Poor Stannis! and the Manderly Umber Coalition

[yankee211]

I find it odd that the northern houses will turn on Stannis. Is he likeable, no, but he could be a better king than Areys, Robert, and Joffery combined. And don't forget Stannis's reinforcements from bravoos, assuming Massey is able to get the army. I really hope Stannis does not die, because GRRM gave him such a comeback after the battle of blackwater.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Stannis is trying to place a Stark back to Winterfell. The North before Stannis bowed to Boltons. If that happens I hope Stannis opens the wall for walkers, and relases Ramsay and Roose if he captures them. And then proceeds to burn the North to the ground

Stannis tried to have Jon at Winterfell because Jon owed him and was supporting him at the Wall. He would not have been so eager to help Robb remove the Boltons. It wasn't about Stannis trying to help the Starks but trying to set up the North to follow him rather than keep up their fight for independence.

I find it odd that the northern houses will turn on Stannis. Is he likeable, no, but he could be a better king than Areys, Robert, and Joffery combined. And don't forget Stannis's reinforcements from bravoos, assuming Massey is able to get the army. I really hope Stannis does not die, because GRRM gave him such a comeback after the battle of blackwater.

It's not odd. The North doesn't want any other king. They want a Stark. Their allegiance is to the Starks not the Iron Throne and definitely not to Stannis.

[~No One~]

Stannis tried to have Jon at Winterfell because Jon owed him and was supporting him at the Wall. He would not have been so eager to help Robb remove the Boltons. It wasn't about Stannis trying to help the Starks but trying to set up the North to follow him rather than keep up their fight for independence.

It's not odd. The North doesn't want any other king. They want a Stark. Their allegiance is to the Starks not the Iron Throne and definitely not to Stannis.

Re: the bolded part - Stannis had Rob "leached". If that info ever got out, the Northern lords would all be surviving winter on Stan Pies.

[Hrulj]

Re: the bolded part - Stannis had Rob "leached". If that info ever got out, the Northern lords would all be surviving winter on Stan Pies.

He was in full right to do that. Robb was the enemy who wanted to take half the kingdom away. Yet he doesnt hold that against the entire family and seeks to put them back in powerr

[~No One~]

He was in full right to do that. Robb was the enemy who wanted to take half the kingdom away. Yet he doesnt hold that against the entire family and seeks to put them back in powerr

Well, not really back in power, because what the North wanted was to secede from the 7K. And if they ever find out that Stan "had something to do with" Robb's death, I doubt they'd think, "Oh, well, Robb was a traitor, so let's just be thankful Stannis swooped in to help us with our Bolton infestation."

There are Northmen (Boltons) in power right now, but the North's problem with them is the betrayal via the RW. Stan wouldn't come off as any less guilty in their eyes.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I do believe on a Northern Conspiracy but not so well planned as it is claimed. I just believe in a Manderly,Umber,Glover and Mormont union to overthrow the Boltons.They know from Wex the truth about the sack of Winderfell and the survival of Bran and Rickon and they know about Robb's will,they hate Freys for the Red Wedding and suspect Roose's role in it too.But winter is delaying their plans (Davos),Stannis now holds the only surviving Stark (Arya) and Jon is unavailable now.Even when Winderfell falls, Stannis is still useful.He can face Bolton loyalists (Dustins,Ryswells) and take Dreadford..So for most of Winds they will side with Stannis.Near the end, when Rickon and/or Jon return they will leave him.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

He was in full right to do that. Robb was the enemy who wanted to take half the kingdom away. Yet he doesnt hold that against the entire family and seeks to put them back in powerr

It's circular logic: Stannis was right from his own point of view. If you accept Stannis' point of view, you'll agree that he was in the right, and in result accept Stannis' point of view. See the problem?

And here's a fact you seemingly managed to miss: all those lords who shouted "King in the North!" did not accept Stannis' point of view as their own. And without "Stannis is right" as the starting point, they won't reach the conclusion that Stannis is right.

[AliceRose]

Stannis is trying to place a Stark back to Winterfell. The North before Stannis bowed to Boltons. If that happens I hope Stannis opens the wall for walkers, and relases Ramsay and Roose if he captures them. And then proceeds to burn the North to the ground

He is already planning to burn the North, he wants to burn the most important part of it, Weirwoods.

Stannis also burns people. The north hasn't forgotten the horrible death of lord Rickard Stark, they will never forget.

They wouldn't kneel to another fire addicted king.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

He was in full right to do that. Robb was the enemy who wanted to take half the kingdom away.

Robb was the man the Northerners chose to lead them to independence. They declared him king in the North, not Robb himself. The Northern lords declared him their king when all they needed to do was fight some battles and hopefully get Ned back. Stannis declared Robb his enemy while Robb wasn't at all concerned about Stannis or his bid for the Iron Throne. He was fighting for his father's freedom and later, for the North's independence. It is unlikely that the Northern lords will now embrace Stannis who wants them to renounce their independence and bend the knee. Stannis is not trying to restore a Stark to power in the North but get the North under his control. He is only fighting there as a path to being king of Westeros. Stannis is gambling here and it looks like it will lead to some successes - he will most likely win back Winterfell - but it won't pay off in the long run because the North doesn't want Stannis to rule them. They want a Stark.

[AliceRose]

He was in full right to do that. Robb was the enemy who wanted to take half the kingdom away. Yet he doesnt hold that against the entire family and seeks to put them back in powerr

Stannis should have remembered sooner that be a King mean be Protector of the Realm.

Where was Gondor Stannis was Eddard Stark was captured?

Where was Stannis when Jaime Lannister besieged Riverrun?

Robb Stark was here to protect his people, Stannis wasn't.

Stannis was at Dragonstone and he didn't even declare himself king.

No one knew he was the rightful King, no one knew the truth about the incest. As much as they knew Stannis could even decide to side with his nephew, King Joffrey.

[Hrulj]

Robb was the man the Northerners chose to lead them to independence. They declared him king in the North, not Robb himself. The Northern lords declared him their king when all they needed to do was fight some battles and hopefully get Ned back. Stannis declared Robb his enemy while Robb wasn't at all concerned about Stannis or his bid for the Iron Throne. He was fighting for his father's freedom and later, for the North's independence. It is unlikely that the Northern lords will now embrace Stannis who wants them to renounce their independence and bend the knee. Stannis is not trying to restore a Stark to power in the North but get the North under his control. He is only fighting there as a path to being king of Westeros. Stannis is gambling here and it looks like it will lead to some successes - he will most likely win back Winterfell - but it won't pay off in the long run because the North doesn't want Stannis to rule them. They want a Stark.

And Robb had the duty to refuse such an offer. Stannis found Robb's mother with Renly, didnt he? She didnt go to Stannis. She went to Renly. He has shown where he stands. So if North is part of 7 kingdoms the Starks arent rulling it as Lords Paramount? Starks didnt rule the North for past 300 years?

Stannis should have remembered sooner that be a King mean be Protector of the Realm.

Where was Gondor Stannis was Eddard Stark was captured?

Where was Stannis when Jaime Lannister besieged Riverrun?

Robb Stark was here to protect his people, Stannis wasn't.

Stannis was at Dragonstone and he didn't even declare himself king.

No one knew he was the rightful King, no one knew the truth about the incest. As much as they knew Stannis could even decide to side with his nephew, King Joffrey.

Why would Eddards capture concern him?

Where was Renly?

Where was Robb when Stannis besieged KL? The war could have been ended there.

Robb was there to prottect his people? If 2 person can be listed, who caused most damage to the North in last century, it would be Robb and his idiot mother.

He spurned his duty and went back on his promise to Freys.

He executed the most important war leaders of his army, while he spared his mother who did much worse.

His Mother undermined war effort beyond repair with her idiocy.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

And Robb had the duty to refuse such an offer. Stannis found Robb's mother with Renly, didnt he? She didnt go to Stannis. She went to Renly. He has shown where he stands. So if North is part of 7 kingdoms the Starks arent rulling it as Lords Paramount? Starks didnt rule the North for past 300 years?

Catelyn went to Renly because he had already declared his intentions and she wanted to reason with him. Stannis had not yet done so. Anyway, you can discuss Stannis' past as much as you'd like. It doesn't change the fact that the North wanted independence and they chose a Stark as their king. They didn't want to be a part of the 7 kingdoms anymore. Robb had a duty to his father and his people first and foremost. It was not an ambitious move from Robb, like it is with Stannis. Stannis is sadly ignoring this and hopes to realize his ambitions to win the throne by starting in the North and wining the Northerners over by fighting their enemies for them. It will more than likely not work out that way for him.

[Bironic]

No one knew he was the rightful King, no one knew the truth about the incest. As much as they knew Stannis could even decide to side with his nephew, King Joffrey.

They could have known after the 114 Ravens and after Davos and his sons spread the story in the Harbors of Westeros. And after the sudden deaths and strange behaviours going on in KL: death of Jon Arryn, escape from Stannis and Lysa, death of Robert, death of Eddard, raising of Janos Slynt to lord of HH, releasing of Barristan Selmy.

And if he would have sided with Joffrey he would have gone to KL in the moment of Robert's dead to acknowledge him (like Cersei ordered him to). He was declared a traitor afterwards.

It doesn't change the fact that the North wanted independence and they chose a Stark as their king. They didn't want to be a part of the 7 kingdoms anymore.

That's true, but do they still have that dream of independence even after Robb's whole war campaign turned it into a nightmare?

Torrhen Stark knelt, perhaps the North will bend his knees again. If Manderly stays true to his word (I will acknowledge Stannis as my true king, if he gets my liege lord back), than most northerners will follow.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

That's true, but do they still have that dream of independence even after Robb's whole war campaign turned it into a nightmare?

Torrhen Stark knelt, perhaps the North will bend his knees again. If Manderly stays true to his word (I will acknowledge Stannis as my true king, if he gets my liege lord back), than most northerners will follow.

But after he says that, there is a conversation about how the Manderly's are loyal to the Starks. What's more, Manderly has just cooked up Freys that were on route with him and is creating havoc in Winterfell. He is not going to keep his word to Davos. I also don't think he'll survive but that's another thread.

And yes, if it were Bran that was going to be brought back, I'd say there is a strong chance that the North will bend the knee again. But it does not look as though Rickon will be that "reasonable".

[Hrulj]

Catelyn went to Renly because he had already declared his intentions and she wanted to reason with him. Stannis had not yet done so. Anyway, you can discuss Stannis' past as much as you'd like. It doesn't change the fact that the North wanted independence and they chose a Stark as their king. They didn't want to be a part of the 7 kingdoms anymore. Robb had a duty to his father and his people first and foremost. It was not an ambitious move from Robb, like it is with Stannis. Stannis is sadly ignoring this and hopes to realize his ambitions to win the throne by starting in the North and wining the Northerners over by fighting their enemies for them. It will more than likely not work out that way for him.

Stannis had done so. I just finished re-reading that part. Stannis send more than hundred of ravens and 100 knights to read proclamations everywhere.

They wanted independence. They chose a Stark. They failed. It is not his ambition to win the throne. Its his duty. Stannis hopes that human decency exists.

But after he says that, there is a conversation about how the Manderly's are loyal to the Starks. What's more, Manderly has just cooked up Freys that were on route with him and is creating havoc in Winterfell. He is not going to keep his word to Davos. I also don't think he'll survive but that's another thread.

And yes, if it were Bran that was going to be brought back, I'd say there is a strong chance that the North will bend the knee again. But it does not look as though Rickon will be that "reasonable".

Being loyal to Starks doesnt exclude being part of 7K. That is why there is the Lordship paramount insitution.

Why would Rickon not be that reasonable? He is a child.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Stannis had done so. I just finished re-reading that part. Stannis send more than hundred of ravens and 100 knights to read proclamations everywhere.

They wanted independence. They chose a Stark. They failed. It is not his ambition to win the throne. Its his duty. Stannis hopes that human decency exists.

Being loyal to Starks doesnt exclude being part of 7K. That is why there is the Lordship paramount insitution.

Why would Rickon not be that reasonable? He is a child.

Stannis sent ravens that would have gone to castles and keeps. Robb was already in the field. And Rickon is showing strong signs of being a throwback to the wilder Starks. Having said that, seeing your thoughts on Stannis not being having ambitions to win the throne shows me that further discussion would be futile since we have fundamental differences in how we are interpreting the text. Regardless of that, it is very clear that he is hoping to win over the Northerners and that will be quite a challenge considering they don't want him as their king. We'll see how it plays out in the next book.

[Hrulj]

Stannis sent ravens that would have gone to castles and keeps. Robb was already in the field. And Rickon is showing strong signs of being a throwback to the wilder Starks. Having said that, seeing your thoughts on Stannis not being having ambitions to win the throne shows me that further discussion would be futile since we have fundamental differences in how we are interpreting the text. Regardless of that, it is very clear that he is hoping to win over the Northerners and that will be quite a challenge considering they don't want him as their king. We'll see how it plays out in the next book.

And lords dont have any connection to their homes after war starts. They dont visit towns, villages and castles during the war either?

But tbh, I think you are just trolling, since you are ignoring the obvious.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

And Robb had the duty to refuse such an offer. Stannis found Robb's mother with Renly, didnt he? She didnt go to Stannis. She went to Renly. He has shown where he stands. So if North is part of 7 kingdoms the Starks arent rulling it as Lords Paramount? Starks didnt rule the North for past 300 years?

Why would Eddards capture concern him?

Where was Renly?

Where was Robb when Stannis besieged KL? The war could have been ended there.

Robb was there to prottect his people? If 2 person can be listed, who caused most damage to the North in last century, it would be Robb and his idiot mother.

He spurned his duty and went back on his promise to Freys.

He executed the most important war leaders of his army, while he spared his mother who did much worse.

His Mother undermined war effort beyond repair with her idiocy.

You know, when you list all the perceived transgressions of Robb's North against Stannis, you're really just underscoring the blatantly obvious fact that the Northern perspective and Stannis' perspective differ significantly. Which, in turn, can only reinforce the expectation that they'll kick his sorry ass as soon as he's done being useful.

[AliceRose]

And lords dont have any connection to their homes after war starts. They dont visit towns, villages and castles during the war either?

But tbh, I think you are just trolling, since you are ignoring the obvious.

Obvious is the fact that Catelyn decides to go to discuss with King Renly in chapter 7 of ACOK, Stannis send his letters in chapter 10 ACOK.

Catelyn had already gone when the letter arrives.

Catelyn goes to speak with Renly because Robb needs help and because there is no one else to ally with.

Stannis hadn't even written the letter when Catelyn started her journey.

[Hrulj]

Obvious is the fact that Catelyn decides to go to discuss with King Renly in chapter 7 of ACOK, Stannis send his letters in chapter 10 ACOK.

Catelyn had already gone when the letter arrives.

Catelyn goes to speak with Renly because Robb needs help and because there is no one else to ally with.

Stannis hadn't even written the letter when Catelyn started her journey.

No offense, but I clearly remember Stannis and Renly talking about those letters, and Renly saying that Stannis has no proof of that, and Catelyn spending the night thinking about it.