (Griff) slaying Denys Arryn, who was considered handsome, gallant, and heir to the Vale (ring any bells? Pun intended), so a fight could go either way, but I think there's a fair chance Harry and JonCon will meet

Yeah thats pretty much what I was thinking, but where Dany fits into this is hard to guage. And Jon, for that matter. I would like to see a Northern alliance of Rickon and Shireen allying with Sansa/Harry to take down Dorne/GC. This seems the neatest and most forshadowed so far, but doesnt account for Dany or the Tyrells. I am happy to assume Lannister irrevalence after Cercei implodes. So many juicy possibilities!

[TheReal_Rebel]

moved

[Ser Harly of Southwell]

I'm very suspicious of the Mad Mouse. I think he's Howland Reed.

LOL

Ooooookay..... moving on...

[Ser Harly of Southwell]

On another note, what was up with the room with the papers on the floor? Could that be foreshadowing something? Perhaps Sansa re-arranging LF's plans after they fall apart?

Also, the aspect of Sansa searching for LF throughout the chapter? Does that hold any symbolic/foreshadowing significance?

[TheReal_Rebel]

No news of outside events, but good references to the onset of winter and the fact that the Vale has loads of food. But I expect this to come crashing down on LF, just like everything else!

LF may not be torn apart by Dragons but he might be ripped to shreds by the people of the Vale if his hoarding is found out.

I love how GRRM has captured the voice of an older yet still a young Teen Sansa. Who still remembers who she is but still has to hide.

I assumed that Robert Arryn would already be dead when the next Sansa chapter was seen. Pleasantly surprised. Sansa seems more patient and practiced with him.

And having them at the Gates of the Moon with Myranda adds so much more life and light into Sansa's chapter.

Sansa saw Lyn Corbray nearly kill a man, I wonder if this prefigured Harry's untimely demise and dashing of LF's plans.

[Fitzochris01]

Is there not a thread already dedicated to this?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What do you mean? They exhausted the entire Vale's lemon supplies. It's only a matter of time before the people rise up demanding more lemons.

What to do without lemon trees.....?

[dogprivilege]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'd trust Myranda as far as I could throw her. LF warned Sansa about her. The girl is ruthless, I'm calling it now, and I think she's totally capable of throwing Sansa under the bus if it meant a chance with Harry

Completely agreed, except for the very last part. I think, while she may have some genuine desire to get with Harry, that wouldn't be her main reason for betraying Sansa. That just seems far too simple and uninteresting; there are a number of reasons why using and/or betraying Sansa could work in her interest.

[Fitzochris01]

Who unpinned this thread?

[Kingmonkey]

Ooooookay..... moving on...

But did you notice the coat of arms? Background of blue for rivers and brown for land = swamp. He's running around Westeros, small and unnoticed, and that's what mice do. Remember Arya the mouse at Harrenhal? But this is no ordinary mouse, it's a mouse that is white with bright red eyes. Just like a weirwood, which we all know was the symbol on the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. What better coat of arms for Howland Reed to be sneaking around unregarded? IT ALL FITS! AAAAAAAGHHH!

< Runs off into the distance, waving arms madly and screaming. "IT ALL FITS! IT ALL FITS! IT ALL FITS! IT ALL FITS! " >

[Fitzochris01]

But did you notice the coat of arms? Background of blue for rivers and brown for land = swamp. He's running around Westeros, small and unnoticed, and that's what mice do. Remember Arya the mouse at Harrenhal? But this is no ordinary mouse, it's a mouse that is white with bright red eyes. Just like a weirwood, which we all know was the symbol on the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. What better coat of arms for Howland Reed to be sneaking around unregarded? IT ALL FITS! AAAAAAAGHHH!

< Runs off into the distance, waving arms madly and screaming. "IT ALL FITS! IT ALL FITS! IT ALL FITS! IT ALL FITS! " >

It's not the craziest theory I've heard, to be fair.

[Doorlocks]

I finished up a second read of the chapter, jotting down a few thoughts. A lot of them focus on the relationship between Sansa and LF, but it was hard not to with how much room it took up in the chapter.

• Mya Stone has been hanging around this narrative for too long to be just another character. Robert’s bastard children are going to play their part I believe.
  
• Sweetrobin’s infatuation with Sansa is not the triviality it’s being treated as at the moment. I see it coming back and having a major impact on Sansa’s storyline.
  
• I believe our best read on Harry might be Sweetrobin’s. Harry really wants the Vale, and expects it- just as every other character expects Sweetrobin to die. That could explain why he was so rude to Alayne… he has no time for bastard daughters when he’s aiming for whichever Lady he can get when Lord of the Vale.
  
• I’ve seen some say that they feel like Sansa has regressed, but I don’t think that’s true. She’s happy literally for the first time basically since Winterfell. Acting like she did there and in her earliest days in court (although I would argue that even those were tainted by Lady’s death and her first glimpse of the true Joff) is the only way she knows how to express happiness. She’s learned no other way yet. So although she might be focusing on the things that once made her happy (traditional gender roles and class roles, dances, feasts, tourneys, etc.) everything else about her has changed. Her motivations for focusing on those things, her experience of them, her thoughts about them- all different.
  
• I find the Sansa/Petyr relationship fascinating. Whatever his motivations, whatever she might do in the future, it’s important that he has helped her be happy for the first time in years. I see no sign of reticence or scheming on Sansa’s part in this chapter, she seems full in with Petyr. She seems to like him and enjoy him on multiple levels, and to trust him.
  
• Sansa’s enthusiasm was almost shocking on the first read-through. It’s rare to see someone so happy and relatively unburdened in this series. “Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again…” has to be one of the most nakedly optimistic and positive lines written since the first book.
  
• I love Sansa coming up with the tournament on her own, although it’s implied that Petyr was hoping for such an idea. Interesting that it started as a plan to help Sweetrobin and then it was included as part of the plan to win Harry. Another sign of Harry being a red herring?
  
• I liked Myranda and Alayne’s friendship. Was Myranda the first character to explicitly express what everyone expects is the true meaning behind Littlefinger’s nickname? Even if not, what a curious exchange. Why would Myranda feel it’s appropriate to ask a daughter that or even expect her to know the truth?
  
• Sansa only mentally refers to Petyr as “Littlefinger” once, when he smiles a smile that doesn’t reach his eyes, tells her she’s beautiful, and then gives her explicit instructions for her seduction of Harry.
  
• LF’s instructions for Sansa: “Smile at the boy… touch him when you speak… tease him… do not give [your favor] to him… you do not want to seem to eager.” Sansa follows these instructions almost word for word.
  
• It’s back to Petyr when he kisses her on the cheeks. Interesting that flattery and deviousness are associated with Littlefinger, but Petyr is associated with affection.
  
• Every single lemon in the Vale. Goddamn, Petyr. Note that Sansa was in on the plans for the cake, it’s not a surprise. Petyr wanted her to know that the cake was hers, although officially Robert’s. He brags to Sansa that he’s using every lemon in the Vale, then promises that he’ll get some from Dorne as well. Sansa seems to revel in both things, the thought and the extravagance.
  
• “Charm him. Entrance him. Bewitch him.” Sansa repeats Littlefinger’s training mentally to get her through situations, paralleling Arya and her mentors.
  
• George makes sure to note that Robert is staring at Alayne/Harry while they dance, even through a cloud of sweetmilk.
  
• Sansa’s domination of Harry in their clash of wits was a thing of beauty.
  
• “Besides, Petyr said that I should not seem eager.”
  
• “Petyr will howl when I tell him what I said.”
  
• I’m not a Sansa/Littlefinger shipper, but this chapter is just filled with the guy. He’s on Sansa’s mind almost every second, even when with or thinking about Harry. Even when not explicitly thinking or speaking about Petyr, he’s often still present in her actions. It seems to me that GRRM is going out of his way to beat into us that her relationship with Petyr is the most important in her life for now, with no strong signs that this will change. If anything, her loyalty to Petyr is only growing. That’s not something that should be ignored, no matter how one feels about LF as a character.
  

[Free Northman Reborn]

The glaring weakness in this sub-plot is the way in which Martin just kind of brushed over how on earth they got the most eligible bachelor in the Vale to marry the hated Baelish's bastard daughter.

It doesn't make sense, but because it is needed for the plot, it is just kind of bulldozed through.

[HexMachina]

The glaring weakness in this sub-plot is the way in which Martin just kind of brushed over how on earth they got the most eligible bachelor in the Vale to marry the hated Baelish's bastard daughter.

It doesn't make sense, but because it is needed for the plot, it is just kind of bulldozed through.

1) That is addressed in FfC; it was a condition of buying out the Waynwood debt

2) there isn't even a guarantee of marriage, it's dependent on Harry liking her

3) Harry is only the Vale's most eligible bachelor if if Robert dies. Otherwise, he is not much of a catch. So at this very moment in the story, a match to Alayne isn't really a social shocker

[NotSoSilentSister]

A lot men don't have all options either. I didn't say you have access to everything at once.

And my point is that there's no fault in using those options you've got access too, as long as you keep switching to better ones the moment the opportunity arises. (Which is sadly easier for guys, since for women it's a lot harder to shake the stigma once you've gone to a certain well, but you can only play the cards you're dealt).

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I'm glad that it was clarified that Gulltown isn't the only port in the Vale, the power of House Royce seems to be emphasised more and more every chapter.

I'm reserving judgement on Harry until we see more of him, he seems like a bit of a prick, but so would most characters if they were forced into Littlefinger's machinations and betrothed to someone so far below them.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So let me get this straight.

Littlefinger has total control over the sickly young Lord of the Vale. At the same time he goes to great trouble to buy out the Waynwood debt in exchange for marrying his bastard daughter to Lord Robert's only heir. A man who has nothing going for him except being first in line to Lord Robert's seat. A man who everyone, including the little Lord Robert himself, knows is just waiting for Lord Robert to die to take his place.

And no one sees Littlefinger's obvious intention with this move? Once again, an example of Martin making Littlefinger look smart by turning everyone else into blithering idiots.

[Fearodh]

There are parallels between the Stark children and their mentors.

Bran is taught in greenseeing by Brynden.

Arya is taught assasination by the kindly Man.

Sansa is taught political scheming by LF.

They all had big trouble getting to their mentor. The mentor is the best in their respective field. And all three mentors have their own motives we don't know much about at the moment. It is well possible that some Starks have to revolt against their mentor in the near future.

Rickon and Jon do not have such a mentor currently, though they might also get one. Perhaps Stannis will mentor Rickon about war and Melisandre might teach Jon in magic.

And then imagine all 5 coming back together. Rickon becomes a powerful King of the north with Sansa pulling strings, Bran predicts the future, Jon keeps them safe from enemy warlocks and Arya slays anybody trying to oppose them.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Agreed.

It's sad some people just see a random douchebag although Martin is so talented in builing up characters.

I don't necessarily think he's Joffrey come again, but I can't really see more than a garden variety callow youth either. It's not just the snobbishness, but also the way he trash talks his first baby mother, treating her like a discarded toy after she grows fat. I mean, of course he would, given his age and his socialization. He's no better than he ought to be, that's all.

Mostly he just comes across as not very smart. He clearly has no internal filter, doesn't know who he can and can't afford to openly insult (someone apparently had to tell him that he can't affort to insult Littlefinger, otherwise he wouldn't have felt compelled to show contrition at the ball) and won't do very well at court intrigue.

I could well imagine that he matures a bit though through the course of the story and genuinely comes to like Sansa and Sansa might end up liking him well enough as well, so that it will be somewhat tragic when he meets his premature demise. But I just don't think he's as crucial to Littlefinger's plot as Littlefinger has been claiming for now, and I don't see much potential for being more than a pawn.