The Will to Change: Rereading Sandor

[Lyanna Stark]

Sandor is clearly the answer to the prayer, not Dontos.

Yet she could not deny that the godswood had a certain power too. Especially by night. Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me…

Dontos is clearly no friend, but Sandor is. I would also like to tease you all and emphasize the last portion of that prayer: champion me.

Ah, you tease! :lol: Do you have any thoughts on what this could entail? "Send me a friend" caught my eye since I've been looking at my Randyll Tarly and "friends in the Reach" crackpot a bit lately. "friends.." here means allies, or even hidden allies, someone who is on your side. Which also fits with Sandor's shifting loyalties. While "champion me" makes me think of Ivanhoe. (Also not unusual since loads of things make me think of "Ivanhoe" and we do know the novel was an inspiration for the Tourney of Harrenhal in the year of the false spring.)

While Ned’s opinion of Sandor was low, Sandor was confidant Robb would accept him into his service, telling Arya if he had “his father’s sense of honor” he’d be a fool not to. Does Sandor realize how he’s perceived due to his association to both his brother and the Lannisters? He certainly was enraged when the BwB put him on trial for his brother’s crimes, understandably so since he spent his entire life distancing himself from his brother. But, apparently, the Lannister connection and the surname shared by both is too damning (and then tack on the Saltpans atrocities--the man can't get a break).

While Tywin does lump Gregor and Sandor together is some ways (dogs to do his bidding and know their place) I do think he realizes there’s a notable difference. Both are exceptional warriors, but Tywin uses them very differently, making use of Gregor’s viciousness while charging Sandor with guarding his daughter and grandson.

What is it Tywin says? "There's a tool for every task and a task for every tool"? Tywin is most likely aware of the fact that Gregor is a murderous brute, as evidenced by the Sack of Kings Landing, while Sandor is hiding away from his brother as it were, with the Lannisters. So Sandor is also dependant on Tywin et al for his employment and safe haven away from Gregor I'm sure Tywin is aware of that, although he seems to think of Sandor and Gregor as "dogs not to be fed at the table" so in that regard he is lumping them into the group "useful, but not highborn enough to pander to and in the end, very expendable". Kevan also seems to blame Cersei for the rumours of Sandor sacking Saltpans in a nice bit of blame shifting from Tywin.

A poor replacement: a literal monster to take the place of a loyal dog.

Yes indeed. It seems from the moment Cersei wrote Gregor and made him come to Kings Landing to fight Oberyn, she has tried to replace her "dog" Sandor with another dog, who the happens to be Gregor, which as we all seem to agree on is a poorer choice due to his monstrosity. At the end of ADWD and Cersei's Walk of Shame, Un-Gregor almost seems like her designated "friend" and "champion" though, which is a really freaky prospect.

[Ragnorak]

At first I thought it was a gift, then soon realized I had been cursed. :lol:

Great observations, all around, Ragnorak. I tended to assume LF was behind the protesters since a diversion was required for Sansa, but Varys as a possibility certainly deserves consideration.

I also love the prayer angle. I’ll have to go back and reread the relevant passages again, but it strikes a cord, especially since Sansa, whose faith was strong early in the series, begins to question the gods, even referring to them as cruel, despite answering her prayers in ways unexpected. In contrast, Sandor mocks the gods, denying their existence, but it’s he who ends up in a monastery of all places, as well as offered a second chance by R’hllor. Lots to explore here!

A poor replacement: a literal monster to take the place of a loyal dog.

LF as the orchestrator of the riot distraction fits and requires the least amount of speculation to fill in the blanks. I have this nagging sense that LF doesn't typically help his pawns by removing obstacles like this, but that's more my sense than something I can cite in the text beyond the lack of a plan to get her back from the godswood. LF cares little for Sansa's suffering and even seems to desire it to make her more desperate, but a severe beating might endanger his ability to keep the godswood as a meeting place.

Varys is a stretch in that it requires a good deal of off the page dot connecting. But LF offered himself as a marriage alternative for Sansa (which Varys would know of) and Varys seems to know that LF was behind Arryn's poisoning too. He would likely know about the Pycelle angle of Tyrion's trap (he stole a letter which a little bird could copy) and the LF Vale offer (that was spoken where little birds could hear.) The godswood invitation comes immediately after Tyrion's last piece of trap bait is set and Varys knowing about the note itself is easily plausible. LF's later anger at being played hints at the extent to which he started planning beyond just stealing Sansa. LF offers him what he eventually gets from Tywin and exploits for his current scheming. Cersei also knows about Sansa's "treasons in the godswood" so we can assume Varys has noted as he's the probable informer. So Varys has enough pieces to put together and wants LF to succeed in sowing more chaos so Aegon lands amidst instability. So not impossible, but hardly as simple as the LF explanation.

I'm partial to Bloodraven in my wishes if not my analysis. Sansa wants to go but is too afraid to confront the guards. The distraction comes almost an answer to a prayer and then she sees the notorious Bloodraven tomcat. It presents that feel when you know what to look for, but I don't see a reasonable way Bloodraven could have orchestrated a riot from his cave. Still the Bloodraven hints in this chapter are among the more blatant in the series.

Stealing Sandor from Cersei also fits with the Maggy the Frog theme.

A small observation to tie into your romance analysis:

Do you like wine, little bird? True wine? A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman.”

Technically the "Or a woman." line is ambiguous. It can be read as the alternative to all a man needs or read as all a man or a woman needs.

Ah, you tease! :lol: Do you have any thoughts on what this could entail? "Send me a friend" caught my eye since I've been looking at my Randyll Tarly and "friends in the Reach" crackpot a bit lately. "friends.." here means allies, or even hidden allies, someone who is on your side. Which also fits with Sandor's shifting loyalties. While "champion me" makes me think of Ivanhoe. (Also not unusual since loads of things make me think of "Ivanhoe" and we do know the novel was an inspiration for the Tourney of Harrenhal in the year of the false spring.)

...

I do have some thoughts actually. Tyrion's trial by combat in the Vale has a great deal of words dedicated to it and the statue of Alyssa Arryn plays prominently in the scene. Antime GRRM dedicates that many words to a scene it usually holds portents of things to come. Cat also recalls the LF/Brandon duel during the scene which parallels the present circumstances in the Vale. Since unCat seems to be a figure born of Alyssa's tears I think we'll see Lady Stoneheart and a trial by combat in the Vale. My current crackpot idea is that this will be the Trial by Seven and a better candidate for unGregor and Sandor to have it out than Cersei's trial which I suspect will never materialize. Figuring out the specifics has been hard, but if one rereads Tyrion's trial back in GoT the idea that it holds symbolic elements of a future trial involving an Alyssa Arryn figure is not really a stretch. Knowing what we know now, a Sandor making an appearance there wouldn't be improbable either.

Excellent observation, Ragnorak. I love your parallel between the original Clegane saving a Lannister from a lioness and the current head of the House fighting for a lioness against another member of the House. To that, I'd add that there is another creation/destruction pattern too for the family of the three black dogs: whilst the first man's actions against the lioness created House Clegane with him as the founding knight, the actions of the last man on behalf of the lioness destroyed House Clegane with him as the last knight.

The parallels between Sandor and his grandfather are striking on the whole, especially with regard to the final stages of his life, in which one detail stands out as following the very pattern we're discussing: the three hounds in the story died on a field of yellow grass one autumn year, and that sacrifice determined the rise of the House, and the Hound also "died" one autumn year under a tree with fallen dry leaves. Would that hint at a resurgence? His grandfather lost a leg but continued living, with a higher position and a better life, and Sandor got injured in the leg but got to live on at the monastery, where he can find some healing.

For some reason the "under a tree" line reminded me of Dunk's choosing his shield moment. Sandor had just defended a she-wolf from three of his brothers dogs which can be seen as an inversion of the creation story for his House. The acts of sacrifice he admires so much in his grandfather and wants to emulate also connect his own father to Gregor as Cersei's championas he was unwilling to sacrifice in order to protect and was also left defenseless against attacks by his own sigil.

[Elba the Intoner]

On Sandor and his similarities with the first men, it struck me that his line about how a dog will look you straight in the eye is similar to the first men's notion of justice that Ned follows, to look a man in the eye before he swings the sword.

[DogLover]

On Sandor and his similarities with the first men, it struck me that his line about how a dog will look you straight in the eye is similar to the first men's notion of justice that Ned follows, to look a man in the eye before he swings the sword.

Great observation, which differentiates Sandor from Gregor even more in that Gregor and his men raided the Riverlands disguised as brigands.

[Milady of York]

I do have some thoughts actually. Tyrion's trial by combat in the Vale has a great deal of words dedicated to it and the statue of Alyssa Arryn plays prominently in the scene. Antime GRRM dedicates that many words to a scene it usually holds portents of things to come. Cat also recalls the LF/Brandon duel during the scene which parallels the present circumstances in the Vale. Since unCat seems to be a figure born of Alyssa's tears I think we'll see Lady Stoneheart and a trial by combat in the Vale. My current crackpot idea is that this will be the Trial by Seven and a better candidate for unGregor and Sandor to have it out than Cersei's trial which I suspect will never materialize. Figuring out the specifics has been hard, but if one rereads Tyrion's trial back in GoT the idea that it holds symbolic elements of a future trial involving an Alyssa Arryn figure is not really a stretch. Knowing what we know now, a Sandor making an appearance there wouldn't be improbable either.

Regardless of whether Sandor eventually becomes her actual champion or not, your points remind me of something I've been thinking for a long while now: we've never really observed Sandor fighting in a duel at full capacity and top form, which is noteworthy as he's had three duels already, and we do know he's no stranger to hand-to-hand combat during tourneys as per Thoros' account. But look at how those confrontations happen: at the Hand's Tourney vs. Gregor, it's on impulse and mostly a defensive move, so even though at the time he's in top form for once, he isn't really "fighting" as merely blocking his brother's assaults, and it's all so brief, for Robert interrupts so quickly that we could suspect Martin wanted us to not know just how far Sandor could go, and he left us only with the suspicion that in a duel he is strong and skilled enough to withstand his brother without needing to dance round him like a ballerina a la Oberyn, yet the author doesn't let us be sure; in fact, there are some that are convinced Sandor couldn't fight his brother successfully and use this scene as "proof." And then, in his second duel, with Beric, he's drunk and underfed and if that wasn't enough, he's facing his worst nightmare, fire, whereas Beric is as fresh as a zombie can be and in top form for all we know swordsmanship-wise, and even so, he wins despite the disadvantage. Then in his last duel, he again is drunk, drunker than before, and again malnourished and in a depressive state, plus he has to fight two at a time whereas Polliver and the Tickler are in good form, yet he again wins despite the disadvantages. And we know he's superb with a weapon the times we've seen him really exerting himself: at the bread riots and the Battle of Blackwater, and battles have more risks and less probabilities of survival than duels, as there's no organisation and you can get attacked by many at a time. That would indicate he has to be really, really good in an individual duel when in top form and fighting for the win given that he can overcome the odds when he's not, but Martin sort of "pulls the reins in" on him, for lack of a better term, as if he intentionally doesn't want to show him at his best yet. Martin does something similar for another top-tier swordfighter, Jaime, whose only duel on-page has him underfed, weak and chained, yet he still gives Brienne (who's in top form) a hard time.

[CatherineLaw]

I was invited by Milady of York to do this write-up about the song of Florian and Jonquil that features so prominently in Sandor’s story and its possible inspiration in the medieval story of Floris and Blanchefleur. Having enjoyed the observations and discussions on this thread and the PtP long before, it makes me really happy to post this one. I hope you enjoy reading it.

He cupped her under the jaw, raising her chin, his fingers pinching her painfully. “And that’s more than little birds can do, isn’t it? I never got my song.”

“I… I know a song about Florian and Jonquil.”

“Florian and Jonquil? A fool and his cunt. Spare me. But one day I’ll have a song from you, whether you will it or no.”

“I will sing it for you gladly.”

Sandor Clegane snorted. “Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here… and every one better than you.”

(ACOK Sansa II)

Sandor’s childhood was far from ideal: a sister dead in strange circumstances, motherless, with an abusive brother and a father that would not protect him. However, he did have expectations for the future: he aspired to become a knight. He would be strong and honourable, and he would protect the weak and save himself. He’ll make his father proud and no one would ignore him then. Yet still something else came to happen, a turning point in his short life would change and scar him: Gregor and the brazier.

After that his dream of knighthood turned to loathing. The songs of heroes just foolish and dishonest, he mocks them.

In contrast, Sansa keeps the songs close to her heart and as recently as her last chapter from The Winds of Winter, she is using them as inspiration. Maybe because she has known what is to belong and be loved, she dares hope for better. And yet he asks for a song, not from a singer, not from anyone else, he wants a song from her and because of her. And Sansa is willing and chooses for him her very favourite.

Sansa who believed in a world of perfect and gallant knights, of virtuous and fair maidens, finds a protector in the man that most resents those concepts. They are a challenge for each other and a chance for them both to grow. Sandor offers her clues on how to survive in King’s Landing and covers for her, but more than that he offers her another point of view when her outlook in life is most shaken. He faces her with his own perspective and lets her pick whatever she likes. He tells her awful things to get something back and they clash and argue. Figuring each other and the world around them, both hurting and lonely. And he does so wanting them to be equal to agree or disagree without lies and control games.

While others hurry themselves around her to rip her apart from her family, sense of worth, self-esteem, identity, dreams… he tries to reach her with his own vulnerability and through the things that still give her hope. He proves to be her one true friend.

The first time the song of Florian and Jonquil is offered Sandor refuses it but still threatens to get a song from her. At her chambers the night of the Blackwater Battle he asks not for any song, but the one he has had the time to think about:

“I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.” He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. “Still can’t bear to look, can you?” she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. “I’ll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life.”

(ACOK Sansa VII)

As he already knew, she is not ready for that song and she sings the Mother’s Hymn instead. After that they part but the song of Florian and Jonquil clings to them and won’t release.

On the fifth Sansa chapter of A Storm of Swords, she escapes King’s Landing in a song worthy fashion with Florian’s story in the background.

Meanwhile, Sandor is travelling with Arya, taking every opportunity to mention her pretty sister and the song she sang for him.

Florian and Jonquil

He sang of Jonquil and Florian, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight and his love for his brother’s queen, of Nymeria’s ten thousand ships. They were beautiful songs, but terribly sad. Several of the women began to weep, and Sansa felt her own eyes growing moist. (ACOK)

Sansa describes the song as terribly sad. We know that Naerys and Aemon did not have the happiest of lives nor did Nymeria as she and her people suffered great hardship, but at least about Nymeria’s story we know it did not end all that bad. She became Princess of Dorne and married someone for love, succeeding in establishing the Principality of Dorne under House Martell. So the sadness of the song does not necessarily mean that it is a tragedy.

The fact is that Naerys story is so horrible because she was married to an abusive King and had to go through many miscarriages and stillbirths until she finally died in childbirth. And it was horrible for Aemon too, as he had to serve the King.

But does the song tell those things? Doubtfully. It’s more likely that the song tells a story about doomed lovers and highlights the chivalrous acts of the Dragonknight. And Nymeria’s song seemingly focuses on her struggles at sea. So the songs don’t need to be an accurate and complete retelling of the facts.

And the songs he chose . . . He sang of the Dance of the Dragons, of fair Jonquil and her fool, of Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies. He sang of betrayals, and murders most foul, of hanged men and bloody vengeance. He sang of grief and sadness. (AFFC Sansa I)

Here we can assume either of two things: that the descriptions apply to all of the three songs or that each description refers to one of the songs. They don’t necessarily need to correspond exactly but what we know of the Dance and what we know of Summerhall fits with the first and last descriptions.

At Maidenpool, Lord Mooton’s red salmon still flew above the castle on its hill, but the town walls were deserted, the gates smashed, half the homes and shops burned or plundered. They saw nothing living but a few feral dogs that went slinking away at the sound of their approach. The pool from which the town took its name, where legend said that Florian the Fool had first glimpsed Jonquil bathing with her sisters, was so choked with rotting corpses that the water had turned into a murky grey-green soup.

Jaime took one look and burst into song. “Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool . . .”

“What are you doing?” Brienne demanded.

“Singing. ‘Six Maids in a Pool,’ I’m sure you’ve heard it. And shy little maids they were, too. Rather like you. Though somewhat prettier, I’ll warrant.”

(ASOS Jaime III)

Maidenpool takes its name from the story of F&J. It has numerous inns, including one near the Fool’s Gate, and a tower: Jonquil’s Tower.

He thought back on all the songs he had heard, songs of blind Symeon Star-Eyes and noble Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redywne, and Florian the Fool. They had all won victories against foes far more terrible than any he would face. But they were great heroes, brave men of noble birth, except for Florian. And what am I? Dunk of Flea Bottom? Or Ser Duncan the Tall?

(The Hedge Knight)

Duncan mentions five of the greatest heroes that ever lived in Westeros: the Dragonknight and Ser Redwyne were members of the Kingsguard, knights. The other three were First Men. We know quite a bit from Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, posthumously remembered as a Kingsguard Member although in fact he lived way before knighthood came to Westeros, his greatest feats are defending Princess Daeryssa from giants and slaying a dragon. It’s quite similar to Florian’s story as we’ll see in a bit.

The most interesting part however is that he was haunted by the ghosts of all the “knights” he killed. Sounds like some other guy, right? The meanings of the names are also compelling: Daeryssa means “queenly” and Serwyn “friend at court”...

This morning the puppeteers were doing the tale of Florian and Jonquil. The fat Dornishwoman was working Florian in his armor made of motley, while the tall girl held Jonquil’s strings. “You are no knight,” she was saying as the puppet’s mouth moved up and down. “I know you. You are Florian the Fool.”

“I am, my lady,” the other puppet answered, kneeling. “As great a fool as ever lived, and as great a knight as well.”

“A fool and a knight?” said Jonquil. “I have never heard of such a thing.”

“Sweet lady,” said Florian, “all men are fools, and all men are knights, where women are concerned.”

It was a good show, sad and sweet both, with a sprightly swordfight at the end, and a nicely painted giant. When it was over, the fat woman went among the crowd to collect coins while the girl packed away the puppets.

Dunk collected Egg and went up to her.

“M’lord?” she said, with a sideways glance and a half-smile. She was a head shorter than he was, but still taller than any other girl he had ever seen.

“That was good,” Egg enthused. “I like how you make them move, Jonquil and the dragon and all. I saw a puppet show last year, but they moved all jerky. Yours are more smooth.”

“Thank you,” she told the boy politely.

Dunk said, “Your figures are well carved too. The dragon, especially. A fearsome beast. You make them yourself?”

(The Hedge Knight)

Sad and sweet, ends with a swordfight, there’s a giant and a dragon.

The story of Florian and Jonquil is mentioned together with that of the Dragonknight: twice in AGOT, twice in COK, twice in SOS, once in FFC and once in THK. I find it amusing that while Sansa’s favorite is F&J, Bran’s favorite story is Aemon the Dragonknight.

According to the World of Ice and Fire:

During the long centuries when the First Men reigned supreme in Westeros, countless petty kingdoms rose and fell in the riverlands. Their histories, entwined and embroidered with myth and song, are largely forgotten, save for the names of a few legendary kings and heroes whose deeds are recorded on weathered stones in runes whose meanings are even now disputed at the Citadel. Thus, whilst singers and storytellers may regale us with colorful tales of Artos the Strong, Florian the Fool, Nine-Finger Jack, Sharra the Witch Queen, and the Green Knight of the Gods Eye, the very existence of such personages must be questioned by the serious scholar. (p. 151)

So, Florian had First Men looks, he was not a knight and he was younger than Dontos, probably in his mid to late 20s.

“Florian was homely too, though not so old.” (ACOK Sansa II)

More gems from the World book:

Songs speak to us through the years of the Fall of Maidenpool and the death of its boy king, Florian the Brave, Fifth of that Name; … (p. 151)

Apparently, the Mootons were once kings in the Riverlands, and they named their sons and heirs after Florian… up to five times was a Mooton king named Florian.

Now, it’s usual for smallfolk to take the names of heroes and other notable personages but for kingly houses it is not that common. Usually, and particularly the heirs are named after an important member of the family that is held in high regard by the members of such family.

The name of the lowborn fool that romantically pursued a maid of your House is not the most suitable... Unless he happens to be your ancestor.

So, taking into account that Jonquil has been named as Florian’s cunt… and that the kings of House Mooton were named after him… we could theorise that the relationship was not only platonic and most certainly produced at least one child that became the ancestor of House Mooton.

Floire and Blanchefleur

Floris and Blanchefleur was one of the most popular stories in the Middle Ages, attested by the translations that appear all over Europe, from Scandinavia to the Iberian Peninsula.

A quick summary of the French aristocratic version:

At the court of the Moor king of Almeria two children are born on the same day. The awaited heir for the monarchs: Floire, and a girl to a Christian slave: Blanchefleur. The slave, whose husband or father (depends on the version) was slain by the King, is given the task to raise both babies.

At the age of 5, they are sent to be schooled together as Floire could not concentrate without BF. They spend the days studying, writing love verses to one another, reading Arabian tales and listening to singing birds in the gardens.

When they reach puberty and marriageable age, the King decides that Blanchefleur must be separated from Floire. As it is, Floire has refused from ever being apart from the girl, not studying unless she’s by his side and has his mind set on marrying no other woman but Blanchefleur.

The King who from the beginning believes the best solution is to kill Blanchefleur is persuaded by the Queen to spare her and send their son away, to her sister’s court in Montorio, where he shall be feasted and presented with lovely maidens. When Floire refuses to even look at the maidens and does not eat nor drink, his aunt informs the Queen of his state.

Once it’s clear to Floire that Blanchefleur won’t be sent to Montorio any time soon, he goes back to Almeria.

There his parents have prepared a tomb for Blanchefleur and tell him she’s dead. He swoons and then revives only to try to take his own life with a grafe¹. His mother saves him and runs to beg the King to tell Floire the truth so he doesn’t try to kill himself again.

The King confesses to having sold the maid to some merchants and Floire sets on to find her. The Queen gives Floire a magic ring that will protect its wearer from any harm.

Three times does he stop at an inn, where a host or hostess approaches him and tells him of a maid that looked much like him and had spent the night there with a group of merchants.

Thanks to that information Floire finally locates Blanchefleur in the Emir of Babylon’s Tower. He plays chess with the gatekeeper and earns his trust with gifts and wine (arbor gold anyone?) until the man is persuaded to his side and helps him in the tower, hidden inside a basket of flowers.

Once inside, he is discovered by Claris, another maid in the harem of the emir. She fetches Blanchefleur and the lovers are reunited. For a week or two the lovers stay abed, and Blanchefleur refuses to leave her chambers to meet the Emir. Claris covers for her, and tells the Emir every day that Blanchefleur was reading until late so she may learn how to please him... When he grows tired of the same response, the Emir enters Blanchefleur’s chamber. Once discovered the Emir wants to kill them but decides against it after seeing how in love the two are, as none of them wanted to put on the magic ring at the expense of the other. It was death what the Emir had been trying to avoid by marrying a new maiden every year. And seeing the two lovers willing to die for the other moved him so that he himself married them and knighted Floire. And not only that, but abandoned his previous behavior and married Claris for life, explaining how impressed he was by her courage to defend Blanchefleur and defy her master for the sake of her friend.

After some time, news of Floire’s father’s death reach Babylon and the now married couple returns to Spain to be crowned.

In some versions, Floire and Blanchefleur are the parents of Charlemagne’s mother Berthe.

It’s exceptional that no feat of arms happens in this story, only one time is a sword drawn when the Emir finds the lovers abed. Floire reaches Blanchefleur using tricks and stratagem instead of by pure force. He is only knighted at the end of the story and spends most of it, the quest part, disguised as a merchant.

But Floire is not alone in his quest; to aid him is his father’s advisor, the innkeepers and Daris, while Blanchefleur receives advice from Claris.

Notes:

1. In Floire et Blancheflor: A problem in text transmission, Murray McGillivray demonstrates that the instrument Floire used to kill himself was in fact a sort of stylus. It is stated in the French poem that it was Blaunchefleur gift to Floire, the pen with which they had written love letters to each other. Not a knife like in some other translations “as if little Whiteblossom were a kind of virago, who went around with knives and swords”.

Comparison between Floire and Blanchefleur and Florian and Jonquil

The first and most evident similarity lies in the titles of both tales. Four names relating to flora: Floire/Floris and Florian, interpreted as belonging to the flower or the flower itself. For the maidens: Blanchefleur or white flower, embodied in the poem through the white lily. The other a jonquil, a type of narcissus (also known as daffodil or Lent Lily in England), is native to the Iberian Peninsula but has spread to many other regions.

Coincidentally, it is in Spain where the action in Floire and Blanchefleur starts and ends, after some wandering.

Looking at flower symbolism, the white lily speaks of virginity, purity and majesty, it has a strong connection to the Virgin Mary and thus why it was chosen for Christian Blancheflor. Before that, Greek brides wore crowns of white lilies to symbolize purity.

The jonquil suggests returned affection, desire and sympathy. Unlike the lily, Greeks planted jonquils around tombs. Jonquils, through the Persephone myth, are a symbol of death and rebirth; daffodils grow in the banks of the river Styx in the Underworld and their bloom announces the coming of Spring on Earth.

The red rose, Floire’s flower, signifies love, respect, passion, desire, the feminine… As Ragnarok said in another topic: Red is anger and rage, wine, blood and fire.

In ASOIAF there is a red rose in Sansa’s story: the one she received from the Knight of Flowers on her father’s tourney, a tourney whose champion was also chosen by the Knight of Flowers. Strangely, Ser Loras may very well be the owner of some hideous burns as of now.

In Floire and Blanchefleur, the lilies are placed on Blanchefleur’s tomb and later on they are present in the Emir’s garden. With further descriptions Blanchefleur fake tomb and the garden in the Tower of maidens are almost identical, both are situations where Blanchefleur is supposed to die but is spared.

Shedding the vehicle and keeping the colors, we are left with a team that could very well be another take on Fire and Ice.

Red and white are in almost every description given in Floire and Blanchefleur: the trees in the gardens bear red or white flowers, Floire’s horse is half red and half white, the wine served is always red and white, etc.

In ASOIAF, red and white are deeply connected to Sandor’s arc through the Kingsguard cloak and to Sansa’s through the heart trees and the snow maiden imagery.

The Tower of Maidens in Floire and Blanchefleur is guarded by eunuchs, described as impossible to destruct or penetrate, the mightiest of the world…

The maidens of most stories must be rescued from towers, symbols of male desire, by gallant knights or princes. Blanchefleur is rescued from the Tower and from the threat of being wedded and raped by the Emir. Back on his lover arms, Prince Red Rose; a man whose symbol is most representative of female desire… her choice.

As if a tower was not clearly a phallic symbol, the Tower in F&B has a main pillar in the middle with a water circuit inside that brings water to the maidens from the magic well in the gardens… If an unchaste woman touches its waters they scream and turn red as blood, and then that woman is executed.

The pool from which the town took its name, where legend said that Florian the Fool had first glimpsed Jonquil bathing with her sisters, was so choked with rotting corpses that the water had turned into a murky grey-green soup.

Jaime took one look and burst into song. “Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool . . .” (ASOS Jaime III)

Sansa’s descent from the Red Keep walls saves her from death and the sexual predators in King’s Landing. But she ends trapped again when she goes up the mountains to the Eyrie and the Maiden Tower.

The snow-clad summit of the Giant’s Lance loomed above her, an immensity of stone and ice that dwarfed the castle perched upon its shoulder. (…) “Would that I had wings as well.”

(AFFC, Alayne I)

Sansa wishes to have her own devices to go and do as she wants.

And on the next chapter, she arrives at the Gates of the Moon and on the way makes a friend: Myranda Royce, an experienced girl that may or may not take the part of Claris. Not that we would wish anyone to marry Littlefinger but she has expressed interest and it might as well be a plot of the Royces.

And last but not least, the Gatekeeper who aids Floris inside the Tower has to be considered. There has been plenty of speculation around where the previous Knight of the Gate may be and of what the new one knows about Alayne Stone.

Another interesting motif is the fool:

Daris says, "now you're a fool" (and he takes the child for a fool).

To Floire in Floris and Blanchefleur (Middle English version)

In literature, the fool is the only character allowed to laugh at and mock everyone regardless of standing. Oftentimes and particularly in Shakespeare’s work, the fool possesses the common sense other characters lack and is the only one who can speak honestly to the king.

Being lowly gave fools the chance to be useful advisers to some monarchs without becoming a threat. Many had physical deformities or were dwarfs, they had an acute sense of humor or an outstanding understanding of the world. Plenty of royals became tired of false courtesies and adulation and turned to their jesters to confide in.

In the tarot, the Fool is usually depicted with a dog at his feet and just about to step towards a cliff.

And it’s not necessary to be a professional buffoon to be foolish as the Fool himself tells Jonquil: “Sweet lady, all men are fools, and all men are knights, where women are concerned.”

And Olenna Tyrell, who was betrothed to a Dragon Prince only to be turned down for love, has something to add: “All men are fools if truth be told, but the ones in motley are more amusing than the ones with crowns.”

Talking about marriage, the magic ring that Floire and Blanchefleur try to convince the other to put on so they might be safe is also a symbol of marital union.

I don’t think I have to explain what the Kingsguard cloak means as it has been explained so well before. I’ll just point out that it's a symbol of marriage in Westeros, the equivalent of the wedding ring and that like the magic ring, the cloak means protection.

Granted, there’s no giant and no dragon in Floire and Blanchefleur. However there are giants like Gregor and Littlefinger for Sandor and Sansa. And there may be dragons too:

Sansa began to cry. He let go of her then, and snuffed out the torch in the dirt. “No pretty words for that, girl? No little compliment the septa taught you?” When there was no answer, he continued. “Most of them, they think it was some battle. A siege, a burning tower, an enemy with a torch. One fool asked if it was dragonsbreath.” His laugh was softer this time, but just as bitter. (AGOT)

Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned’s cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon’s breath surrounded the girls where they lay. “I dreamed of Bran,” Sansa had whispered to him. “I saw him smiling.” (AGOT)

And Bran dreamed of them too, surrounded by three shadows…

There is a point well worth speculating on: the way things repeat in threes before they truly happen.

Three times tries the King to get rid of Blanchefleur and is stopped by the Queen, the last one, she’s sold to merchants. Three inns does Floire spent the night in and in the last he finally learns where exactly Blanchefleur is and how to convince the Gatekeeper to allow him in. Three cups does Floire get from his father, two lesser ones he gifts the innkeepers and the last red gold cup, he gives the Gatekeeper to buy his loyalty.

Twice is Sansa covered with Sandor’s cloak, twice metaphorically deflowered, twice has she fled a tower, twice been made captive and twice been in a tourney with Sandor…

About the inns, Sansa’s first chapter in AGOT is set in the Inn at the Crossroads, the chapter where she and Sandor interact for the first time… and in Arya XIII in ASOS, she and Sandor get to the Inn at the Crossroads. In that same chapter, Sandor is left to die…

The last time we see the Inn at the Crossroads is in Brienne VII; AFFC. Where she fights with Oathkeeper a large man wearing the Hound’s helmet.

When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not. “You’ll be defending Ned Stark’s daughter with Ned Stark’s own steel,” Jaime had promised.

(AFFC Brienne I)

Oathkeeper, the sword that should protect Sansa, defeats the Hound. And one wonders what sword did Florian have that was on par with the Just Maid and Dark Sister.

[brashcandy]

Thanks for doing this essay, Catherine; I really enjoyed reading it and learning more about Floris and Blanchefleur. There are a lot of compelling intersections with Florian and Jonquil as you've pointed out, along with similar motifs in how the romance develops. You mentioned the Knight of the Gate, who's currently Donnel Waynwood, and funny enough he has a squire named Sandor Frey ;) It will be interesting to return to some points in this piece when we get into the later chapters of the reread, but it does establish the F&J song as having critical value for appreciating Sandor and Sansa's relationship.

[Milady of York]

Nice to see it posted at last, Catherine. My thanks again for accepting to do this literary exploration at my request.

There are a lot of compelling intersections with Florian and Jonquil as you've pointed out, along with similar motifs in how the romance develops. You mentioned the Knight of the Gate, who's currently Donnel Waynwood, and funny enough he has a squire named Sandor Frey ;) It will be interesting to return to some points in this piece when we get into the later chapters of the reread, but it does establish the F&J song as having critical value for appreciating Sandor and Sansa's relationship.

Indeed! Florian and Jonquil is a story that doesn't seem to have been based on a single story, so we won't find one-on-one parallels even with the closest-matching medieval romances. Like many a GRRM literary invention, it is a storytelling melting pot; a blend of elements of classical mythology and chansons de geste. Some elements, like Florian meeting Jonquil as she bathed in a pool with other maidens seems adapted from similar instances in Hellene mythology, which has at least two examples of this sort of meeting that call back the Westerosi song. And other elements, like the lowborn knight in love with the highborn lady, the dragonslaying and the threat of a giant/monster are hallmarks of typical Middle Ages chivalry epics, and so common that you could take any of those and find a number of Florian and Jonquil similarities. These coincidences do reinforce the notion that Martin is playing with traditional courtly love and chivalric themes for Sandor's arc in addition to more profound topics on knighthood and its ethics.

We know so little of this story that it can be challenging to study in-depth, and a number of educated guesses and inferences go into analysing it, as Catherine will surely tell. But from what we do know, this song is definitely connected to Sandor's arc throughout, and that its lyrics may very well contain some revealing bits, to judge by the fact that despite being the song most mentioned in the entire series, we haven't read no verses from it besides Jaime's "Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool," that didn't really give much away, and it has to be for a reason because other songs with less mentions and seemingly less connections have had their lyrics revealed in full or partially; and also because GRRM seems to be avoiding to disclose more of this story in the series proper, choosing to do it in the side stories instead, like he did with Duncan, and in a few lines in the other novellas and the World Book; and it might very well be that we'll find the full plot out of the main saga. The bits we do know already teased intriguing possibilities for the two mentioned characters, especially because of the presence of the giant, who appears in a prophesy linked to our "Jonquil" and, if the Bran vision is about Sandor, also has ties to the current "Florian," and we've already seen how Dontos is mistakenly taken for a Florian, only to deliver the Jonquil to the giant, not save her from him.

[DogLover]

I was invited by Milady of York to do this write-up about the song of Florian and Jonquil that features so prominently in Sandor’s story and its possible inspiration in the medieval story of Floris and Blanchefleur. Having enjoyed the observations and discussions on this thread and the PtP long before, it makes me really happy to post this one. I hope you enjoy reading it.

What a lovely treat, CatherineLaw! I really enjoyed it and found it very informative. I also noticed some parallels with Floris and Blanchefleur and the Beauty and the Beast tale, a significant motif interwoven throughout ASoIaF, especially the magic ring, as in Madame de Villeneuve's version, Beast gives Belle a magic ring to transport her from her home (that she visits upon receiving permission from Beast) back to Beast's estate. For her to return, she only need take the ring off and place it on her nightstand before falling asleep. When she wakes, she'll find herself back at Beast's palace. However, she stays with her family longer than she promised Beast, and when she does return, she finds him dying of heartbreak, similar to Floire, who threatens suicide upon hearing that Blanchefleur is dead. And, of course, as you mentioned, the white cloak in Sandor and Sansa's story replaces the ring, as both are symbols of marriage. Class also is a significant theme in both tales, as it is in the relationship between Sandor and Sansa, except Floire and Beast are highborn men who fall in love with lowborn women in contrast to the lowborn Sandor falling for the highborn Sansa. And then you have the added twist that Sansa is expected to woo Harry the Heir, lower in station to her status as highborn lady of a great house, but he's the one who thinks she, who is posing as a bastard, is too low for him.

Often in ASOIAF we hear characters express that the gods are rarely good or that they are deaf to prayers. I first became curious about this back in Sam I (SoS.) Sam's fleeing the Fist of the First Men and desperately praying to the mother for mercy. He thinks to himself that the Seven have no power beyond the Wall and prays to the old gods for mercy instead. <insert paragraphs of snow trudging misery> ... but suddenly Small Paul shows up and rather mercifully carries Sam (and curiously asks him for a raven.) So despite all appearances, his prayers were indeed answered. I suspect this happens with far greater frequency than most readers realize. While one aspect of this strikes me as a subtle nod to the power of the old gods, I also think Martin is poking fun at our very human ability to ignore when we get what we wish for. In this case here, as with Sam's in SoS, I think we're looking at old gods influence.

I just want to bring over Lyanna Stark's comment from the PtP thread wherein she points out that the ship Sandor embarks in attack during the Battle of the Blackwater is called Prayer, the very night Sansa prays for him, and then later sings him the Mother's Hymn since it's significant for future discussion.

A small observation to tie into your romance analysis:

Do you like wine, little bird? True wine? A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman.”

Technically the "Or a woman." line is ambiguous. It can be read as the alternative to all a man needs or read as all a man or a woman needs.

I have never thought Sandor’s “Or a woman” comment ambiguous, as I never interpreted it any other way. I suppose Sandor could be advocating equal opportunity drinking, but his other remarks when observing Sansa’s body contextually frames the comment as a sexually charged one.

[Ragnorak]

I was invited by Milady of York to do this write-up about the song of Florian and Jonquil that features so prominently in Sandor’s story and its possible inspiration in the medieval story of Floris and Blanchefleur. Having enjoyed the observations and discussions on this thread and the PtP long before, it makes me really happy to post this one. I hope you enjoy reading it.

He cupped her under the jaw, raising her chin, his fingers pinching her painfully. “And that’s more than little birds can do, isn’t it? I never got my song.”

“I… I know a song about Florian and Jonquil.”

“Florian and Jonquil? A fool and his cunt. Spare me. But one day I’ll have a song from you, whether you will it or no.”

“I will sing it for you gladly.”

Sandor Clegane snorted. “Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here… and every one better than you.”

(ACOK Sansa II)

<snip>

Very nice work! I'm still locked in a tangled web of Florian and Jonquil speculation so I don't have much to add, but you definitely deserve the praise.

I just want to bring over Lyanna Stark's comment from the PtP thread wherein she points out that the ship Sandor embarks in attack during the Battle of the Blackwater is called Prayer, the very night Sansa prays for him, and then later sings him the Mother's Hymn since it's significant for future discussion.

I have never thought Sandor’s “Or a woman” comment ambiguous, as I never interpreted it any other way. I suppose Sandor could be advocating equal opportunity drinking, but his other remarks when observing Sansa’s body contextually frames the comment as a sexually charged one.

I've already written Sandor V and Prayer comes up there along with everything you mentioned. So I'll hold off on elaborating much. What is important here is that the Prayer theme seems to be fully established or at least has its incentive moment here in the godswood. Keeping in mind that Sandor seems to be the answer to her godswood prayer seems important to keep in mind going forward. He eventually ends up at the Quiet Isle which is a place for prayer, but prayers of the Seven not the old gods prayers that Sandor answered (though there have been theories about the cave.) The BwB trial also falls under the shadow of prayers. Definitely a huge theme in Sandor's arc.

I didn't mean to imply that I was advocating for a different interpretation. Yours seems to be the clearly intended meaning in context as you point out. Grammatically it has an ambiguous read. The other "Or a woman." meaning could be read as thoughts on something akin to Jorah's offer to Dany just before the dragon hatching and tied to the words he spoke before accepting the white cloak. It resembles the offer that will come later to flee Kings Landing with him. Thought the duality was interesting.

[CatherineLaw]

Thanks for doing this essay, Catherine; I really enjoyed reading it and learning more about Floris and Blanchefleur. There are a lot of compelling intersections with Florian and Jonquil as you've pointed out, along with similar motifs in how the romance develops. You mentioned the Knight of the Gate, who's currently Donnel Waynwood, and funny enough he has a squire named Sandor Frey ;) It will be interesting to return to some points in this piece when we get into the later chapters of the reread, but it does establish the F&J song as having critical value for appreciating Sandor and Sansa's relationship.

Oops, I forgot about little Sandor, nice catch. :D

We know so little of this story that it can be challenging to study in-depth, and a number of educated guesses and inferences go into analysing it, as Catherine will surely tell. But from what we do know, this song is definitely connected to Sandor's arc throughout, and that its lyrics may very well contain some revealing bits, to judge by the fact that despite being the song most mentioned in the entire series, we haven't read no verses from it besides Jaime's "Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool," that didn't really give much away, and it has to be for a reason because other songs with less mentions and seemingly less connections have had their lyrics revealed in full or partially; and also because GRRM seems to be avoiding to disclose more of this story in the series proper, choosing to do it in the side stories instead, like he did with Duncan, and in a few lines in the other novellas and the World Book; and it might very well be that we'll find the full plot out of the main saga. The bits we do know already teased intriguing possibilities for the two mentioned characters, especially because of the presence of the giant, who appears in a prophesy linked to our "Jonquil" and, if the Bran vision is about Sandor, also has ties to the current "Florian," and we've already seen how Dontos is mistakenly taken for a Florian, only to deliver the Jonquil to the giant, not save her from him.

And Jaime sings those verses when he's in Maidenpool with Brienne. The inverse Beauty and the Beast, is Jaime fond of singing?

I think the song would be revealed in the ASOIAF books though, it makes no sense to let Sandor alive and thinking about the UnSong for the rest of his life.

I have never thought Sandor’s “Or a woman” comment ambiguous, as I never interpreted it any other way. I suppose Sandor could be advocating equal opportunity drinking, but his other remarks when observing Sansa’s body contextually frames the comment as a sexually charged one.

Yes, he has always given Sansa good (if harsh) advice, encouraging her to drink does not make sense.

[Gambolpuddy]

While I'm not trying to argue or convince anyone otherwise, I never found Sandor's comments on the Serpentine to be sexually charged (though I fully agree that there's plenty of evidence that they were).

When I read them, I took them at face value: Sansa was becoming a woman and was starting to look the part, almost... ready to flower and produce heirs for the king. My impression was that he was issuing a warning on this change which could lead to other avenues of distress for her.

To play devil's advocate; I certainly wouldn't find it out of character for Sandor to be advocating equal opportunity drinking, and partaking of some wine, dark as blood, for a girl about to flower who's betrothed to a cruel boy-tyrant doesn't sound like the worst advice to me... Sandor shows throughout that he is quite liberal in his views with regards to women: he treats Sansa as a human instead of a claim and encourages her to speak freely with him; gives equal shares of food to Arya; teaches Arya about mercy and gives her the opportunity to enact revenge, etc...

[Elba the Intoner]

I have never thought Sandor’s “Or a woman” comment ambiguous, as I never interpreted it any other way. I suppose Sandor could be advocating equal opportunity drinking, but his other remarks when observing Sansa’s body contextually frames the comment as a sexually charged one.

Yes, he has always given Sansa good (if harsh) advice, encouraging her to drink does not make sense.

If I remember correctly form when we were doing the original Pawn to Player threads, this came up in a discussion of how the book was interpreted in other languages. I distinctly remember a Spanish speaking poster who originally read the books in Spanish saying that this line read in Spanish as "All a man or a woman needs . . ." I agree with you that I read its original intent as having sexual undertones. Unfortunately for some non native English speakers this test may get lost in translation.

Wonderful job CatherineLaw! I'm really intrigued by the Florian and Jonquil song and I hope we do get the full text of it at some point. It was very interesting to see how it mimics real life medieval tales.

[DogLover]

I didn't mean to imply that I was advocating for a different interpretation. Yours seems to be the clearly intended meaning in context as you point out. Grammatically it has an ambiguous read. The other "Or a woman." meaning could be read as thoughts on something akin to Jorah's offer to Dany just before the dragon hatching and tied to the words he spoke before accepting the white cloak. It resembles the offer that will come later to flee Kings Landing with him. Thought the duality was interesting.

While I'm not trying to argue or convince anyone otherwise, I never found Sandor's comments on the Serpentine to be sexually charged (though I fully agree that there's plenty of evidence that they were).

When I read them, I took them at face value: Sansa was becoming a woman and was starting to look the part, almost... ready to flower and produce heirs for the king. My impression was that he was issuing a warning on this change which could lead to other avenues of distress for her.

To play devil's advocate; I certainly wouldn't find it out of character for Sandor to be advocating equal opportunity drinking, and partaking of some wine, dark as blood, for a girl about to flower who's betrothed to a cruel boy-tyrant doesn't sound like the worst advice to me... Sandor shows throughout that he is quite liberal in his views with regards to women: he treats Sansa as a human instead of a claim and encourages her to speak freely with him; gives equal shares of food to Arya; teaches Arya about mercy and gives her the opportunity to enact revenge, etc...

If I remember correctly form when we were doing the original Pawn to Player threads, this came up in a discussion of how the book was interpreted in other languages. I distinctly remember a Spanish speaking poster who originally read the books in Spanish saying that this line read in Spanish as "All a man or a woman needs . . ." I agree with you that I read its original intent as having sexual undertones. Unfortunately for some non native English speakers this test may get lost in translation.

Wonderful job CatherineLaw! I'm really intrigued by the Florian and Jonquil song and I hope we do get the full text of it at some point. It was very interesting to see how it mimics real life medieval tales.

A different interpretation of the "Or a woman" comment honesty never occurred to me until Ragnorak pointed it out, and now I see the ambiguity. :)

Gambolpuddy, I do disagree that Sandor was issuing a warning, especially considering his drunken behavior and stopping himself from crossing a line (if he hadn't already) by catching and reminding himself that Sansa is still young and then asking for a song, which he then again asks for when they've returned to her room, an expression of desiring intimacy.

"...ah, you're still a stupid little bird, aren't you? Singing all the songs they taught you...sing me a song, why don't you? Go on. Sing to me. Some song about knights and fair maids. You like knights don't you?"

His drunken behavior also implies that he was trying to convey his attraction to her, but just didn't know how, resulting in a rather cringe-inducing interaction. Calling her a stupid bird also reminds me of when he threatened to kill Sansa after he revealed how he received his scars, which I interpret as an effort to regain control of the situation after appearing vulnerable.

[Milady of York]

And Jaime sings those verses when he's in Maidenpool with Brienne. The inverse Beauty and the Beast, is Jaime fond of singing?

Not that we know, and here his intention was to provoke her through mocking her to elicit a furious response, as at the time he still delighted in taunting Brienne. The point of singing it at that moment and in Maidenpool was dramatic irony: the pool where Jonquil was bathing when she met Florian was now contaminated water full of corpses floating on it, a testament to the consequences of war and a contrast to the romanticism of songs and stories. This irony is reinforced because at the same time, Sansa is trying to escape King's Landing with a "Florian" that will betray her; again another of Martin's ways of stressing on songs vs. reality.

I think the song would be revealed in the ASOIAF books though, it makes no sense to let Sandor alive and thinking about the UnSong for the rest of his life.

Whilst it's not a possibility to discard completely, the fact remains that so long as the song's lyrics contain a plotline that may be too revealing for the main series, it won't be included in there. Otherwise, it'd have been already, as it'd be merely lyrics from a popular song with no particular bearing on anyone's arc. Also, what we know from Florian and Jonquil, including bits of dialogue, portions of the plot, characterisation, etc., hasn't come from ASOIAF proper but actually from the Tales of Dunk & Egg. And it wouldn't be necessarily out of place to find out this way, since this song has also been linked intricately to Duncan the Tall's storyline and isn't placed there at random either but in a context, so it does make sense that it'd be in these novellas where we'll find out more. Looking at the collection of quotes, you can see that it's so. Duncan rivals Sansa in mentions of this story, and reveals much more than Sansa has done.

I didn't mean to imply that I was advocating for a different interpretation. Yours seems to be the clearly intended meaning in context as you point out. Grammatically it has an ambiguous read. The other "Or a woman." meaning could be read as thoughts on something akin to Jorah's offer to Dany just before the dragon hatching and tied to the words he spoke before accepting the white cloak. It resembles the offer that will come later to flee Kings Landing with him. Thought the duality was interesting.

Besides the Hound's comments at the start on her being "almost a woman" and his observations about her developing body, there's a parallel with Duncan the Tall when he's trying to flirt with Tanselle Too-Tall, in which he asks something similar to her:

"Will you drink a horn of ale?" he asked the puppet girl as she was scooping the sawdust blood back into her dragon. "With me, I mean? Or a sausage? I had a sausage last night, and it was good. They're made with pork, I think."

"I thank you, m'lord, but we have another show." The girl rose, and ran off to the fierce fat Dornishwoman who worked the puppet knight while Dunk stood there feeling stupid. He liked the way she ran, though. A pretty girl, and tall. I would not have to kneel to kiss that one. He knew how to kiss.

Compare now, both Duncan and Sandor are directly and obliquely mentioning drinking as part of the wooing process: "Will you drink a horn of ale? With me, I mean?" to "Do you like wine, little bird? True wine?". And also notice how Duncan assesses Tanselle's physical attractiveness, focusing on how tall she is, which is just perfect for his enormous bumbling self. Sandor starts by appraising her body and doesn't fail to mention how tall Sansa is now (she has grown several inches, the girl is really tall) and stops abruptly at that, which makes sense considering his own height and that he's always had to kneel or stoop over her to make eye contact.

Martin must love to repeat this, as the whole Serpentine scene has parallels in two distinct scenes from the Tales of Dunk & Egg, and that one from The Hedge Knight is the first, allowing us to understand better the context of Sandor's words by comparative analysis. The second is in The Mystery Knight, and also serves the same function, only that in that one Duncan is the "Sansa" and oblivious to what's going on, and Daemon II Blackfyre is the "Sandor."

[brashcandy]

Besides the Hound's comments at the start on her being "almost a woman" and his observations about her developing body, there's a parallel with Duncan the Tall when he's trying to flirt with Tanselle Too-Tall, in which he asks something similar to her:

"Will you drink a horn of ale?" he asked the puppet girl as she was scooping the sawdust blood back into her dragon. "With me, I mean? Or a sausage? I had a sausage last night, and it was good. They're made with pork, I think."

"I thank you, m'lord, but we have another show." The girl rose, and ran off to the fierce fat Dornishwoman who worked the puppet knight while Dunk stood there feeling stupid. He liked the way she ran, though. A pretty girl, and tall. I would not have to kneel to kiss that one. He knew how to kiss.

Compare now, both Duncan and Sandor are directly and obliquely mentioning drinking as part of the wooing process: "Will you drink a horn of ale? With me, I mean?" to "Do you like wine, little bird? True wine?". And also notice how Duncan assesses Tanselle's physical attractiveness, focusing on how tall she is, which is just perfect for his enormous bumbling self. Sandor starts by appraising her body and doesn't fail to mention how tall Sansa is now (she has grown several inches, the girl is really tall) and stops abruptly at that, which makes sense considering his own height and that he's always had to kneel or stoop over her to make eye contact.

I see you're trying to get Lyanna Stark's attention with more talk of sausage :D I wonder what Sandor thinks goes well with sour red? Seriously now, I do agree with what you're saying here: it's all a part of the flirtation process. The ambiguity of "Or a woman" becomes much less so for me by the follow up of: He laughed, shook his head. "Drunk as a dog, damn me." The suggestion is that he meant that all a man needed was a flagon of wine or a woman, but then realises he better sober up quick before he says more inappropriate things to Sansa he might regret :)

[Lyanna Stark]

OMG I came for the sausage and stayed for the wine? :D *waves Team Lyn Corbray flag*

Away on conference so only a short post.

Lovely essay on Florie and Blanchefleur CatherineLaw and very interesting that it focuses on smarts and loyalty more than one skill with arms. While Sandor is certainly a skilled fighter and a good bodyguard, the most important function he has in Sansa's storyline is perhaps to illustrate a counterpoint to the ideal of knighthood, and also on how Sansa can handle this by way of smarts and know-how.

Regarding the Serpentine steps scene, I also did not pick up on the ambiguity the first time round (with the wine-comment), which was a very long time ago. On subsequent read-throughs is seems fairly obvious that it is left ambiguous for a reason, but given all the evidence of Sandor's other lewd commentary, I think it's a fair guess that it's actually more of the same. One interesting facet of the scene is the body language employed and how very close they are all the time, and how mouch touching is involved. It can also be compared to Jaime and Brienne's relationship, which share similar characteristics of a lot of touching, even if all of it is not "positive", especially not at first. It does add a very physical, almost earthy quality to both these relationships though, contrary to Sansa's fantasies about Loras and Brienne's fantasies about Renly.

[Milady of York]

The ambiguity of "Or a woman" becomes much less so for me by the follow up of: He laughed, shook his head. "Drunk as a dog, damn me."

Regarding the Serpentine steps scene, I also did not pick up on the ambiguity the first time round (with the wine-comment), which was a very long time ago. On subsequent read-throughs is seems fairly obvious that it is left ambiguous for a reason, but given all the evidence of Sandor's other lewd commentary, I think it's a fair guess that it's actually more of the same.

Indeed! Spurred on by Elba's recollection of past discussions about the loss of ambiguity of this line in other languages, I decided to go through the foreign-edition copies that I collect. And it has become apparent to me that some translators have indeed wiped out all trace of ambiguity and have instead chosen to present Sandor's remarks as unequivocally referring to both sexes drinking wine. But it also is fairly obvious that it's due to questionable translating, because not all of them have made poor decisions on how to convey the meaning. See the examples:

In Spanish:

"O a una mujer."

Meaning, "Or to a woman."

In French:

"Homme ou femme."

Meaning, "Man or woman."

Portuguese:

"Ou uma mulher."

Meaning, "Or a woman."

German:

"Oder eine Frau."

Meaning, "Or a woman."

Italian:

"Di quello o di una donna."

Meaning, "Of that or of a woman."

As you can see, the Portuguese and German translators kept the original context so that readers in those languages can experience the same ambiguous reading of that line as English speakers would. The French translation is the worst offender, because they've inserted "homme" where there isn't any such word in the original, so that the line has now two instances of "man" and reads like "All a man needs. Man or woman." And the Italian one practically spells it out for all and sundry that he meant just what we've understood in English: the need is of wine or a woman.

[ornitorrinca]

This isn't the only instance where the Spanish translator has decided to favor one interpretation at the exclusion of other possibilities (potentially to the detriment of readers). I feel lucky to be able to read Martin in the original language and appreciate the nuances (and squabble over the various interpretations).

The translator's choice for the verb "need" is regrettable. The chosen phrase (hace falta) requires a definite stance on the meaning of "Or a woman": either a woman is the only thing a man needs ("O una mujer.") or wine is the only thing a woman needs (this is the interpretation given by the translator: "O a una mujer."). Had she used another verb (necesita), the ambiguity would have remained intact (and this verb would work just as well, so it isn't a matter of style or flow). As it is, the sentence structure leaves no room for doubt for Spanish speakers that he was saying wine is all that a man - or a woman - needs, really to the same extent as the French edition, though the French translator apparently took way more liberty in twisting the phrase. A simple verb change would not only have kept the meaning as ambiguous as in English, but also would have clued readers in that Sandor was not, in fact, saying that women just need a little wine.

Translation is no easy task and it's sometimes impossible to convey double meanings and cultural references without seriously interrupting the flow of the text. Also, since translators can't just call GRRM up and ask "hey, so when you say 'Or a woman.' do you mean..?" they occasionally have to make tough calls on ambiguous lines and readers just need to trust those decisions. Here though, I don't trust her call.

The translator took another liberty in Sandor's final scene with Arya that I find much more objectionable. There she also selects a verb that only allows one interpretation; in this case, the verb is "take," as in "should have taken," which has long been a point of debate due to its ambiguity in English. Maybe I am just too picky, but I found many faults with my Spanish books (first and second editions all by the same translator). The copious amounts of spelling errors were the least of my concerns: for starters, the "Arya burrito" line is missing and Stranger magically changes names between books!

[DogLover]

In Spanish:

"O a una mujer."

Meaning, "Or to a woman."

In French:

"Homme ou femme."

Meaning, "Man or woman."

Portuguese:

"Ou uma mulher."

Meaning, "Or a woman."

German:

"Oder eine Frau."

Meaning, "Or a woman."

Italian:

"Di quello o di una donna."

Meaning, "Of that or of a woman."

As you can see, the Portuguese and German translators kept the original context so that readers in those languages can experience the same ambiguous reading of that line as English speakers would. The French translation is the worst offender, because they've inserted "homme" where there isn't any such word in the original, so that the line has now two instances of "man" and reads like "All a man needs. Man or woman." And the Italian one practically spells it out for all and sundry that he meant just what we've understood in English: the need is of wine or a woman.

This isn't the only instance where the Spanish translator has decided to favor one interpretation at the exclusion of other possibilities (potentially to the detriment of readers). I feel lucky to be able to read Martin in the original language and appreciate the nuances (and squabble over the various interpretations).

The translator's choice for the verb "need" is regrettable. The chosen phrase (hace falta) requires a definite stance on the meaning of "Or a woman": either a woman is the only thing a man needs ("O una mujer.") or wine is the only thing a woman needs (this is the interpretation given by the translator: "O a una mujer."). Had she used another verb (necesita), the ambiguity would have remained intact (and this verb would work just as well, so it isn't a matter of style or flow). As it is, the sentence structure leaves no room for doubt for Spanish speakers that he was saying wine is all that a man - or a woman - needs, really to the same extent as the French edition, though the French translator apparently took way more liberty in twisting the phrase. A simple verb change would not only have kept the meaning as ambiguous as in English, but also would have clued readers in that Sandor was not, in fact, saying that women just need a little wine.

Translation is no easy task and it's sometimes impossible to convey double meanings and cultural references without seriously interrupting the flow of the text. Also, since translators can't just call GRRM up and ask "hey, so when you say 'Or a woman.' do you mean..?" they occasionally have to make tough calls on ambiguous lines and readers just need to trust those decisions. Here though, I don't trust her call.

The translator took another liberty in Sandor's final scene with Arya that I find much more objectionable. There she also selects a verb that only allows one interpretation; in this case, the verb is "take," as in "should have taken," which has long been a point of debate due to its ambiguity in English. Maybe I am just too picky, but I found many faults with my Spanish books (first and second editions all by the same translator). The copious amounts of spelling errors were the least of my concerns: for starters, the "Arya burrito" line is missing and Stranger magically changes names between books!

Thanks to both of you for this. This is indeed extremely helpful in interpreting the intended meaning. :)