The Will to Change: Rereading Sandor

[Milady of York]

Thank you, ladies, for your compliments and above all for your thoughtful responses. Much appreciated!

This is such a marvellous little nugget right there. All three Big Game Hunters seem to either ignore Sandor, or find him little more than a single-minded brute. Tyrion charts his movements to see when he is away from Joffrey, but not once does he seriously consider bribing Sandor, or trying to lure him over to his side. Varys and Littlefinger seem to just view him as a non-entity.

It also reminds me of what Ser Dontos later says to Sansa about all the people watching each other, and how nobody watches a fool.

"I hear all sorts of things as a goold that I never heard when I was a knight. They talk as though I am not there, and the Spider pays gold for any trifle. I think Moon Boy has been his for years."

...

"Joffrey and his mother say I'm stupid"
"Let them. You're safer that way, sweetling. Queen Cersei and the Imp and Lord Varys and their like, they all watch each other keen as hawks, and pay this one and that one to spy out what the others are doing, but no one ever troubles themselves about Lady Tanda's daughter, do they?"

So in a way, Sandor is hiding in plain sight, as it were. Nobody would suspect him so nobody watches him (at least not in the correct circumstances), and his loyalty is without question. He might not be a fool, but instead he's just a dog.

That's very true! Of the Big Game Hunters as you call them, the one that seems to be more on the know about Sandor is Varys, who is at a minimum aware of his routine in the castle and in ASOS he says something to Tyrion about how even "the faithful dog is kicked," that coming from him makes me wonder if he was referring to the Hound, newly a deserter by then. But regardless of what the Spider knows, he sure as daylight won't even try to tempt the Hound. Tyrion knows Sandor on a personal level rather than the more social/professional information in the possession of the former, and that is enough for him to realise he best leave him out of his schemes if he doesn't want Sweet Cersei to find out what he's up to. And of all three, Littlefinger is the one that underestimates Sandor the worst, really, which in view of his much bragged-about conviction that even the humblest pieces can refuse to make a move and his professed suspicions on "sheep," looks like intentionally set up by the author to be one of those overlooked details to come back to bite him where it hurts.

I don't think it can be overstated how important this is to Sansa and for her navigating the Lannister camp in Kings Landing. Littlefinger as always, doesn't lift his little finger to help her, but Sandor gives her hands on advice when she asks for it. Using that, she is able to build upon it and improve.

It makes you wonder how savvy he actually is at diplomacy, lying and pretending, even though he claims to hate liars. He's shown time and time again that even though he claims to despise liars, he is very adept at lying himself and can do so very quickly and nimbly, helped along further by the fact that everyone seems to regard him as a thick brute with a brain inversely proportional to his muscles. At a guess, he must be pretty good at sounding out Cersei and Joffrey after having spent years in their company, and I imagine a youth spent trying very hard not to offend crazy, murderous Gregor probably assisted him too.

Lyanna Stark got to this before I did, but I have a few small things to add, even while totally agreeing with what she mentioned about his diplomacy skills. Her comments also made me realize how much Littlefinger likes to brag about flying under the radar while Sandor simply lets people see him as a brute while hiding some very valuable skill sets he is able to pass on to both Stark girls.

The small thing I wanted to add is with Sansa and later with Arya, he shows that he is good for seeing people for who they are and what they're good at and advising them based on those observations. Also in contrast to Littlefinger who is trying to mold Sansa into who he wants her to be, this is where we first see Sandor being able to train her for survival based on her own personality and skills.

Agreed on both of your thoughts, Lyanna and Duchess.

Concerning Sandor's diplomacy and pretending skills, and the apparent contradiction it seems to pose with regard to his outward claims to loathe lies and liars, my take has never been that there's a contradiction necessarily. As I see it, his affirmations about lies and liars don't translate as "no lying at all" under no circumstances but rather he's referring to hypocrisy and falsehood as behaviour, personality trait and way of interacting. There's being a hypocrite and disloyal and false for self-serving purposes, like Littlefinger, for example, or all those knights and courtiers who hide their true colours and pretend to be what they aren't for gain, and this is what he absolutely hates, the kind of lying he can't stand. And then there's circumstances when you have to tell an untruth for a good reason, like for self-preservation, to avoid conflict, to protect someone, to help . . . and that's the sort of lies he doesn't have a problem with essentially and understands, that he himself does engage in, like in this chapter. This is "the lies we tell for love" and "lies not without honour" that The Ned referred to, that are almost necessary to navigate society, more so one like King's Landing and the realm at large. If he had an issue with lies per se regardless of context, he'd not have told Sansa to use her politeness and pretending skills for her own good.

[Ragnorak]

You invented a word! Embuggerance! I need to use that in a sentence-- hopefully not in my autobiography.

ANALYSIS

THE KING, HIS QUEEN AND HIS BEST (NON-) KNIGHT

...

So many vows . . .

When young Sansa so dreamily likened Joffrey dismissing his frightful Hound from her presence to Prince Aemon championing Naerys from scurrilous gossip tainting her honour, she couldn’t have imagined she had assigned the roles wrongly and her “Dragonknight” was really the burnt man sent away. In this context, it’s interesting to note that she’s present in his elevation to Kingsguard, where the first thing she registers is that he’s taken a long time to accept the post, keeping his face unreadable, and his first remark is on a wife and lands. This comes in the wake of Ser Barristan’s tale of giving up a betrothal and his rights to the Selmy lands to pursue his life’s goal of becoming a White Sword, and might have been prompted by that at least in part, but it also alludes to what he’s going to renounce forever, that’s unveiled by the Night’s Watch oath:

“Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.”

According to The World of Ice and Fire, this is how the Kingsguard was created by Queen Visenya:

But out of all the tragedy was born one glorious thing: the Sworn Brotherhood of the Kingsguard. When Aegon and Visenya placed prices on the heads of the Dornish lords, many were murdered, and in retaliation the Dornishmen hired their own catspaws and killers. On one occasion in 10 AC, Aegon and Visenya were both attacked in the streets of King’s Landing, and if not for Visenya and Dark Sister, the king might not have survived. Despite this, the king still believed that his guards were sufficient to his defense; Visenya convinced him otherwise. (It is recorded that when Aegon pointed out his guardsmen, Visenya drew Dark Sister and cut his cheek before his guards could react. “Your guards are slow and lazy,” Visenya is reported to have said, and the king was forced to agree.)

It was Visenya, not Aegon, who decided the nature of the Kingsguard. Seven champions for the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, who would all be knights. She modeled their vows upon those of the Night’s Watch, so that they would forfeit all things save their duty to the king.

...

Jon VIII is one of the chapters listed for our consideration due to one mention of the Hound contained there, but it's noteworthy just how much the entire chapter is relevant for the discussion on vows and love vs. duty that your analysis highlights. First, there's irony in Mormont's reference to Sandor:

"... they gave his place to that black dog Clegane..."

Surely not meant as a compliment by the affronted Lord Commander, however we know that rather than viewing "dog" as an insult, it is "ser" that really disgusts Sandor Clegane, and isn't it interesting that Mormont refers to him as a "black dog" when the Nightswatch are known throughout the realm as the black brothers, and in a chapter where Maester Aemon will speak passionately to Jon on the conflict that arises when a man has to fulfill his duty or answer the call of his family and loved ones? In effect, rather than acting as an epithet towards the Hound, Mormont's statement situates Sandor with the NW and the ideals that those men attempt to uphold while serving under trying circumstances. Indeed, the NW and the Kingsguard are two of the oldest and once respected military type organisations in Westeros, before their sharp decline in recent history, and just as Sandor tries within his means to assist Sansa, there is Yoren in the city helping to rescue Arya.

...

First a little philosophical morality with regard to the Kingsguard and the Night Watch.

I view Aemon's raven and dove speech to Jon as the central morality metaphor of the series. In short, appearing to be holy, pure, or honorable to others like the dove or the saint-as-moral-coward Baelor is the clean hands easy way out. Life is complex and messy and you're going to get your hands dirty living it. Jon has blood on his hands and is serving up the feast for crows while Aemon speaks. Bloody hands are the consequence of choices. Kingsguard vows are reasons to follow vows instead of making choices. The Nights Watch prefers ravens-- the hated and misunderstood yet more effective choice of bird.

Especially in light of TWOIAF information about the root of the Kingsguard vows, the white of the Kingsguard cloak compared to the black of the NW seems to very much embody this moral distinction Aemon is making. Sandor, the black dog, while meant as a slur is quite the literary compliment. The Nights Watch was originally formed to protect the realms (plural) of men. The Iron Throne transforms this many realms and many kings into the single realm of one man. The Kingsguard institutionalizes the Nights King's perversion of the Watch despite the similarities of the vows. Both Mormont and Jon come to realize that the Wildlings are part of the realms of men. By a Dance with Dragons Jon explicitly notes to Bowen Marsh that their vows don't mention a king.

“Are you certain that I have not forgotten some <vows>? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord— what are these wildlings, if not men?”

The process of this dawning moral epiphany in Jon is the same process that leads the Kingsguard knights to choose a queen over a king. Yet because the Kingsguard vow is designed around loyalty to a man who is said to embody the realm, rather than a vow to protect the realms of men there is no way to keep that vow, to remain a dove, and take the moral path unless your Nights King leads you down it.

This moral distinction also plays out a bit in terms of obedience. Mormont lets Jon run away knowing he's going to do it. The Halfhand lets Jon choose how to dispose of Ygritte. Even in the GoT prologue we see a tremendous amount of pushback against Royce, from commoners and thieves, as he commands the ranging. The blind obedience that is so cherished in the Kingsguard is not so cherished in the Watch. Slynt's head could attest to end state of disobedience, but even he was not expected to blindly obey. Counsel in the Watch is expected and typical whether asked for or not.

Honor in the Watch and Aemon's speech are also very different from the Kingsguard. The Halfhand leaves Jon with the dilemma of what one man's honor is worth.

“Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe. Are you a man of the Night’s Watch?”
“Yes, but—”
“There is no but, Jon Snow. You are, or you are not.”

That same sentiment in the Kingsguard is applied only to the safety of one man and not the realm that holds his people. That line has a very different feel if the word "realm" is replaced with the word "king." The Halfhand orders Jon to soil his own cloak in service to the Watch compared to Jaime who feels the cloak soiled him and even Barristan who flirts with the same thoughts. "Honor" in the Kingsguard is technically clear even when it is clearly dishonorable. Aemon talks of the need to forsake love in the making of the Watch's vows yet he tells Jon that love is both our great glory and our great tragedy. When he asks Jon what Ned would do if caught between love and honor, Jon says Ned would do what is right, no matter what and not the what is honorable phrase that first comes to his thoughts. Aemon's response is:

What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms… or the memory of a brother’s smile?

It is easy to take the reasoning Aemon gives behind the creation of the vows and assume Aemon means honor is the glory and a woman's love is the tragedy, but that is not at all what he says. The only actual advice he gives Jon is that he must choose with the warning that he must be prepared to live with that choice. It is for the one confronted with the decision to make love or honor into a glory or deal with the tragedy of failure and own the consequences of the choice. The KG public perception of a saintly dove is achieved by removing the choosing, by bleaching the agency out of the cloak, and blindly following whoever the Nights King might be.

In Sandor's case, we see him beginning down the raven's path of choice and agency from the very beginning. While his own judgment of his failures to choose to act haunt him as we'll see in his later words to Arya, it is worth mentioning that Sansa happens to appreciate what he did choose to do. She'll save the "soiled" Kingsguard cloak that never did Rhaella any good.

It isn't just having Sandor called "black" in the chapter where Martin lays out the moral difference between black and white that matters. Sandor is the "black" that replaces the "white" of Barristan Selmy. That deserves more attention, but I've gone on quite enough for one post. Two parting items...

The Kingsguard is a brotherhood. Sandor will be put on trial by a brotherhood and saved by an Elder Brother to bookend his story so far with his actual elder brother that opened it. That seems worth exploring more.

Does Sandor actually take Kingsguard vows? I'm not interested in a legal technicality as a plot device to remove choices or consequences from Sandor. I'm just curious. Are the KG vows actually knightly vows such that none of these KG think they need to swear him in? Would Jaime the LC be expected to swear him in? It is a detail I'd expect to see at least mentioned, but that's hardly proof he didn't. If he never did that says a great deal about how he is perceived. That would mean he basically said he'd do it and everyone believed it without any feeling that a Sandor needed to be bound by oaths or vows beyond his words we see on page.

[Milady of York]

You invented a word! Embuggerance! I need to use that in a sentence-- hopefully not in my autobiography.

I wish I had! It's an embuggerance that I didn't. It's a word that's been in use in British English for as long as I have a memory, and it was Sir Terry of Discworld fame who popularised it.

Does Sandor actually take Kingsguard vows? I'm not interested in a legal technicality as a plot device to remove choices or consequences from Sandor. I'm just curious. Are the KG vows actually knightly vows such that none of these KG think they need to swear him in? Would Jaime the LC be expected to swear him in? It is a detail I'd expect to see at least mentioned, but that's hardly proof he didn't. If he never did that says a great deal about how he is perceived. That would mean he basically said he'd do it and everyone believed it without any feeling that a Sandor needed to be bound by oaths or vows beyond his words we see on page.

Assuming that the Kingsguard is never stated to be closed to men that don't follow the Seven, like the Northerners, or that follow two religions a la Bran, then I'd say they're not knightly vows really. My thought is that they're like the feudal oath of fealty, the wording of Ser Barry's recollection indicates a similarity with that oath. Since to be a knight is already a prerequisite to be a Kingsguard, it was required of Sandor to swear knightly vows first, which he as a Westerman and of a family that follows the Seven can do but doesn't want to, and that's why Boros specifically challenges him with the need for the members to be "knights."

As for your question on whether Jaime would need to be present to swear him in, apparently not, since the King has the authority to choose and swear a member in. Take the example of Osmund and Balon Swann, who were sworn in whilst Jaime was still captive, by Joffrey himself, and when the Lord Commander returns, he considers that a legal and done deal, and objects only to not being consulted on whom to choose, which sounds more like a matter of picking adequate candidates rather than the need for the Commander to preside the ceremony. So, Sandor was likely sworn in by Joffrey.

[brashcandy]

It is easy to take the reasoning Aemon gives behind the creation of the vows and assume Aemon means honor is the glory and a woman's love is the tragedy, but that is not at all what he says. The only actual advice he gives Jon is that he must choose with the warning that he must be prepared to live with that choice. It is for the one confronted with the decision to make love or honor into a glory or deal with the tragedy of failure and own the consequences of the choice. The KG public perception of a saintly dove is achieved by removing the choosing, by bleaching the agency out of the cloak, and blindly following whoever the Nights King might be.

In Sandor's case, we see him beginning down the raven's path of choice and agency from the very beginning. While his own judgment of his failures to choose to act haunt him as we'll see in his later words to Arya, it is worth mentioning that Sansa happens to appreciate what he did choose to do. She'll save the "soiled" Kingsguard cloak that never did Rhaella any good.

Yes, Martin establishes the duty vs. love theme as a profoundly human predicament, one where there's no wrong or right, or black or white answer as Jon struggles to find during his conversation with Aemon when he insists that Ned would do the "right" thing. Ned chooses to forsake his honour in King's Landing and proclaim that Joff is the rightful king precisely because he is motivated by the love for his daughter, which in itself is an honourable act. On the point of Sansa keeping Sandor's cloak, it's worth noting that Sansa has never let a stain stand in the way of her still appreciating a garment's worth:

When the king’s herald moved forward, Sansa realized the moment was almost at hand. She smoothed down the cloth of her skirt nervously. She was dressed in mourning, as a sign of respect for the dead king, but she had taken special care to make herself beautiful. Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she’d had them dye it black and you couldn’t see the stain at all.

Here too we see the white to black motif reflected in Sansa's clothing, and if Sandor believes that wearing the white cloak has left an indelible moral stain, Martin suggests that it's always possible, if not to entirely remove the stain, to find a better purpose that leads to redemption and change.

[Milady of York]

Thanks, Brash! Ragnorak and Mahaut said much of what I'd have on the rest of your points, but this bit is of particular interest:

Stunning analysis, Milady of York. To begin where you ended, Sandor finding his way out of soiled cloaks - and Sansa's deciding role in this - seems foreshadowed by the action she takes when she kneels before the king on Barristan's discarded cloak to plead for mercy for her father. As you noted in your summary, Sansa is the only one who feels compassion for the "naked knight" and here she inadvertently finds a way to make use of him, a purpose for his service that was deemed no longer suitable by Queen Cersei and her son. In begging for mercy on Barristan's white cloak, Sansa enables that garment to be symbolically invested with the honour and ideals that Barristan would have spent his life trying to fulfill, but sadly falling short when expected to stand by and watch the madness of the men he served go unchecked. The joke may have brought him some humiliation, yet in ending his tenure with the Lannisters as a naked knight, Barristan has the opportunity to reestablish his own personal sense of honour and duty. As a non-knight replacing the naked knight, Sandor begins his service by challenging the long-held and meaningless codes of the institution; further, even though he is expected to obey and serve his king in everything he does, he begins by displaying kindness and compassion to Sansa when she is ordered to attend Joffrey in court. Perhaps it is significant that instead of the white cloak of his Kingsguard brothers, Sandor is wearing a plain brown doublet and green mantle in that scene.

This is another similarity he has with the other soiled Kingsguard, Jaime, in that he never wears white as the rest of the brotherhood do: no white clothes, no white armour, and even wearing the white cloak looks more like an afterthought in him. Sansa notes ahead in ACOK how "unnatural" the white cloak looks in him, made to stand out more by the fact that he wears dark and discreet colours of roughspun fabric, contrasting with the finery of someone like Oakheart or the brutal Meryn and Boros, who dress like saintly doves yet are so the opposite. Jaime has his own version of Sandor's habit: in contraposition he is flashy and dresses cockily like some gaudy bird with his golden armour and Lannister silks, and that also makes the white cloak look like it shouldn't be there on his shoulders. It's intriguing that likewise he thinks that he should've tossed the accursed white cape when he finally decided to throw his vows out the window and kill Aerys, again another point of coincidence for our knights.

Excellent catch!

It ties up nicely with our discussion about Sandor following an older ideal of knighthood. It is interesting that the loyalty (a positive quality) that is a source of honour for House Clegane is horribly corrupt by Tywin and the "noble" institution of the Kingsguard.

Precisely! To complement our little discussion on older ideals of knighthood, you as Medievalist know that there's a broad range of examples of oaths of fealty and knightly vows across countries, with the wording sometimes being so different as to include certain requirements in one that are absent in the others, and so on. That is, the "ribbons" preferred can vary, but if there's one component that's constant and never absent in all, it's loyalty. It's a very old ideal that's found even as part of family words, like the Loyaulté me lie motto. The Lannisters do want loyalty like any sensible feudal House and do reward it, but where they fail, and fail horribly, is that they don't have a way to foster it that doesn't involve material gain: "A Lannister always pays his debts" won't work well for those whose needs aren't of that sort.

[brashcandy]

<snip>

The Lannisters do want loyalty like any sensible feudal House and do reward it, but where they fail, and fail horribly, is that they don't have a way to foster it that doesn't involve material gain: "A Lannister always pays his debts" won't work well for those whose needs aren't of that sort.

Reminiscent of Littlefinger's "when you know what a man wants, you know how to move him," which is all fine and good if you actually know what it is that man wants. When he bet against Sandor on the reasoning that a dog wouldn't bite the hand that fed it, Littlefinger wasn't accounting for the fact that the nourishment provided by the Lannisters might not have been what the Hound actually needed. He later will reveal to Ned his belief that all Sandor lives for is to kill Gregor, while we see that such a desire is not as straightforward as it might appear and is more of a compulsive mechanism of the devastating trauma he suffered at his brother's hands. What Sandor wanted, removed from the violence and cynicism that has structured his life, is nothing that LF could have ever fathomed, or entertained the possibility that he might actually get a chance to pursue it.

[followthearrows]

Concerning Sandor's diplomacy and pretending skills, and the apparent contradiction it seems to pose with regard to his outward claims to loathe lies and liars, my take has never been that there's a contradiction necessarily. As I see it, his affirmations about lies and liars don't translate as "no lying at all" under no circumstances but rather he's referring to hypocrisy and falsehood as behaviour, personality trait and way of interacting. There's being a hypocrite and disloyal and false for self-serving purposes, like Littlefinger, for example, or all those knights and courtiers who hide their true colours and pretend to be what they aren't for gain, and this is what he absolutely hates, the kind of lying he can't stand. And then there's circumstances when you have to tell an untruth for a good reason, like for self-preservation, to avoid conflict, to protect someone, to help . . . and that's the sort of lies he doesn't have a problem with essentially and understands, that he himself does engage in, like in this chapter. This is "the lies we tell for love" and "lies not without honour" that The Ned referred to, that are almost necessary to navigate society, more so one like King's Landing and the realm at large. If he had an issue with lies per se regardless of context, he'd not have told Sansa to use her politeness and pretending skills for her own good.

I think this is right on the nose. I don't think Sandor is contradictory in the pretending/lies he tells for protection of himself or others. He seems to be holding himself to his own sort of code that circles around truth in identity. To wear a mask of uprightness when one's true "face" is evil/corrupt, that's the kind of lie he cannot abide. No small wonder, given his experience with his brother.

If you flip that around, the scarred, repulsive face he presents to the world, the low regard of his worthiness to serve on the KG, the fact that he does not look the part refusing to wear the shining white and gold KG armor- these aren't a mask, but his true "face". Nevertheless, in a place steeped in artifice and subterfuge, his true face serves the same function. He hides in plain sight and he's teaching Sansa to do the same.

[OldGimletEye]

Another terrific essay Milady. As you pointed out the raison d'etre of the KG is loyalty to the king. So it's a bit ironic that upon Sandor's appointment to the KG his loyalty had already began to shift to Sansa, isn't it? I think the theme of Oaths versus love or Oaths versus acting ethically is one of the most interesting themes in the series. So, I really enjoyed this essay.

It makes you wonder how savvy he actually is at diplomacy, lying and pretending, even though he claims to hate liars. He's shown time and time again that even though he claims to despise liars, he is very adept at lying himself and can do so very quickly and nimbly, helped along further by the fact that everyone seems to regard him as a thick brute with a brain inversely proportional to his muscles. At a guess, he must be pretty good at sounding out Cersei and Joffrey after having spent years in their company, and I imagine a youth spent trying very hard not to offend crazy, murderous Gregor probably assisted him too.

Yes, that's pretty interesting isn't it? I have no doubt that Sandor generally hates dishonesty and phoniness, but he is pretty good at lying when he has to be. My impression of Sandor is that while he may not be scholarly like Aemon or Sam, he isn't a dummy. I think he is probably pretty observant and can sniff out bs pretty quickly. Sandor might have a few useful skills other than fighting.

Jon VIII is one of the chapters listed for our consideration due to one mention of the Hound contained there, but it's noteworthy just how much the entire chapter is relevant for the discussion on vows and love vs. duty that your analysis highlights. First, there's irony in Mormont's reference to Sandor:

"... they gave his place to that black dog Clegane..."

I forgot about this. Awesome catch. Jorah Mormont probably has no idea that Sandor wouldn't take being called a "dog" as an insult. He says he likes dogs better than knights and I think he means it. I'd like to know if Mormont has any idea how Sandor's grandfather became a landed knight. Three dogs died protecting Tytos Lannister and I think Sandor probably sees some honor in that sacrifice.

Although Tywin's quote about Sandor is a criticism it also connects him with the direwolves which are positive figures for the Starks. As a result, it could possibly be another hint pointing at Sandor replacing Lady. The quote also highlights the differences between Starks and Lannisters when it comes to their retainers: unlike the Lannisters, this generation of Starks don't seem to mind eating with them. Another hint at a possible future in the North for Sandor?

Possibly so. Just to add, remember when Sandor says to Arya "Leave him for the wolves and wild dogs. Your brothers and mine."

Concerning Sandor's diplomacy and pretending skills, and the apparent contradiction it seems to pose with regard to his outward claims to loathe lies and liars, my take has never been that there's a contradiction necessarily. As I see it, his affirmations about lies and liars don't translate as "no lying at all" under no circumstances but rather he's referring to hypocrisy and falsehood as behaviour, personality trait and way of interacting. There's being a hypocrite and disloyal and false for self-serving purposes, like Littlefinger, for example, or all those knights and courtiers who hide their true colours and pretend to be what they aren't for gain, and this is what he absolutely hates, the kind of lying he can't stand. And then there's circumstances when you have to tell an untruth for a good reason, like for self-preservation, to avoid conflict, to protect someone, to help . . . and that's the sort of lies he doesn't have a problem with essentially and understands, that he himself does engage in, like in this chapter. This is "the lies we tell for love" and "lies not without honour" that The Ned referred to, that are almost necessary to navigate society, more so one like King's Landing and the realm at large. If he had an issue with lies per se regardless of context, he'd not have told Sansa to use her politeness and pretending skills for her own good.

I was going to expand a bit more on Sandor's relationship with lying, given his general disdain for dishonesty, but I see you have it covered. I agree with all of this.

Reminiscent of Littlefinger's "when you know what a man wants, you know how to move him," which is all fine and good if you actually know what it is that man wants. When he bet against Sandor on the reasoning that a dog wouldn't bite the hand that fed it, Littlefinger wasn't accounting for the fact that the nourishment provided by the Lannisters might not have been what the Hound actually needed. He later will reveal to Ned his belief that all Sandor lives for is to kill Gregor, while we see that such a desire is not as straightforward as it might appear and is more of a compulsive mechanism of the devastating trauma he suffered at his brother's hands. What Sandor wanted, removed from the violence and cynicism that has structured his life, is nothing that LF could have ever fathomed, or entertained the possibility that he might actually get a chance to pursue it.

You know, when I first encountered Sandor's character, I thought he was pretty much nothing but a hardened pragmatist. But, he really isn't is he? Not at all times at least. That whole Robb needs me thing, LOL. I think at times even Sandor gets his head full of songs, not that's a bad thing. And I think it's interesting that you've highlighted that LF has no idea what really motivates Sandor, given LF really prides himself on understanding people's motivations. LF would never see Sandor coming would he? Perhaps LF betting against Sandor in GOT will end up meaning something later.

[Lyanna Stark]

You know, when I first encountered Sandor's character, I thought he was pretty much nothing but a hardened pragmatist. But, he really isn't is he? Not at all times at least. That whole Robb needs me thing, LOL. I think at times even Sandor gets his head full of songs, not that's a bad thing. And I think it's interesting that you've highlighted that LF has no idea what really motivates Sandor, given LF really prides himself on understanding people's motivations. LF would never see Sandor coming would he? Perhaps LF betting against Sandor in GOT will end up meaning something later.

Oh, I think compared to most characters Sandor definitely has his head full of songs. Given how many times he asks Sansa to sing and then bleats to Arya about it, he seems the most music-loving man in Westeros after Rhaegar Targaryen (unlike Tyrion "My wife doesn't need any more songs" Lannister and Petyr "Life is not a song, sweetling" Baelish). I have some thoughts on that as well, but I will save them to not get ahead of the re-read. :)

I agree with your (and other's) view on Littlefinger here as someone who talks a lot about how clever he is and how he knows what motivates people, but he often misjudges the more "humble" pieces, for all his talk of pawns and sheep. Further, in the "naked knight" segment, we also see Littlefinger as the one making the quip to humiliate Ser Barristan. One has to wonder if LF was indeed aware of how badly dismissing Ser Barry and elevating the Hound would look for the Joffrey/Cersei reign. Tywin and Mormont are both in complete agreement on that dismissing Barry was a huge mistake, but did Littlefinger share this sentiment, or did he simply not care? Even if it's most likely Joffrey and Cersei as the main instigators behind Sandor being offered the position, Joffrey does mention the Council as well, of which Littlefinger is a member. Perhaps LF was in favour of it as it would cause more chaos and havoc which he could later profit from.

Further, I think there is a trend here with regards to Sandor and how people in Westeros view him. While he is certainly no model of knightly honour, we've seen quite a few times already that he has his own personal code of honour and that there seem to be things he will not do. Later on in ASOS we also seem him being accused of Gregor's crimes. I wonder to what degree people lump the Clegane brothers together and see them as the same? Tywin seems to view Sandor the same as Gregor, as someone you "feed under the table" but don't sit at the table. The BWB definitely seem to lump them together as one entity when Sandor gets tarnished by Gregor's actions. It seems the commoners also hears rumuors about Sandor (also mentioned later on by the EB) that makes you wonder if some of those atrocities should not be correctly laid at Gregor's feet, not Sandor's. Perhaps a bit premature to consider, but something to keep in mind for later?

[Gambolpuddy]

I wanted to emerge from the shadows and thank those who created and contribute to this project. It’s been a delightful and elucidating read so far.

I completed a Sandor Clegane re-read a few months ago, and even had designs on creating a thread here about it, but life got in the way (or my output failed to match my ambitions), and that never happened, but I’d love to try to contribute something to this discussion, if can manage to find an original thought somewhere...

Would it be remiss if I were to bring up an observation regarding some of the situations discussed much earlier in the thread (apologies for being late to the party)?

For now I would only like to add that in my reread I noticed a major consequence of the Hound breaking down Jeyne’s door (rescuing her?), was that in her hysteria and ravings, Jeyne further revealed to Sansa the atrocities committed against her family, possibly another warning to Sansa about the dangers she faces in the capital at the hands of her beautiful captors, from which she would otherwise have been insulated locked away in that room for days. I don’t know if it was Sandor’s intention or even his actions that brought Jeyne to stay with Sansa for a time, but it did seem possible to me that it was another way for him to make matters and dangers clearer to Sansa.

Thanks again to all and I hope I can be of some value in your analysis or enjoyment at some point as you all have been to mine.

[brashcandy]

I forgot about this. Awesome catch. Jorah Mormant probably has no idea that Sandor wouldn't take being called a "dog" as an insult. He says he likes dogs better than knights and I think he means it. I'd like to know if Mormont has any idea how Sandor's grandfather became a landed knight. Three dogs died protecting Tytos Lannister and I think Sandor probably sees some honor in that sacrifice.

Yeah, as it concerns the identity theme, it's interesting how the "black dog" is a symbol of pride and sacrifice for Sandor whilst others use it to insinuate he's a man without honour. There's a parallel in this to what Aemon tells Jon about the NW and ravens:

“Doves and pigeons can also be trained to carry messages,” the maester went on, “though the raven is a stronger flyer, larger, bolder, far more clever, better able to defend itself against hawks … yet ravens are black, and they eat the dead, so some godly men abhor them. Baelor the Blessed tried to replace all the ravens with doves, did you know?” The maester turned his white eyes on Jon, smiling. “The Night’s Watch prefers ravens.”

Jon’s fingers were in the bucket, blood up to the wrist. “Dywen says the wildlings call us crows,” he said uncertainly.

“The crow is the raven’s poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood.”

I'm also musing on all this further foreshadowing Sandor's role in the greater issues that will be facing Westeros with the return of the Others and the "winter is coming" theme, which Bran's dream has already prefigured. Jon VIII is following the wight attack on Mormont, and he's even suffering with a burned hand for his efforts in saving the Commander's life. Suffice to say, the entire chapter contains imagery and themes that are applicable to Sandor.

Thanks again to all and I hope I can be of some value in your analysis or enjoyment at some point as you all have been to mine.

Welcome to the thread, Gambolpuddy! Please feel free to discuss anything from previous chapters we've covered; we're going to be wrapping up AGOT next week, so it's all still fair game for analysis :)

[Milady of York]

Yes, that's pretty interesting isn't it? I have no doubt that Sandor generally hates dishonesty and phoniness, but he is pretty good at lying when he has to be. My impression of Sandor is that while he may not be scholarly like Aemon or Sam, he isn't a dummy. I think he is probably pretty observant and can sniff out bs pretty quickly. Sandor might have a few useful skills other than fighting.

Thank you, OGE!

Perhaps due to my training, I tend to not share the widespread notion that scholarliness and bookishness equal intelligence by necessity, or, more clearly that only by these standards can intelligence be measured, because I believe it's quite restrictive and doesn't adjust to the reality that inteliigence is a quality that manifests itself in several types. There's spatial, linguistic, mathematical, musical, logical, intra and interpersonal, kinesthetic . . . and so on. Many people fall short of the bookish/academic standard, but are incredibly proficient in other areas, and if we were to hold them to that standard, there'd be so many musicians, dancers, athletes, army commanders, painters, actors, etc., that couldn't be formally considered geniuses as their performance and output demonstrates because they're not scholarly at all and some even have stories of academic failure. For that reason, I am inclined to avoid measuring the ASOIAF characters by comparison to the outstanding brains like Maester Aemon, Sam or The Reader, and find it more enlightening to assess their own assets in isolation, and because of that I consider some characters that wouldn't normally be viewed so as actually intelligent.

Army commanders are one of those professional groups that don't regularly pop up in lists of smart people, save for perhaps those who's the best? discussions, yet amongst them we have names like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Hannibal Barca, Napoleon, Erwin Rommel, Erich von Manstein, and many others that actually were remarkably genial in their areas. It was this and a wish to understand that fighting doesn't only require of physicality but also your brains that I started to write some essays on Sandor as a commander and as a swordsman, guided partially by a military historian friend who's also a re-enactor and who demolished all my inaccurate notions on war and strategy, showed me how the best Roman centurions and Medieval knights were the best not just because of brute force, showed me how they train and taught me the importance of tactics, why "the best generals" were the best, essentially, not based on battles they won or lost but on how. That resulted in a new appreciation, too. Ser Barry Selmy, the Dragonknight, Lord Cregan, Jaime, Sandor . . . all are the best in what they do, and that has required hard work physically and mentally, and from that angle, it's just fair to say they're intelligent even if they're not "well-read."

Oh, I think compared to most characters Sandor definitely has his head full of songs. Given how many times he asks Sansa to sing and then bleats to Arya about it, he seems the most music-loving man in Westeros after Rhaegar Targaryen (unlike Tyrion "My wife doesn't need any more songs" Lannister and Petyr "Life is not a song, sweetling" Baelish). I have some thoughts on that as well, but I will save them to not get ahead of the re-read. :)

I agree with your (and other's) view on Littlefinger here as someone who talks a lot about how clever he is and how he knows what motivates people, but he often misjudges the more "humble" pieces, for all his talk of pawns and sheep. Further, in the "naked knight" segment, we also see Littlefinger as the one making the quip to humiliate Ser Barristan. One has to wonder if LF was indeed aware of how badly dismissing Ser Barry and elevating the Hound would look for the Joffrey/Cersei reign. Tywin and Mormont are both in complete agreement on that dismissing Barry was a huge mistake, but did Littlefinger share this sentiment, or did he simply not care? Even if it's most likely Joffrey and Cersei as the main instigators behind Sandor being offered the position, Joffrey does mention the Council as well, of which Littlefinger is a member. Perhaps LF was in favour of it as it would cause more chaos and havoc which he could later profit from.

Hard to know for sure what the Mockingbird would've been thinking, as he never comments on this, which would tell that he really didn't care. Musing on the circumstances a bit, what seems to have mattered to him was Selmy, not who replaced him. That he was the one to initiate the mockery of Ser Barry and then brought up the topic of needing a new Kingsguard makes me think he was in favour of the appointment but possibly because he really was irked by Selmy, whom he had gratuitously insulted in the presence of Ned calling his wits dull but his blade nimble. Sandor was a non-factor to him, therefore, as he'd only be one more White Sword of no consequence, and what Littlefinger wanted was to get rid of Selmy, as the Kingsguard without a Lord Commander would be less of a bother in whatever schemes he had at that point. Besides, since this was Joffrey's most cherished wish, even if he'd not been in agreement, it would not have been possible to dissuade the king, as it's noted that when he had his sights set on something, not even his mother could make him change his mind, much less the Council.

[OldGimletEye]

Thank you, OGE!

Perhaps due to my training, I tend to not share the widespread notion that scholarliness and bookishness equal intelligence by necessity, or, more clearly that only by these standards can intelligence be measured, because I believe it's quite restrictive and doesn't adjust to the reality that inteliigence is a quality that manifests itself in several types. There's spatial, linguistic, mathematical, musical, logical, intra and interpersonal, kinesthetic . . . and so on. Many people fall short of the bookish/academic standard, but are incredibly proficient in other areas, and if we were to hold them to that standard, there'd be so many musicians, dancers, athletes, army commanders, painters, actors, etc., that couldn't be formally considered geniuses as their performance and output demonstrates because they're not scholarly at all and some even have stories of academic failure. For that reason, I am inclined to avoid measuring the ASOIAF characters by comparison to the outstanding brains like Maester Aemon, Sam or The Reader, and find it more enlightening to assess their own assets in isolation, and because of that I consider some characters that wouldn't normally be viewed so as actually intelligent.

Army commanders are one of those professional groups that don't regularly pop up in lists of smart people, save for perhaps those who's the best? discussions, yet amongst them we have names like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Hannibal Barca, Napoleon, Erwin Rommel, Erich von Manstein, and many others that actually were remarkably genial in their areas. It was this and a wish to understand that fighting doesn't only require of physicality but also your brains that I started to write some essays on Sandor as a commander and as a swordsman, guided partially by a military historian friend who's also a re-enactor and who demolished all my inaccurate notions on war and strategy, showed me how the best Roman centurions and Medieval knights were the best not just because of brute force, showed me how they train and taught me the importance of tactics, why "the best generals" were the best, essentially, not based on battles they won or lost but on how. That resulted in a new appreciation, too. Ser Barry Selmy, the Dragonknight, Lord Cregan, Jaime, Sandor . . . all are the best in what they do, and that has required hard work physically and mentally, and from that angle, it's just fair to say they're intelligent even if they're not "well-read."

Yeah, I agree with what you are getting at here. My point about Sandor was very crudely stated. I should have just said that Sandor wasn't a simple meathead and should have given my reasoning, rather than making some round about point that because he wasn't scholarly that didn't mean he was in fact a meathead.

[DogLover]

ANALYSIS

THE KING, HIS QUEEN AND HIS BEST (NON-) KNIGHT

In the classic tales of chivalry of the Arthurian cycle and derivations, there’s always one man that rises to become the greatest knight in court and a beloved of both king and peers, whose great deeds include fighting with giants, brigands, dragons, sorcerers, green-eyed courtiers and various assortment of baddies. And, of course, he’ll often be the Chosen One when the time comes to guard his lady queen and champion her against the Malegaunts, Mordreds, Morholts, Morgils . . .

<snip>

Internet at last (albeit briefly, as I'm in nomadic mode, so just a few quick comments for now).

Just a fantastic analysis, Milady! I really enjoyed it!

That tells us what sort of oath Sandor took when he joined the Kingsguard: the same one that Jon Snow and all other Black Brothers took. Poignantly enough, it’s not having a wife the first forfeiture mentioned, also the first that Uncle Benjen mentions to his nephew when he wants to go to the Wall. Sandor, the least ambitious nobleman of the power-hungry and overbearing Lannisters together with Jaime, talks of lands and titles only twice and both times in the context of a woman: here, by pointing out that he’s giving up on any chance of ever marrying, he highlights what matters to him in relation to possessions: a woman and, by extension, a family with her, and later when he talks of the King in the North granting him a lordship, his constant babbling about his hostage’s sister makes it plain that his motivation is again a woman. Similarly, Jaime has this “Bugger Casterly Rock, I want Cersei” attitude to lands and titles that later is updated to “Bugger the Iron Throne, I want Cersei,” thus also making it clear that he doesn’t value possessions by themselves over the woman and what she brings to him.

Great analysis of what's really important to Sandor, and I love the comparison to Jaime. This really shines light on a future conversation Sandor will have with Sansa. ;)

Joffrey’s garde de corps was not an exception: Mandon Moore and Osmund Kettleblack are of dubious loyalty to the king, just to name a pair of conspicuous cases. And amongst all those men, Sandor is the one whose loyalty nobody suspects for an instant, least of all the prickly Lannisters themselves; it’s the quality that defines him, that makes him be appreciated by his superiors and despised by outsiders, the quality that dissuades every game-player from Varys to Littlefinger to Tyrion from even contemplating the madness of trying to bribe him somehow. In this regard, Sandor does fit the ideal of the royal bodyguard as conceived in its origins, and that he’s no knight just once more elevates him above the others, who are knights but don’t possess this sort of personal honour. It also makes the fact that he forsook his loyalty to the king and regent for the sake of a mistreated girl all the more notable.

Considering Sandor could easily exploit his position for material, and even sexual (seduced for information), gain, but it's unfathomable that he ever would certainly underscores his loyalty and honor, as well as lack of interest in material possessions and power games, practically an anomaly in King's Landing. Slaves and servants close to rulers (I'm specifically thinking of the Roman Emperor) were/are able to enrich themselves by selling information, even information as innocuous as the current mood of the "insert ruler/powerful person here." So, while his acts of disloyalty for absolutely no personal gain and only for Sansa's sake may initially appear minor, are actually quite significant, as you noted.

Back to his entrance to the Kingsguard, Sandor steps in for Ser Barristan Selmy, and that’s some big shoes to step in, for the Bold is admired and loved by everyone for his feats whilst Sandor is reviled for his association to an infamous family and his reputation. Selmy brings in the baggage of a glorious reputation that reflects well on whoever he’s serving, and Sandor brings in the contrary. Of Selmy, songs are sung and tales are told that are heard even in the North. But for Sandor, outside of the castle rumours have him killing Sansa and Arya in cold-blood, when the reality is that he’s saved Sansa and “Arya” (Jeyne), and that gives a taste of what sort of stuff is repeated in taverns and towns about him, what those terrible deeds were that those villagers in the remote Vale and the monk of the Quiet Isle heard before meeting him: likely wild and untrue, but for the most part believed because . . . it’s the Hound, after all.

Further, I think there is a trend here with regards to Sandor and how people in Westeros view him. While he is certainly no model of knightly honour, we've seen quite a few times already that he has his own personal code of honour and that there seem to be things he will not do. Later on in ASOS we also seem him being accused of Gregor's crimes. I wonder to what degree people lump the Clegane brothers together and see them as the same? Tywin seems to view Sandor the same as Gregor, as someone you "feed under the table" but don't sit at the table. The BWB definitely seem to lump them together as one entity when Sandor gets tarnished by Gregor's actions. It seems the commoners also hears rumuors about Sandor (also mentioned later on by the EB) that makes you wonder if some of those atrocities should not be correctly laid at Gregor's feet, not Sandor's. Perhaps a bit premature to consider, but something to keep in mind for later?

I had forgotten about that tavern rumor, and after reading it, I had the exact same thoughts, Lyanna: just how much of Gregor's crimes and reputation are unfairly ascribed to Sandor, just as we see in the mockery of a trial? Definitely worth exploring in the future.

[Elba the Intoner]

Wow, lots of good stuff to catch up on!

I really like your take on this, Elba. I've wondered about Sandor's thoughts on inheriting his family's land and why he didn't take any action in relation to them. I assumed he just let it go by because it was Ned's actions that granted him ownership. Sandor would have certainly been aware that Ned wasn't the most politically astute guy in town, and he would have been privy to Cersei's planned take-down of Ned, so why bother pressing a claim made available to him by a Hand who wasn't going to be in office much longer? Your interpretation makes this so much more heartbreaking.

Hey Starbird! Great to see you on here. I'm glad you liked my thoughts on Ned as a pseudo father figure for Sandor because it's something I have been thinking a lot about lately. I would never have thought of this before until some of the earlier comments in this reread placed such focus on how there was an added layer of betrayal to Sandor when he got his burns in that his father didn't support him or do anything to punish Gregor and Ned's pronouncement, and this betrayal by his own father is even worse psychologically. Even if it turned out not to be legal in the end, Ned's pronouncement against Gregor was the first time we have seen someone attempt to punish Gregor or bring him to justice. I think we are going to get glimpses of how this subconsciously deeply affected Sandor because later on at his "deathbed" confession to Arya, watching them kill Ned seems to be the other big item besides not saving Sansa that really bothers him.

As for the theme of fatherhood in Sandor's arc, as others have mentioned I think there is a lot more to it than first meets the eye too. Sandor was more of a father figure to Joff than Robert was (or Jaime he biological father) and it makes me wonder that Joff seems to go more and more off the rails as Sandor moves further away from him. I never noticed it before because it's also so closely tied to when Joff becomes King so he is no longer restrained the way he was when Robert was alive, but I wonder if there is a more subtle reason due to Sandor slowly shifting his allegiance from Joff.

ANALYSIS

THE KING, HIS QUEEN AND HIS BEST (NON-) KNIGHT

In the classic tales of chivalry of the Arthurian cycle and derivations, there’s always one man that rises to become the greatest knight in court and a beloved of both king and peers, whose great deeds include fighting with giants, brigands, dragons, sorcerers, green-eyed courtiers and various assortment of baddies. And, of course, he’ll often be the Chosen One when the time comes to guard his lady queen and champion her against the Malegaunts, Mordreds, Morholts, Morgils . . .

These brave knights frequently earn the love of the queen, of the chaste and unchaste sort both, and when it’s of the latter kind the wrongness of a romantic attachment to her is underscored not only because of the enormity that high treason means for a knight’s repute but also because, to add insult to injury, the king is often a good man. The betrayal of Lancelot and Guinevere is made to look even more evil by the fact that King Arthur is a great king, a decent husband and an admired man. Tristan and Isolde’s treacherous love looks even more disastrous and tragic because King Mark is a good if dull king, a well-meaning and affectionate foster father, and a benevolent man. Whatever flaws the kings may have, they’re no bigger than those of any other human being; whatever severe measures they may take, it’s driven by the lovers’ acts.

In contrast to these courtly love stories, we have Martin’s subversions of the Arthurian romances: there are no literal monsters to fight and the enemy is within. Aemon and Naerys had Aegon the Unworthy, Jaime and Rhaella had Aerys the Mad King, Jaime and Cersei had Robert, and Sandor and Sansa have Joffrey. That’s one of two salient differences: that the challenge for the knight comes from his own king first and foremost, which is just as big and difficult a test of loyalty and chivalry for the knight, but doesn’t pose the same moral dilemmas as betraying a good king. The other distinction is the nature of the attachment to the queen, because in the old Round Table tales it’s romantic love regardless of consummation, but that’s not always present in GRRM’s versions: Aemon/Naerys are doomed lovers in the songs and popular Westerosi culture, but not in the histories told in TWOIAF; and the Jaime/Rhaella relationship had not a whiff of romance. That leaves only Jaime/Cersei and Sandor/Sansa as the unmistakable “illicit lovers” figures.

Much has already been discussed about the romance aspect of all king-queen-knight arcs mirroring the Arthurian ones, such as in these two examples. So this time the focus will be rather on knighthood, the all-encompassing theme in Sandor Clegane’s storyline, and how the values it is supposed to contain as well as personal honour codes are put to the test by the need for the knight to protect the queen.

[snipped for length]

Excellent analysis as usual Milady. I loved all the parallels with Jaime Barristan and even Jon. I have some more thoughts about this but I don't have time to delve into it at the moment. Darn real life! I'll be back with some more thoughts later.

[DogLover]

I wanted to emerge from the shadows and thank those who created and contribute to this project. It’s been a delightful and elucidating read so far.

I completed a Sandor Clegane re-read a few months ago, and even had designs on creating a thread here about it, but life got in the way (or my output failed to match my ambitions), and that never happened, but I’d love to try to contribute something to this discussion, if can manage to find an original thought somewhere...

Would it be remiss if I were to bring up an observation regarding some of the situations discussed much earlier in the thread (apologies for being late to the party)?

For now I would only like to add that in my reread I noticed a major consequence of the Hound breaking down Jeyne’s door (rescuing her?), was that in her hysteria and ravings, Jeyne further revealed to Sansa the atrocities committed against her family, possibly another warning to Sansa about the dangers she faces in the capital at the hands of her beautiful captors, from which she would otherwise have been insulated locked away in that room for days. I don’t know if it was Sandor’s intention or even his actions that brought Jeyne to stay with Sansa for a time, but it did seem possible to me that it was another way for him to make matters and dangers clearer to Sansa.

Thanks again to all and I hope I can be of some value in your analysis or enjoyment at some point as you all have been to mine.

Welcome, Gambolpuddy! By all means, please do share your observations!

Yes, that's pretty interesting isn't it? I have no doubt that Sandor generally hates dishonesty and phoniness, but he is pretty good at lying when he has to be. My impression of Sandor is that while he may not be scholarly like Aemon or Sam, he isn't a dummy. I think he is probably pretty observant and can sniff out bs pretty quickly. Sandor might have a few useful skills other than fighting.

Oh, I think compared to most characters Sandor definitely has his head full of songs. Given how many times he asks Sansa to sing and then bleats to Arya about it, he seems the most music-loving man in Westeros after Rhaegar Targaryen (unlike Tyrion "My wife doesn't need any more songs" Lannister and Petyr "Life is not a song, sweetling" Baelish). I have some thoughts on that as well, but I will save them to not get ahead of the re-read. :)

I agree with your (and other's) view on Littlefinger here as someone who talks a lot about how clever he is and how he knows what motivates people, but he often misjudges the more "humble" pieces, for all his talk of pawns and sheep. Further, in the "naked knight" segment, we also see Littlefinger as the one making the quip to humiliate Ser Barristan. One has to wonder if LF was indeed aware of how badly dismissing Ser Barry and elevating the Hound would look for the Joffrey/Cersei reign. Tywin and Mormont are both in complete agreement on that dismissing Barry was a huge mistake, but did Littlefinger share this sentiment, or did he simply not care? Even if it's most likely Joffrey and Cersei as the main instigators behind Sandor being offered the position, Joffrey does mention the Council as well, of which Littlefinger is a member. Perhaps LF was in favour of it as it would cause more chaos and havoc which he could later profit from.

Ha! Yes, the more the relationship between Sandor and Sansa develops, the more interest in songs does Sandor take. It demonstrates that not only does he appreciate her and her interests, but she has just as much influence on him as he on her as they challenge each other's worldview: the cynic and the idealist.

Agreed! Sandor is very intelligent. Not only is he a strategic thinker, otherwise he would never been elevated to status of commander, but he's very emotionally intelligent, demonstrated in how he connects with Sansa, the advice he gives her, and how he delicately handles Joffrey. He's a shrewd observer of character and situation, never undermining others. I find it interesting that he and Ned share the qualities of loyalty and honor, as Ned was as loyal to Robert as Sandor was to the Lannisters pre-Sansa, but, in contrast, Ned was woefully ignorant, disastrously undermining Cersei and stupidly trusting Littlefinger, just to point to two of his biggest blunders. I think that gives added meaning to Sansa backing into Sandor and mistaking him for Ned and Robert's comment about getting her a dog, she'll be happier for it.

[OldGimletEye]

Great analysis of what's really important to Sandor, and I love the comparison to Jaime. This really shines light on a future conversation Sandor will have with Sansa. ;)

Just to add more to this train of thought. When Sandor gets caught by the Mad Huntsman, he had about 9,000 or 10,000 Dragons in his pocket, probably making him very well off. He probably could have gone anywhere and then have started over. Why would anyone with that amount of money go to the war torn Riverlands? Hmm. A more practically minded man, concerned more about material comforts, might have decided that Lys, Pentos, Braavos, or Myr would have been a better choice.

[DogLover]

Just to add more to this train of thought. When Sandor gets caught by the Mad Huntsman, he had about 9,000 or 10,000 Dragons in his pocket, probably making him very well off. He probably could have gone anywhere and then have started over. Why would anyone with that amount of money go to the war torn Riverlands? Hmm. A more practically minded man, concerned more about material comforts, might have decided that Lys, Pentos, Braavos, or Myr would have been a better choice.

Exactly, OGE. And not does he only have money, but as a renowned warrior, he could have taken up service as a sellsword in Essos, at the very least. But he doesn't want to stray too far, does he? Milady wrote a fascinating essay regarding Sandor's psychological state and possible motivations during this time for the PtP project. Ah, but I get ahead.

[Ragnorak]

I wish I had! It's an embuggerance that I didn't. It's a word that's been in use in British English for as long as I have a memory, and it was Sir Terry of Discworld fame who popularised it.

...

Damn you Brits and your multisyllabic slang. Here syllables are too hard so we just use letters (They're easier to spell.) Aircon is an embuggerance so we just use AC.

Yes, Martin establishes the duty vs. love theme as a profoundly human predicament, one where there's no wrong or right, or black or white answer as Jon struggles to find during his conversation with Aemon when he insists that Ned would do the "right" thing. Ned chooses to forsake his honour in King's Landing and proclaim that Joff is the rightful king precisely because he is motivated by the love for his daughter, which in itself is an honourable act. On the point of Sansa keeping Sandor's cloak, it's worth noting that Sansa has never let a stain stand in the way of her still appreciating a garment's worth:

When the king’s herald moved forward, Sansa realized the moment was almost at hand. She smoothed down the cloth of her skirt nervously. She was dressed in mourning, as a sign of respect for the dead king, but she had taken special care to make herself beautiful. Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she’d had them dye it black and you couldn’t see the stain at all.

Here too we see the white to black motif reflected in Sansa's clothing, and if Sandor believes that wearing the white cloak has left an indelible moral stain, Martin suggests that it's always possible, if not to entirely remove the stain, to find a better purpose that leads to redemption and change.

I really like that take. It fits with Tyrion's first advice to Jon about arming yourself with who you are. It also fits with a lot of the loss of innocence imagery Martin uses and innocence is too often lost with stains and bloody hands in this series. Dany initially likes the heat of her bath because it makes her feel clean, yet by Meereen she is rather bothered by the heat and her baths only get her as clean as she was ever going to be. Some stains can't be cleansed. They must be accepted and incorporated which is one of the overarching aspects of Dany's story in DwD. I suppose a similar view could be taken of Sansa's Snow Winterfell scene:

White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.

Yet she stepped out all the same.

One can't walk on a pristine snowfall and not make a mess. We can't maintain the purity of our innocent world. Sansa steps out, makes her mess, shapes that world to her will by building a home amidst the mess and draws strength from it. As of the time we meet him, Sandor seems to have made the "stain" on his face a part of himself but still needs to come to grips with the stains on his cloak.

I'd like to take a closer look at Barristan since he is the Kingsguard knight Sandor is replacing. Selmy is the living embodiment of the white cloak. He is universally respected by his allies and foes as an honorable man, yet this provides his conscience with little solace as we'll see when we get his POV later. The ultimate act a member of the Kingsguard can perform is saving the king's life. Our bold Barristan did just this at Duskendale yet this is the very act for which he personally feels that he has blood on his hands. A very curious self assessment under Aemon's raven and dove umbrella.

Barristan is cast out and does not leave of his own volition as Sandor will later do, but both leave the service of a king seeking to serve a queen. Dany is odd in this Arthurian equation because as queen she is the primary regent unlike all of our other examples. Other Arthurian elements are present such as Dany having the illicit affair with Daario and Jorah the knight who pines for her, but I'll not follow those detours here. Hizdahr threatens Dany (whether he's the locust poisoner or the patsy doesn't matter) much like Aerys and Aegon the Unworthy threatened their queens. While these many Arthurian inversions in Dany are fascinating to play with, her being the primary regent means that she is the one setting the moral tone as a monarch. What is clear is that Barristan has a pride and satisfaction in serving her that he has never felt with any of his earlier kings.

Acting the perfect dove here allows Selmy to feel and be honorable, but that honor is Dany's not his own. After Dany vanishes, Barristan is left with a choice of returning to his prior patterns of blind obedience to the oath, or of joining an ethically murky plot that clearly violates at least the letter of the Kingsguard oath. Barristan's chapter titles summarize his arc and he starts off taking a similar bath to Dany's that gets him as clean as he had ever been. He is first again the Discarded Knight mimicking the end of his service in Kings Landing, then he is the Kingbreaker which seems a play on Jaime's curious Kingsguard hero Cristen Cole, the Kingmaker, who helped start the first Dance of the Dragons, and finally the Queen's Hand which seems to be Selmy's solution to his moral dilemma. In Dany's absence Barristan chooses to internalize her ideals and endeavor to preserve them rather than obey the letter of his oath to obey a man and watch her work become undone. (There's a bit of Cicero and the rule of law vs. rule of venal men in there.) He becomes her Hand acting in her stead to attempt to fulfill her wishes and ideals. In doing so he turns from the dove's path to the raven's and willing stains his cloak.

Barristan's path is not identical to Sandor's but is still of interest because the black dog Clegane replaces the white cloaked Selmy and Martin makes sure to highlight that through Mormont and Tywin. The similarity that strikes me as most significant is that both men experience a period of separation from their chosen queens in which they struggle with the ideals that have been inspired by the queen and internalize them. That doesn't happen until later and I don't want to jump too far ahead, but perhaps there are aspects of Barristan's story worth reflecting on as we continue to move forward.

[brashcandy]

Just to add more to this train of thought. When Sandor gets caught by the Mad Huntsman, he had about 9,000 or 10,000 Dragons in his pocket, probably making him very well off. He probably could have gone anywhere and then have started over. Why would anyone with that amount of money go to the war torn Riverlands? Hmm. A more practically minded man, concerned more about material comforts, might have decided that Lys, Pentos, Braavos, or Myr would have been a better choice.

Home and belonging is a very pertinent theme in Sandor's arc, and we're seeing the beginnings of it here when he's made KG yet is clearly more concerned with the family life it would mean he has to give up, even if that was only a wished for reality. This theme also intersects with that of identity, in Sandor as the loyal "dog" that truly wants a better master/mistress to serve. He may have found a refuge with the Lannisters in escaping from the savagery of Gregor, but it does not erase the fundamental displacement that's a feature of his arc, and helps to explain why simply packing up and leaving for another life isn't an available option for him, especially not after his experiences with Sansa.