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The Will to Change: Rereading Sandor


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SANDOR IV: ANALYSIS



Violence finally erupts between Stark and Lannister after escalating tensions between the two great houses reaches a peak, and the newly appointed Hand of the King finds himself troubled by both Clegane brothers—one on the offensive in the Riverlands, and the other a dangerous presence at King’s Landing. Their participation in the violence against Tully and Stark bookends this section, as Sandor IV begins with the account of Gregor’s atrocities in the Riverlands and ends with the slaughtering of the Stark household in King’s Landing. In the midst of this, Sandor occupies a place in the thoughts of Ned’s daughters, as the younger proclaims Sandor should be beheaded for the killing of Mycah, and the elder comes to his defense. And a possible act of disobedience by the younger Clegane hints to a shift from Lannister to Stark.



While Sandor’s participation in the slaughter of Ned’s men may have yet again earned the animosity of readers, the comparison between him and the brother he loathes, as well as how the Lannisters employ both, offers a greater understanding of Sandor’s character. Tywin, a shrewd, calculating man, knows exactly how to extract the most out of his resources, so it’s no accident that Gregor acts as vicious aggressor while Sandor is employed as the ferocious protector. In a section where Sandor appears on-page in only one of the outlined chapters, developing a better understanding of who Sandor is lies within his relationship with his brother, and just how the Lannisters use both.



Sandor’s hatred and cynicism toward the institution of knighthood and his own brother becomes even more understandable after a few surviving villagers bear witness to the wanton violence Gregor and his men unleash on the Riverland commoners. Indiscriminate of age, gender, and method of violence used, the hypocrisy of knighthood, an institution that romanticizes and glamorizes violence, is openly displayed right on the heels of Sandor’s own testimony to Sansa wherein he recounts his own victimization at Gregor’s hands. In addition to tarnishing the ideals of knighthood by deceitfully disguising themselves as marauding brigands, the toying of the apprentice boy also underscores that they’re not just strictly following orders, but derive pleasure from inflicting pain and terror.





They rode down my ‘prentice boy,” said the squat man with a smith’s muscles and a bandage around his head. He had put on his finest clothes to come to court, but his breeches were patched, his cloak travel-stained and dusty. “Chased him back and forth across the fields on their horses, poking at him with their lances like it was a game, them laughing and the boy stumbling and screaming till the big one pierced him clean through.”


This strongly contrasts with Sandor’s style of killing, wherein he quickly and efficiently delivers the fewest amount of blows. And regardless of his “I’m the butcher and they’re the meat” proclamations, there is no textual evidence to suggest Sandor finds enjoyment from watching others suffer, especially considering the theme that is significant to his arc—that of mercy. What we can discern from his feelings toward his brother is that he goes well out of his way to be nothing like Gregor, from emphatically eschewing knighthood and demonstrating that he does follow an honorable code, already exhibited when defending Loras from Gregor’s murderous rage.



Sandor would certainly have had to prove himself a fearsome and efficient warrior, as well as loyal, to earn him the rank of Sworn Shield, but Tywin would never entrust his daughter and grandson to a savage rapist and killer. Despite his brooding, angry temperament, Sandor thus far has only displayed discipline and tremendous restraint, especially in contrast to Gregor’s explosive temper. Tyrion’s comment, “the man does have a temper” when at Winterfell, and Sandor’s training in the yard both there and at King’s Landing, as well as his performance in the tourney, implies that Sandor channels all of his rage and pain into the practice yard, tourney matches, and battlefield, rather than allowing it to bubble up to the surface only to explode into random acts of violence, such as Gregor punching Pia in the face and smashing out all of her teeth simply because she spoke in his presence.



Sandor’s hatred for his brother and his desire to kill him is clearly well known since both Robert and Littlefinger comment on it.





“A fuck you, Ned,” the king said hoarsely. “I killed the bastard, didn’t I?” A lock of matted black hair fell across his eyes as he glared up at Ned. “Ought to do the same for you. Can’t leave a man to hunt in peace. Ser Robar found me. Gregor’s head. Ugly thought. Never told the Hound. Let Cersei surprise him.”




“Ah, but Gregor was his to loathe, not yours to kill. Once Dondarrion lops the summit off our Mountain, the Clegane lands and incomes will pass to Sandor, but I wouldn’t hold my water waiting for his thanks, not that one.”


While Sandor may appear outwardly angry that he just might be deprived at killing his own brother, which may have something to do with the early practice session beneath Ned’s window (though, would it be unusual for the Hound to be practicing early, as we already know he’s an early riser and practices hard?), however, he already passed up the perfect opportunity to kill Gregor. As brashcandy stated in her analysis, Sandor is using this “desire” as a coping mechanism. There’s also future evidence that indicates that Sandor actually harbors a much deeper desire, a desire that moves to the forefront of his consciousness as his relationship with Sansa evolves: to have lands and family of his own.



Sandor’s attack against Ned’s own soldiers casts him in the role of villain as the Starks have been built up as the protagonists and the Lannisters as antagonists, especially ramped up when readers realize the extent of the Lannisters’ avarice and viciousness. However, Ned’s men drew first steel and Sandor’s primary duty was to protect the king and the queen regent. Yet, it is possible he disobeyed direct orders.



Considering that neither Vayon Poole nor Septa Mordane were spared in the bloodshed, it stands to reason that a sadistic Joffrey, or even a vicious Cersei, ordered every member of the Stark household killed with the exception of Ned, Sansa, and Arya. Yet, Jeyne Poole was spared, which angered Cersei upon finding out Jeyne had been rooming with Sansa.





“Everyone has been very sweet and pleasant, Your Grace, thank you ever so much for asking,” Sansa said politely. “Only, well, no one will talk to us or tell us what’s happened…”


“Us?” Cersei seemed puzzled.



“We put the steward’s girl in with her,” Ser Boros said. “We did not know what else to do with her.”



The queen frowned. “Next time you will ask,” she said, her voice sharp. “The gods only know what sort of tales she’s been filling Sansa’s head with.”




There are only two people who would have motivation to keep Jeyne alive: Sandor and Littlefinger. Sandor for the sake of Sansa, and Littlefinger for the sake of his own machinations. Since we know Sandor commands his own men and led the attack against Ned’s own soldiers, and, according to Jeyne, he was the one who broke down her door; it stands to reason that Sandor ordered that Jeyne be taken to Sansa’s quarters.* It’s this act of disobedience that implies Sandor is shifting his loyalty from Lannister to Stark, and, more specifically, from Cersei to Sansa. In addition, Sansa’s defense of the Hound after Arya declares she wants someone to cut off his head suggests that she continues to hold favorable feelings for him.




*For more on this, please see Milady of York’s essay here .



Edit: Correction to the Petyr Baelish quote.


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SANDOR IV: ANALYSIS

<snip>

Sandor’s hatred and cynicism toward the institution of knighthood and his own brother becomes even more understandable after a few surviving villagers bear witness to the wanton violence Gregor and his men unleash on the Riverland commoners. Indiscriminate of age, gender, and method of violence used, the hypocrisy of knighthood, an institution that romanticizes and glamorizes violence, is openly displayed right on the heels of Sandor’s own testimony to Sansa wherein he recounts his own victimization at Gregor’s hands. In addition to tarnishing the ideals of knighthood by deceitfully disguising themselves as marauding brigands, the toying of the apprentice boy also underscores that they’re not just strictly following orders, but derive pleasure from inflicting pain and terror.

Wonderful analysis, DL! I am increasingly intrigued by the judicial motifs that Martin uses to frame our insight into the two brothers and to underscore their differences. Again, as you establish, Gregor is being called to answer for his crimes, but has powerful protectors in place to guarantee that he escapes justice. The villagers are traumatised and terrified, and had the knights not forced them to appear, it's evident they would never have dared to come to the city to bear witness against Lord Tywin's "mad dog." Relevant to what we were discussing earlier with Oberyn and Gregor, Ned is careful to differentiate between doing justice vs. pursuing vengeance, and this is one of the reasons why he turns down Loras' offer to go after the Mountain, even though it may not have been the most politically crafty decision to make.

The sadistic toying of the 'prentice boy helps to put Sandor's own killing of Mycah into perspective, and reveals that while Sandor might be called on to act viciously within the system, Gregor recognizes no such system at all, and is specifically authorised to carry out these blatantly lawless and indiscriminate acts of violence. That here we have a knight carrying out these vicious acts makes the irony all the more greater and supports Sandor's disdain towards the institution. No one seriously considers Pycelle's suggestion that the villagers take up their complaint with Gregor's liege lord, and the other council members are apathetic at best.

Sandor’s attack against Ned’s own soldiers casts him in the role of villain as the Starks have been built up as the protagonists and the Lannisters as antagonists, especially ramped up when readers realize the extent of the Lannisters’ avarice and viciousness. However, Ned’s men drew first steel and Sandor’s primary duty was to protect the king and the queen regent. Yet, it is possible he disobeyed direct orders.

Yes, Sandor is firmly in duty mode here, down to being outfitted in full armour, and although he's constantly singled out by Ned and other characters during the developing crisis, there's really nothing he could have done differently but act in accordance to his role as sworn shield and Lannister fighter. Ned stumbles into a trap that has already been prepared by craftier minds, and was woefully outnumbered once LF double crossed him on the gold cloaks. He also misjudges the "brave show" in the yard that morning, when it was really the Lannister men preparing for the planned overthrow of the Stark household. Sandor's killing of Cayn, first cutting off his hand and then the death blow, provides us with another opportunity to see his signature killing style in operation (he will later cut off another man's hand this time in defence of a Stark) and, as you note, makes his later rescue of Jeyne Poole all the more conspicuous and suggestive.

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Good analysis, DogLover! And thanks for the shout-out to my piece on Sandor as a commander.



From this chapter gathering, the first thing that caught my attention in Eddard’s opening chapter is the presence of Thoros and Beric in the throne room hearing, which is something to keep in mind because they later will try Sandor for Lannister crimes, and in this audience some of the crimes that were hurled at Sandor are mentioned as being committed by Gregor within both men’s earshot, underscoring just how great a sham that trial was, as we’ll expand on later.



Then, there’s the Hand’s sentence:



“In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, his Hand, I charge you to ride to the westlands with all haste, to cross the Red Fork of the Trident under the king’s flag, and there bring the king’s justice to the false knight Gregor Clegane, and to all those who shared in his crimes. I denounce him, and attaint him, and strip him of all rank and titles, of all lands and incomes and holdings, and do sentence him to death. May the gods take pity on his soul.”



The reason I bring this into discussion is because the bolded passage reveals something: Gregor is stripped of lands of titles by royal decree through Ned, thus making Sandor the new de jure head of House Clegane, which is supported by Littlefinger reminding Ned that the lands and titles are now Sandor’s now. And this decree was never reverted by Robert, who had no time anyway, courtesy of the boar, so Sandor technically was the new landholder and titleholder until the Lannister coup that rendered Lord Stark’s decrees null and void on his defeat and imprisonment. This gives a new context to Sandor’s “I have no lands nor wife to forsake” comment upon taking the Kingsguard place in next chapter, Sandor V, for wife he may not have had, but he effectively did for a short while have lands and a title thanks to the Hand of the King. The Global Timeline lists eleven days from Ned’s sentence to the Lannister betrayal, so that gives an idea of about how long it lasted.



As for Cersei’s coup and the eventual slaughter of the Stark household by the Lannister men, one detail that escapes scrutiny on first read is that not all of Ned’s people were servants. In AGOT Bran VII, Maester Luwin tells this:




“They don’t fight very well,” Bran said dubiously. He scratched Summer idly behind the ears as the direwolf tore at a haunch of meat. Bones crunched between his teeth.


“For a certainty,” Maester Luwin agreed with a deep sigh. The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky. “Yet given time . . . Ser Rodrik has the truth of it, we need men to walk the walls. Your lord father took the cream of his guard to King’s Landing, and your brother took the rest, along with all the likely lads for leagues around. Many will not come back to us, and we must needs find the men to take their places.”



So that indicates they were mostly guards, and the best Winterfell had besides; armed men that would put up resistance when their liege lord is arrested in the throne room, which accounts for the noise of fighting that Sansa heard in her confinement and what Arya witnessed trying to escape the castle. As soldiers, they were fair game in a clash with other armed men from a rival faction acting on behalf of their own liege. Besides Jeyne, who counts as an unarmed innocent that should be spared (but Cersei’s words reveal she didn’t think the girl would be), only Septa Mordane and Vayon Poole weren’t fair game, for their status as godsworn septa and unarmed servant, so should’ve been spared, and their deaths can be laid at Joffrey’s feet for his order to kill them all and forgive none.

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What are your opinions of Sandor's raucous laughter during the Tournament? I think there is more to it than just "Nice! My asshole brother just made a fool of himself in front of the entirety of Westerosi nobility!"

Did he want his brother to hear him? <snip>

Or maybe he was just so taken aback and delighted by Loras's scheme and its consequences that he got lost in the humor of the moment without thinking of what was about to befall Loras; then the murder of the horse brought him back to himself and he had to jump in as fast as possible. In that case, then, the volume of his laughter would be genuine, and he wouldn't even have considered that his brother might hear it. I doubt this could be possible, mainly because Gregor's violence is always on his mind, especially during these scenes.

Good question. It had not occurred to me that it was anything other than Sandor's surprise and delight...especially as he had had the conversation with Sansa the night before where she stated no one could withstand Gregor. Sandor could have been thinking, "Didn't see that coming! Someone DID withstand him, and it was that little rose! HA!"

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Great analysis DogLover. I really like your point how the Lannisters use Gregor to do their real dirty work. The point really highlights the fundamental differences between Gregor and Sandor. Also, I like how you've explained that Sandor is much more of a protector than an aggressor.






The sadistic toying of the 'prentice boy helps to put Sandor's own killing of Mycah into perspective, and reveals that while Sandor might be called on to act viciously within the system, Gregor recognizes no such system at all, and is specifically authorised to carry out these blatantly lawless and indiscriminate acts of violence. That here we have a knight carrying out these vicious acts makes the irony all the more greater and supports Sandor's disdain towards the institution. No one seriously considers Pycelle's suggestion that the villagers take up their complaint with Gregor's liege lord, and the other council members are apathetic at best.





Yes, Gregor recognizes no bounds to his killing and brutality and enjoys all of it. My opinion of Sandor is that he does like being a warrior and he is proud of his skills, but he does have personal limits to his use of violence. Also, Gregor's use and application of violence is shocking and unlawful by even Westeros' standards.



Finally, I just wanted to say thanks to MiLady for her last essay. It was a very interesting and awesome read. Sorry for my belated thanks. I would have commented earlier, but I didn't have much time, as of late, to sit down, read, and contemplate the whole thing.

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Eddard XIII, Chapter 47

A dying Robert tells Eddard that he didn’t tell the Hound about the orders to execute Gregor, leaving it to Cersei to pass on the news:

I had forgotten this. Clearly Cersei did not pass along the news to Sandor that his brother was attainted and stripped of lands and incomes. Cersei ensured that Sandor would accept the Kingsguard position with Joffrey by withholding that information from him.

Great job, Doglover. I am truly enjoying this terrific reread and the contributions here. ETA: great job

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Yes, Gregor recognizes no bounds to his killing and brutality and enjoys all of it. My opinion of Sandor is that he does like being a warrior and he is proud of his skills, but he does have personal limits to his use of violence. Also, Gregor's use and application of violence is shocking and unlawful by even Westeros' standards.

Indeed. While Sandor is off protecting Joffrey on a royal hunt, sanctioned and supervised by the King and his knights, Gregor is on a very different kind of hunt - pillaging and terrorising the Riverlands. When he returns to court we hear of Sandor going straight to Cersei and it reinforces that essential orderliness that governs his service with the Lannisters, and which will be put increasingly under pressure when his allegiance shifts.

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Finally, I just wanted to say thanks to MiLady for her last essay. It was a very interesting and awesome read. Sorry for my belated thanks. I would have commented earlier, but I didn't have much time, as of late, to sit down, read, and contemplate the whole thing.

Welcome back, OGE, we were missing you in the reread. Thank you! I hope you found it informative.

I had forgotten this. Clearly Cersei did not pass along the news to Sandor that his brother was attainted and stripped of lands and incomes. Cersei ensured that Sandor would accept the Kingsguard position with Joffrey by withholding that information from him.

I think this might be an unintentional misunderstanding, as the reason Sandor accepted the Kingsguard post wasn't because he didn't know his brother had been stripped of lands and title. That was public information, said in the throne room with plenty of witnesses listening on, therefore even if Cersei had withheld the information, which she had no reason to do at all, he'd have been bound to find out right away from someone in the castle, even from gossip. He was told, that's certain. He stopped to be the de jure head of his House not when he took the white cloak but before, when the Lannisters overtook the power and that annulled Ned's rulings.

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Welcome back, OGE, we were missing you in the reread. Thank you! I hope you found it informative.

I think this might be an unintentional misunderstanding, as the reason Sandor accepted the Kingsguard post wasn't because he didn't know his brother had been stripped of lands and title. That was public information, said in the throne room with plenty of witnesses listening on, therefore even if Cersei had withheld the information, which she had no reason to do at all, he'd have been bound to find out right away from someone in the castle, even from gossip. He was told, that's certain. He stopped to be the de jure head of his House not when he took the white cloak but before, when the Lannisters overtook the power and that annulled Ned's rulings.

Oh, understood. It's interesting that he never thinks about it though. I would think from Sandor's perspective that Ned is doing the right thing: recognizing what Gregor is and has done and punishing him appropriately. No one else was willing to deliver justice to the Mountain for his enormities. Then the Lannisters, who enabled Gregor's abuses, annulled Ned's rulings which would have provided some justice and compensation to Sandor who suffered at his brother's hands.

Thanks for the clarification.

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Oh, understood. It's interesting that he never thinks about it though. I would think from Sandor's perspective that Ned is doing the right thing: recognizing what Gregor is and has done and punishing him appropriately. No one else was willing to deliver justice to the Mountain for his enormities. Then the Lannisters, who enabled Gregor's abuses, annulled Ned's rulings which would have provided some justice and compensation to Sandor who suffered at his brother's hands.

Thanks for the clarification.

He doesn't have a POV, so we're barred from a lot of his perspective and deeper thoughts on certain issues, and at this time his interaction with Sansa was infrequent and their relationship not as well developed as we see later on in ACOK. However, based on his later reaction when he is made Kingsguard, we can intimate that this is something that Sandor has thought about quite a bit, irrespective of what Ned decreed against his brother, so it's likely that he would have given the news significant thought when he heard about it. I wanted to acknowledge your point about how Ned is the one to have provided him with a brief opportunity for retribution against his brother. As I pointed out before, Ned stresses that he is after justice, not vengeance, and he tries to see that this is done by sending men that don't hold personal grievances against Gregor. This reasoning would have been very much in keeping with the behaviour Sandor needed to follow in order to free himself from the hold hating Gregor has over his life, but instead there's LF saying to Ned that he will not be thanked by Sandor for taking the act of killing his brother out of his hands, and even Robert finds it a source of amusement on his deathbed. What it reveals is just how much the Lannisters and those around them were only too happy to continue to exploit Sandor's service, while being completely disinterested in seeing that whatever legitimate justification he had for wanting his brother dead was ever fulfilled.

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I think this might be an unintentional misunderstanding, as the reason Sandor accepted the Kingsguard post wasn't because he didn't know his brother had been stripped of lands and title. That was public information, said in the throne room with plenty of witnesses listening on, therefore even if Cersei had withheld the information, which she had no reason to do at all, he'd have been bound to find out right away from someone in the castle, even from gossip. He was told, that's certain. He stopped to be the de jure head of his House not when he took the white cloak but before, when the Lannisters overtook the power and that annulled Ned's rulings.

This is quite interesting actually, as we later see Sandor tell Arya that Robb will make him a lordling. Here, Eddard makes him a de factor titled land holder, which interestingly, Cersei et al later remove by reinstating Gregor.

Combined with the fact that Sandor obviously has given quite some thought to the fact that he doesn't, in fact, hold any lands, nor have any wife or family, there seems to be some hints that his possible future elevation will come from the North. Perhaps it somehow foreshadows that the Starks will eventually be where he ends up and where he will be properly appreciated and not just used as a tool. (We know from Tywin that there is a tool for every task and a task for every tool.)

It's also worth considering that the Lannister rule reversed Ned's ruling, but as we know there will be other rules on the Iron Throne in the future, perhaps they will in turn reverse the Lannisters' rulings?

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Thanks, everyone! I’m glad you enjoyed the analysis. I woke up in the middle of the night realizing the Petyr Baelish quote was incorrect (these are the things that haunt me at night). :blushing: It’s been edited from “his to kill” to “his to loathe, not yours to kill.”






Wonderful analysis, DL! I am increasingly intrigued by the judicial motifs that Martin uses to frame our insight into the two brothers and to underscore their differences. Again, as you establish, Gregor is being called to answer for his crimes, but has powerful protectors in place to guarantee that he escapes justice. The villagers are traumatised and terrified, and had the knights not forced them to appear, it's evident they would never have dared to come to the city to bear witness against Lord Tywin's "mad dog." Relevant to what we were discussing earlier with Oberyn and Gregor, Ned is careful to differentiate between doing justice vs. pursuing vengeance, and this is one of the reasons why he turns down Loras' offer to go after the Mountain, even though it may not have been the most politically crafty decision to make.





Thanks, brash, and I agree! These motifs and dichotomies I find much more apparent and intriguing: Gregor the false knight in opposition to Sandor, the true (un)knight; Ned's insistence that justice be carried out instead of revenge; Arya's and Sansa's respective attitudes toward Sandor, which highlights Arya's own sense of justice (and the irony that Gregor, the real criminal, loses his head); and Ned's honor in comparison to the Lannisters' flagrantly lawless behavior. I'm in agreement with Lyanna Stark that there is significant foreshadowing that Sandor will find a place in the North, considering his own sense of morality and honor is more aligned with the Starks.





Good analysis, DogLover! And thanks for the shout-out to my piece on Sandor as a commander.




As for Cersei’s coup and the eventual slaughter of the Stark household by the Lannister men, one detail that escapes scrutiny on first read is that not all of Ned’s people were servants. In AGOT Bran VII, Maester Luwin tells this:




“They don’t fight very well,” Bran said dubiously. He scratched Summer idly behind the ears as the direwolf tore at a haunch of meat. Bones crunched between his teeth.


“For a certainty,” Maester Luwin agreed with a deep sigh. The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky. “Yet given time . . . Ser Rodrik has the truth of it, we need men to walk the walls. Your lord father took the cream of his guard to King’s Landing, and your brother took the rest, along with all the likely lads for leagues around. Many will not come back to us, and we must needs find the men to take their places.”



So that indicates they were mostly guards, and the best Winterfell had besides; armed men that would put up resistance when their liege lord is arrested in the throne room, which accounts for the noise of fighting that Sansa heard in her confinement and what Arya witnessed trying to escape the castle. As soldiers, they were fair game in a clash with other armed men from a rival faction acting on behalf of their own liege. Besides Jeyne, who counts as an unarmed innocent that should be spared (but Cersei’s words reveal she didn’t think the girl would be), only Septa Mordane and Vayon Poole weren’t fair game, for their status as godsworn septa and unarmed servant, so should’ve been spared, and their deaths can be laid at Joffrey’s feet for his order to kill them all and forgive none.





Thanks, Milady! Of course I had to give you a shout-out. :) I don't think I would have ever picked up on that detail myself, so I owe you the credit.



Thanks for providing this context, as Sandor has gained a bad rap for his participation, yet, as you pointed out, in addition to Ned's men drawing their blades first, they were actually fighting, and from what we know about Sandor just from the previous reread chapters (in addition to the global picture), he fights fairly.





Great analysis DogLover. I really like your point how the Lannisters use Gregor to do their real dirty work. The point really highlights the fundamental differences between Gregor and Sandor. Also, I like how you've explained that Sandor is much more of a protector than an aggressor.



Yes, Gregor recognizes no bounds to his killing and brutality and enjoys all of it. My opinion of Sandor is that he does like being a warrior and he is proud of his skills, but he does have personal limits to his use of violence. Also, Gregor's use and application of violence is shocking and unlawful by even Westeros' standards.



Finally, I just wanted to say thanks to MiLady for her last essay. It was a very interesting and awesome read. Sorry for my belated thanks. I would have commented earlier, but I didn't have much time, as of late, to sit down, read, and contemplate the whole thing.





Thank you, OGE. I tend to assume that Sandor feels about fighting the way Jaime does. When Jaime first holds a sword again after his release from captivity, he thinks: "This was what he was meant for; he never felt so alive as when fighting, with death balanced on every stroke." There's been much debate as to whether Sandor will ever swing the sword again, yet there is foreshadowing that he will, but for a much better cause than serving the Lannisters.






I had forgotten this. Clearly Cersei did not pass along the news to Sandor that his brother was attainted and stripped of lands and incomes. Cersei ensured that Sandor would accept the Kingsguard position with Joffrey by withholding that information from him.



Great job, Doglover. I am truly enjoying this terrific reread and the contributions here. ETA: great job





Thanks, Avlonnic. One small detail I noticed while rereading these chapters is the party that returned early from the hunt included the Royces, and it was Robar Royce who Ned sent to deliver the news to Robert, so Sandor certainly must have heard from him on their way back. If not beforehand.



ETA: Another small detail I noticed is that someone ordered servants to bring Sansa and Jeyne some of their personal belongings. Not sure if it's relevant to the larger picture, but since Cersei doesn't know Jeyne is alive, who would have given the orders? Sansa could have requested the servants to do so, but the wording suggests someone else saw to this. It doesn’t seem like a detail that Sandor would concern himself with, so I wonder if Petyr already has his eyes set on poor Jeyne.




That evening, some women brought her clothes from the Tower of the Hand, and some of Jeyne’s things as well, but they seemed nearly as frightened as Jeyne, and when she tried to talk to them, they fled from her as if she had the grey plague.
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ETA: Another small detail I noticed is that someone ordered servants to bring Sansa and Jeyne some of their personal belongings. Not sure if it's relevant to the larger picture, but since Cersei doesn't know Jeyne is alive, who would have given the orders? Sansa could have requested the servants to do so, but the wording suggests someone else saw to this. It doesn’t seem like a detail that Sandor would concern himself with, so I wonder if Petyr already has his eyes set on poor Jeyne.

Well Cersei doesn't attend to every little detail. There were noble prisoners after all, so some minor concessions to their position would be made by their guards (Jeyne is likely being confused with Arya at this stage). And given that Baelish has Jenny thrown into his brothels and whipped until she submits, I don't think polite gestures are anything he cares about.

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ETA: Another small detail I noticed is that someone ordered servants to bring Sansa and Jeyne some of their personal belongings. Not sure if it's relevant to the larger picture, but since Cersei doesn't know Jeyne is alive, who would have given the orders? Sansa could have requested the servants to do so, but the wording suggests someone else saw to this. It doesn’t seem like a detail that Sandor would concern himself with, so I wonder if Petyr already has his eyes set on poor Jeyne.

Well Cersei doesn't attend to every little detail. There were noble prisoners after all, so some minor concessions to their position would be made by their guards (Jeyne is likely being confused with Arya at this stage). And given that Baelish has Jenny thrown into his brothels and whipped until she submits, I don't think polite gestures are anything he cares about.

Welcome to the reread, Odon! I hope you'll stick round here.

That Jeyne would've been taken for Arya that early is an interesting interpretation. Sansa was escorted directly from meeting the queen to the room where she was confined for days, and it makes sense that Jeyne would be taken for Arya at first by those not very familiar with her if we consider that it wasn't till the fighting was over that they realised they didn't have the younger Stark girl. The Winterfell retainers were housed in the Tower of the Hand section of the castle, which also explains why the fighting was concentrated there as per what Sansa heard from inside her chambers, and it'd not have been much bother to fetch Jeyne's things alongside Sansa's, both being in the same tower, and more so if they thought they were sisters (they sleep embracing "like sisters" to comfort each other, and servants must've observed it and reached that conclusion). That Jeyne wasn't allowed any polite gestures would be supported in that it's described she was "bruised and shaking," she might have been handled roughly, possibly because she was hysterical with fear.

Another point of note in this chapter grouping is Sansa's comment to Septa Mordane after her father's decree on The Mountain that Rides:

Sansa sighed. “They rode with Lord Beric, to behead Ser Gregor Clegane.” She turned to Septa Mordane, who was eating porridge with a wooden spoon. “Septa, will Lord Beric spike Ser Gregor’s head on his own gate or bring it back here for the king?” She and Jeyne Poole had been arguing over that last night.

The septa was horror-struck. “A lady does not discuss such things over her porridge. Where are your courtesies, Sansa? I swear, of late you’ve been near as bad as your sister.”

This makes Gregor the first of our potential "giants" in Sansa's (and by extension, Sandor's) arc to be mentioned as having his head put on a spike and placed by a castle's walls, the second being Littlefinger in the Eyrie scene when he steps over the walls of the little snowy Winterfell and is after linked to a legend of a giant's head displayed on its walls when Sansa rips off the doll's head. And this also goes to reinforce the idea that the imagery in Bran's dream definitely is alluding to a collision between the ashen and golden figures and Gregor Clegane, whether the author intends to give this impression or is engaging in red-herringry to distract.

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Well Cersei doesn't attend to every little detail. There were noble prisoners after all, so some minor concessions to their position would be made by their guards (Jeyne is likely being confused with Arya at this stage). And given that Baelish has Jenny thrown into his brothels and whipped until she submits, I don't think polite gestures are anything he cares about.

Welcome Odon! :cheers: Good point, but if Jeyne was mistaken for Arya, wouldn't they have brought her Arya's things?

The reason I bring this into discussion is because the bolded passage reveals something: Gregor is stripped of lands of titles by royal decree through Ned, thus making Sandor the new de jure head of House Clegane, which is supported by Littlefinger reminding Ned that the lands and titles are now Sandor’s now. And this decree was never reverted by Robert, who had no time anyway, courtesy of the boar, so Sandor technically was the new landholder and titleholder until the Lannister coup that rendered Lord Stark’s decrees null and void on his defeat and imprisonment. This gives a new context to Sandor’s “I have no lands nor wife to forsake” comment upon taking the Kingsguard place in next chapter, Sandor V, for wife he may not have had, but he effectively did for a short while have lands and a title thanks to the Hand of the King. The Global Timeline lists eleven days from Ned’s sentence to the Lannister betrayal, so that gives an idea of about how long it lasted.

Milady, I agree, considering he held lands and titles for nearly weeks definitely gives additional meaning to his comment “I have no lands nor wife to forsake. And who would care if I did?” Obviously, Cersei didn’t. I wonder if Cersei’s true motivation for elevating Sandor to the Kingsguard, despite not being a knight, was as consolation prize since he was deprived of both inheritance and justice. And while it might have been intended to appease him, it may have added salt to unhealed wounds. But, of course, this is a discussion for Sandor V.

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I had never paid attention to that detail before about how Ned had stripped Gregor of his lands and holdings which effectively gave them to Sandor and then the Lannisters being the ones to take that away from him again. Excellent little detail. It already sets up the theme of Sandor's shifting his allegiance from Lannister to Stark. It seems to have almost put Ned in a father figure position to Sandor too which is interesting because as we saw in the scene when he told Sansa of how he truly got his burns, one of the other factors that was so devastating for Sandor was that his own father didn't support him and allowed Gregor to be kept in a position where he would be rewarded despite his horrendous crime. Now Ned in a way has done something to punish Gregor and remove the rewards he's received in a way that Sandor's own father never did. And I know that we are not supposed to get too far ahead of the current chapters, but having this in mind makes me wonder about the remorse Sandor expresses later regarding how he watched them cut off Ned's head and if this even adds more to the guilt he seems to be feeling about that.


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The moment he unsheathes his sword in response to Ned’s men, Sandor himself is implicitly acknowledging that the lands and incomes will pass back to Gregor. Unless Beric were to somehow kill Gregor (interesting that both LF and Ned seem to see this as an actual possibility), the Lannisters would never respect Ned’s decree or the passing of the lands to the younger brother; Sandor knows this and fights against Ned’s men anyway. That is not to say it was a decision he made; after all, he was really just doing his duty. But still, he had to reconcile with himself that continuing to serve the Lannisters would mean being used to further their own interests at the expense of his wants and needs. Mentally and emotionally, he's not yet prepared to break away from what he knows. His allegiances are only just starting to shift at this point, as evidenced by his act of disobedience*. Later we see that he has entertained the notion of becoming a lordling, but here he is still more or less the famous Loyal Hound, and that loyalty trumps any personal desire for lands.



This brings me to LF’s statement to Ned about Sandor, (which has a lot in common with a later conversation with Ned about Stannis). I think the wording is important. Ned wasn’t the only spectator at the Tournament to notice Sandor’s reticence to kill Gregor. LF also saw this and came to the conclusion that Sandor was fine with hating Gregor forever (he has probably heard the same sort of rumors as Ned and Robert) but not with acting on that hatred. Otherwise, he’d have said, “Gregor was [sandor’s] to kill, not yours.” If LF/giants/Gregor/prophecies end up coming together somehow, this assumption might become relevant. (DogLover, it took you mentioning the correction of that quote for me to think about what it could imply, so... thanks!)



Secondly, LF implies that inheriting lands, money and a title would not interest Sandor if they came at the price of someone killing Gregor. Maybe that assessment was true at the moment, but, as brashcandy said, Ned’s decision to serve justice – instead of vengeance – may have been precisely what Sandor needs to overcome his obsession with Gregor. Both the need for justice and the empty victory that is vengeance form a big part of ASoIaF in general and Sandor’s arc in particular. It is a concept he continually struggles with. And of course, by participating in the slaughter of Ned’s people, Sandor accepts that he doesn’t get the Clegane lands - but does he truly abandon the possibility of becoming a landowner? I am inclined to agree with DogLover’s analysis, which illustrates that Sandor harbors a deeper desire than that of killing his brother: the desire to have lands and a family of his own. I think this is another example of LF missing the mark with regard to Sandor by assuming he “gets” Sandor’s way of thinking and by underestimating his wants and long-term goals.



*Thank you for pointing this out – it’s another example of how readers are conned into seeing the Hound as a bad guy. In this, case, he’s the bad guy who breaks into Jeyne’s room with a warhammer. However, if he hadn’t been so intent on being the first to get to her, there’s a good possibility she wouldn’t have survived the day. (Considering her fate, though, maybe he shouldn't have bothered. I don't mean to sound callous, but putting myself in her shoes, I would prefer a quick death to what LF, his clients and Ramsay have in store for me. Reading about Jeyne breaks my heart. The fact that, excluding Sansa, Sandor was probably the last person to show her compassion before she was tossed to Littlefinger is just one more point in Sandor's favor). This is a much smaller-scale version of Jaime’s murder of Aerys; only instead of hearing “the real story” from the actual character, we must depend on analytic readers such as yourselves.



It is definitely note-worthy that the Lannisters continually screw one of their best men over while the Starks just plod right along, righting Sandor's wrongs or at least offering the possibility to do so. We'll have to keep an eye out to see at what point he notices this trend. Thanks, Elba the Intoner, for mentioning that, and to everyone who has expressed the opinion that he may find a place in the North more in line with his ideals.


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I had never paid attention to that detail before about how Ned had stripped Gregor of his lands and holdings which effectively gave them to Sandor and then the Lannisters being the ones to take that away from him again. Excellent little detail. It already sets up the theme of Sandor's shifting his allegiance from Lannister to Stark. It seems to have almost put Ned in a father figure position to Sandor too which is interesting because as we saw in the scene when he told Sansa of how he truly got his burns, one of the other factors that was so devastating for Sandor was that his own father didn't support him and allowed Gregor to be kept in a position where he would be rewarded despite his horrendous crime. Now Ned in a way has done something to punish Gregor and remove the rewards he's received in a way that Sandor's own father never did. And I know that we are not supposed to get too far ahead of the current chapters, but having this in mind makes me wonder about the remorse Sandor expresses later regarding how he watched them cut off Ned's head and if this even adds more to the guilt he seems to be feeling about that.

I'm not entirely sure that Ned's actions gave the lands to Sandor. Ned declared Gregor attainted

by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, his Hand, I charge you to ride to the westlands with all haste, to cross the Red Fork of the Trident under the king’s flag, and there bring the king’s justice to the false knight Gregor Clegane, and to all those who shared in his crimes. I denounce him, and attaint him, and strip him of all rank and titles, of all lands and incomes and holdings, and do sentence him to death. May the gods take pity on his soul.”

I believe this action officially returns the lands to the crown. I suspect in most cases, including this one, the likely outcome would be to judge that the second son and heir, having had no part in the crimes of his brother, would be granted the lands, title, incomes, etc. Pragmatically since Gregor is sworn to Tywin, this may well be an excuse to summon Tywin to court to address the disposition of the lands and title.

Either way I think this raises a curious point. Did the Lannisters actually, legally, give the lands and title back to Gregor? We get a few scenes where a litany of regal decrees are listed. Tywin after the Blackwater comes to mind and so does Tommen signing documents. None of these actually mention undoing Ned's decree which would still be entirely valid even if he were actually guilty of the treason they claimed he was. To the best of my knowledge, legally speaking, Gregor is still attainted, stripped of his lands and titles-- still a false knight.

I subscribe to the pragmatic ASOIAF legal philosophy that swords are mightier than pens and also make much better lawyers than maesters do. Plot-wise I don't think the legality matters at all at least in the ways we tend to think of respecting legal decrees. Maester Perry Mason will not be winning Sandor any Clegane lands. Laws are pretexts for the ambitious, shadows on the wall where men may believe power resides, or ideals respected by the 3 and half honorable characters George hasn't killed yet.

Ned's treason is supposedly plotting against Robert's son to give the throne to an uncle. Ned's decree came before his treason, and the Lannister position is that Joffrey is Robert's legitimate son and legitimate heir. By that pretext Ned's pre-treason decree as Robert's Hand stripping Gregor is in fact valid and must be legally reversed. It seems to have been ignored rather than reversed based on the I-have-an-army-and-you-don't school of legal thought. That it seems to have been ignored has some potential for a future pretext.

Invalidating Tyrion's trial by combat seems the likely target if the issue were to crop up, but I suspect George is capable of surprising us. It would be a little funny if the BwB technically has unrevoked legal sanction from Joffrey through Ned to kill Gregor and his men. It may never come up. It may have been done off page so none of this may matter. Being undead strikes me as a much bigger issue than an iffy legal status. Still a curious potential outstanding issue. Ned's focus in that scene is on justice vs. vengeance. He denies Piper the permission to sack Gregor's lands and omits Loras because he too wants vengeance not justice. If it does raise its head I would expect a justice vs. vengeance context. If Sandor is on a redemption path of sorts, in theory his vengeful reasons for killing Gregor ought to be colored with justice by the time they have what many of us believe is their impending showdown.

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Either way I think this raises a curious point. Did the Lannisters actually, legally, give the lands and title back to Gregor? We get a few scenes where a litany of regal decrees are listed. Tywin after the Blackwater comes to mind and so does Tommen signing documents. None of these actually mention undoing Ned's decree which would still be entirely valid even if he were actually guilty of the treason they claimed he was. To the best of my knowledge, legally speaking, Gregor is still attainted, stripped of his lands and titles-- still a false knight.

Cersei tore Robert's will which shows that the Lannisters do not care about legalities that much.

In addition, Ned was legally a traitor who confessed his treason. So, his decrees as the Hand might have been declared illegal in the first place, which leads to the idea that Gregor was attainted and convicted falsely. So, the Lannisters probably didnot need to do anything regarding Gregor.

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The moment he unsheathes his sword in response to Ned’s men, Sandor himself is implicitly acknowledging that the lands and incomes will pass back to Gregor. Unless Beric were to somehow kill Gregor (interesting that both LF and Ned seem to see this as an actual possibility), the Lannisters would never respect Ned’s decree or the passing of the lands to the younger brother; Sandor knows this and fights against Ned’s men anyway. That is not to say it was a decision he made; after all, he was really just doing his duty. But still, he had to reconcile with himself that continuing to serve the Lannisters would mean being used to further their own interests at the expense of his wants and needs. Mentally and emotionally, he's not yet prepared to break away from what he knows. His allegiances are only just starting to shift at this point, as evidenced by his act of disobedience*. Later we see that he has entertained the notion of becoming a lordling, but here he is still more or less the famous Loyal Hound, and that loyalty trumps any personal desire for lands.

There's another possible reason why Sandor doesn't have lands and a family of his own, the main being plot reasons as the author wanted it that way, but it's something best left for next chapter. Here, however, I do believe that he really didn't have any ambitions about his House's holdings but that doesn't have to do with his loyalty to the Lannisters, rather with his brother himself and his own worldview. There's little merit in getting what's rightfully going to be his anyway, as Gregor's legitimate heir, by way of inheriting it thanks to a royal bill of attainder deeming him a brigand and rebel, and Sandor's words on why Robb should make him a lordling imply that lands and a title is something he'd prefer to have by way of doing something himself, by merits if not regular inheritance.

This brings me to LF’s statement to Ned about Sandor, (which has a lot in common with a later conversation with Ned about Stannis). I think the wording is important. Ned wasn’t the only spectator at the Tournament to notice Sandor’s reticence to kill Gregor. LF also saw this and came to the conclusion that Sandor was fine with hating Gregor forever (he has probably heard the same sort of rumors as Ned and Robert) but not with acting on that hatred. Otherwise, he’d have said, “Gregor was [sandor’s] to kill, not yours.” If LF/giants/Gregor/prophecies end up coming together somehow, this assumption might become relevant. (DogLover, it took you mentioning the correction of that quote for me to think about what it could imply, so... thanks!)

Secondly, LF implies that inheriting lands, money and a title would not interest Sandor if they came at the price of someone killing Gregor. Maybe that assessment was true at the moment, but, as brashcandy said, Ned’s decision to serve justice – instead of vengeance – may have been precisely what Sandor needs to overcome his obsession with Gregor. Both the need for justice and the empty victory that is vengeance form a big part of ASoIaF in general and Sandor’s arc in particular. It is a concept he continually struggles with. And of course, by participating in the slaughter of Ned’s people, Sandor accepts that he doesn’t get the Clegane lands - but does he truly abandon the possibility of becoming a landowner? I am inclined to agree with DogLover’s analysis, which illustrates that Sandor harbors a deeper desire than that of killing his brother: the desire to have lands and a family of his own. I think this is another example of LF missing the mark with regard to Sandor by assuming he “gets” Sandor’s way of thinking and by underestimating his wants and long-term goals.

I find it doubtful that Littlefinger, the one that misjudged Sandor so badly as to be convinced he'd allow Jaime to defeat him just because he was a Lannister, would be of a sudden so observant as to notice that Sandor wasn't trying to kill Gregor, and would right away therefore reach such conclusions as that he's fine with hating him but not fine with killing him. His words suggest, instead, that he knows what everyone else knows: that Sandor really, really hates his brother, which is no secret because Sandor himself hasn't exactly been shy about voicing it to the four winds.

One small yet significant point: Gregor didn't need to be dead for the lands and holdings to pass on to Sandor. A bill of attainder is usually of two types: one that strips the titleholder of everything, but allows the family to keep the lands and title, meaning that the next in line, be it son/daughter, sibling, uncle, etc., becomes the new titleholder and must take the oath of fealty to the liege lord or monarch. The case of the Starks is one such example, as Lord Eddard was attainted, but his family continued to hold the rights to Winterfell until Robb seceded.

The second type strips the entire House of titles and lands and possessions, meaning no one from that family can inherit and the liege lord/monarch is free to give it to another person. In this scene, the wording of Eddard's sentence suggests it was of the former type: the Hand declared that Gregor ceased to be Ser Gregor of House Clegane, he was demoted to plain Gregor Clegane, rebel and traitor, and that made our Hound the new Ser/Master Sandor of House Clegane. Gregor could have continued alive for all eternity and Sandor would still have been the new titleholder so long as the decree was maintained. So, I'd say no, it wasn't the idea of his brother dying at the hands of Lord Stark's men what was needed for him to become a landowner that made him balk at it, he already was one.

*Thank you for pointing this out – it’s another example of how readers are conned into seeing the Hound as a bad guy. In this, case, he’s the bad guy who breaks into Jeyne’s room with a warhammer. However, if he hadn’t been so intent on being the first to get to her, there’s a good possibility she wouldn’t have survived the day. (Considering her fate, though, maybe he shouldn't have bothered. I don't mean to sound callous, but putting myself in her shoes, I would prefer a quick death to what LF, his clients and Ramsay have in store for me. Reading about Jeyne breaks my heart. The fact that, excluding Sansa, Sandor was probably the last person to show her compassion before she was tossed to Littlefinger is just one more point in Sandor's favor). This is a much smaller-scale version of Jaime’s murder of Aerys; only instead of hearing “the real story” from the actual character, we must depend on analytic readers such as yourselves.

Not sure of how exactly we're led to conclude that Sandor was intent on being the first to get at Jeyne, as nothing in the text is pointing out to such a possibility that I can see. All we know is that he first fought on the throne room with the Kingsguard, twenty crimson cloaks and the Gold Cloaks, whereas the majority of the Stark men were outside, just a handful with Ned. This comment implies that he intentionally went to wherever Jeyne was to get her, and that's quite unlikely. We don't even know if he fought in the Tower of the Hand or got there when the other Lannister men had done most if not all of the killing already. Does he even have a reason to think Jeyne was in that room? I don't think we can say that. The poor girl was likely thrown into a room and told to bar the door and not open to anyone as soon as the fight started, which is why Sandor had to break the door with a warhammer that was likely not even his (his primary weapon is a longsword, he was fighting with one there), and we don't even know if that was because in her fright Jeyne didn't open the door as she was asked, as that is one possibility that might have led the men outside to think more of the Northern forces were taking refuge there.

It's a somewhat curious statement to make considering how Sandor is often expected to spare Mycah, let him run for his life and flee somewhere far from the Lannister vengeance instead of killing him as he was ordered, or even bring him alive to his liege and let them do as they pleased with him, just to do right and avoid murdering an innocent, thus not tainting himself with the blood of a child, to date still his most heinous deed. And yet, here, he's expected to not have saved Jeyne Poole, another innocent child, and should've stepped aside to allow her to be killed for naught. But this is his first good deed in favour of an innocent child on-page, an act that in itself is worthy of acknowledgement for what it is, but because we readers have the 20/20 vision of hindsight, it's considered that it'd have been better for her to have been killed there and then.

This no-win situation is not precisely a fair one either, and It's very difficult to understand this need to construe his good deeds in such a diminishing manner. Criticised for doing bad, criticised for doing good. And in none of the cases he was in full possession of the information we readers have: he neither knew Mycah was innocent, and he is no Bloodraven to have imagined Jeyne's sickening fate. I do believe, however, that keeping in mind what the characters know is key to properly analysing events, for once we forget that they don't possess an eagle-view type of perspective on things as we do, they'd be little more than ignoramuses who make so many mistakes and should've known better.

I'm not entirely sure that Ned's actions gave the lands to Sandor. Ned declared Gregor attainted

by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, his Hand, I charge you to ride to the westlands with all haste, to cross the Red Fork of the Trident under the king’s flag, and there bring the king’s justice to the false knight Gregor Clegane, and to all those who shared in his crimes. I denounce him, and attaint him, and strip him of all rank and titles, of all lands and incomes and holdings, and do sentence him to death. May the gods take pity on his soul.”

I believe this action officially returns the lands to the crown. I suspect in most cases, including this one, the likely outcome would be to judge that the second son and heir, having had no part in the crimes of his brother, would be granted the lands, title, incomes, etc. Pragmatically since Gregor is sworn to Tywin, this may well be an excuse to summon Tywin to court to address the disposition of the lands and title.

Either way I think this raises a curious point. Did the Lannisters actually, legally, give the lands and title back to Gregor? We get a few scenes where a litany of regal decrees are listed. Tywin after the Blackwater comes to mind and so does Tommen signing documents. None of these actually mention undoing Ned's decree which would still be entirely valid even if he were actually guilty of the treason they claimed he was. To the best of my knowledge, legally speaking, Gregor is still attainted, stripped of his lands and titles-- still a false knight.

I believe that perhaps understanding what types of attainders there are in-universe, which reflect those of real life attainders of the time, will illustrate the point, Ragnorak, because I'm getting the idea that a distinction is missing here. See above in my reply to Ornitorrinca, where I point out why I believe Sandor becomes the de jure head of his House. The attainder is against Gregor exclusively, not against House Clegane, and it doesn't revert the lands to the crown because those lands aren't of the crown in the first place, but of the Lord Paramount of the Westerlands. The only way they would've been reverted to the crown would have been if the whole of House Clegane had been attainted, which is when the crown has the right to dispose of the lands, though the overlord would have to be involved, likely, since it's in his dominions.

Sandor would've needed to take an oath of fealty to House Lannister as the new head to become formally so, but that's a formality like renewing oaths.

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