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Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.133

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Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Radio Westeros podcast:

A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?

Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.

Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?

Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?

He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.

There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?

We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter?

In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?

Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.

George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.

On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.

Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?

The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.

"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?

No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?

Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?

Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?

The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.

In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?

There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?

He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)

"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)

"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)

"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)

"R+L=J v. 130" (thread one hundred thirty)

"R+L=J v.131" (thread one hundred thirty one)

"R+L=J v.132" (thread one hundred thirty two)

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Oh, shiny :)



Back to discussing the possible Great Council in the end.





I think the first thing to realize about this new Great Council is that no one will be selecting the best Targaryen heir to the Targaryen throne. Well, except those who support the surviving Targaryen heirs anyway. In fact, the only surviving Targaryen heir will be Dany’s possible child and if Dany becomes the undisputed queen of Westeros before she dies, that child will have the upper hand against everyone.



The upcoming GC will be mainly gathered because the majority of the Lords will need a monarch to rule them and keep the king’s peace as they recover from their wounds. So, the process will resemble a combination of a kingsmoot and the election of the LC.



At such an event, the regent of Sweetrobin and his supporters will absolutely make his claim. Actually, I can make a list of possible claimants and their pros/cons.



1. Sweetrobin (assuming he survives)



Pros: He is an Arryn. His ancestors ruled as Great Kings for nearly 6000 years. He is among the highest nobility. On his mother side, he has very close ties to Riverlands. So far, his power was not diminished and the Vale might survive the Second Dance/War for Dawn with relatively less losses. So, his House during the Great Council will probably be among the most powerful ones.



Cons: He is not directly related to recent monarchs. He is known as a sickly boy. He will not be an adult during the Great Council. Along with other child/baby claimants, depending on a regent will be considered as a con for him. He is not the loveliest boy out there. In the future, he is not likely to do something important to prove his worth to the Realm. House Arryn will be a part of the Second Dance, which means those they fought against might hold grievances towards them.



2. Shireen (assuming she survives)



Pros: She will be the legitimate heir to House Baratheon.



Cons: She is a girl (I know but hey, this is Westeros). She is marked with greyscale. That whoreson called LF produced a disgusting tale about her. She is not an adult, which means dependency on regents. In the future, she is not likely to do something important to prove her worth to the Realm. House Baratheon will have been a part of every conflict and so they will have made lots of enemies. She will also suffer from the bad PR of Stannis.



3. Edric Storm (assuming he survives)



Pros: He is the bastard of a king with a noble motehr. He has the gift of Robert which makes it easy to make friends and inspire loyalty. He might prove himself in the Second Dance. He will not suffer from the bad PR of Stannis.



Cons: He is a bastard. He will likely make enemies during the Second Dance.



4. Dany’s trueborn child (assuming he/she exists)



Pros: He/she is Dany’s child.



Cons: He/she is Dany’s child.



5. Trystane Martell (assuming he survives)



Pros: He is from House Martell. He has legitimate Targaryen ancestry.



Cons: He is Dornish. In the future, he is not likely to do something important to prove his worth to the Realm. House Martell will be one of the primary sides of the Second Dance, which means they will make many bitter foes. The price of fighting against Dany will be very costly. So, the power of House Martell will be very weak during the GC.



6. Gerion Lannister (assuming he lives and survives)



Pros: He is a Lannister. He has the stuff of kings.



Cons: He is a Lannister. He will be at an old age which may cast doubts on whether he will live long enough to have trueborn heirs and raise them. He will take part in the Second Dance on Dany’s side. He lived in exile as the Corsair King. Being a pirate will not help his PR.






...Even when 'democratizing' the GC, if the criteria for the choosing of a new king are too loose, the Great Council is likely to fail in preventing another conflict, don't you think? This is not the Holy Roman Emperor where there was a tradition of electing the next emperor...and even then, the 'election' was rarely left to hazard. In Westeros, the only people who are familiar with elections are the Iron Born and the men of the night's watch, give them too broad a choice and everyone will start pressing their own 'claim'.



What claim does Gerion Lannister have? He missed out on the whole game, that's bound to be a big deterrent. To qualify as a 'candidate' one would imo, need to fulfill at least some of the criteria mentioned below....where 1 takes precedence over 2 and 3and is sufficient on its own, and 2 and 3 take precedence over the rest but require 4 to be 'validated'...



imo, Pretenders to the Kingship of Westeros should,


  1. have the right ancestry (Targaryen or Baratheon if we are talking about the IT; Stark (or Tully) if we are talking about Robb's crown...).
  2. have been actively involved in the politics of the realm, and in the interest of benefiting the realm (and not the opposite ;) so no Littlefinger )
  3. have distinguished themselves in battle and/or as a leader during the war in Westeros (not in some far away country).
  4. have ties to at least one of the great houses (blood ties, or marriage ties, the more the better.).
  5. be a known candidate (known personally by GC members or by hearsay, so no random, never before heard of, bastard of Robert...)
  6. not have been absent from westeros over a prolonged period in recent years. (no returning Gerion after X years lost at sea.)

It would seem unlikely for a GC to even consider claimants that fulfill neither 1, 2, nor 3, I think. But a 'candidate' not fulfilling criteria 1, 2 or 3 might still qualify by fulfilling 4, 5 + 6 and with the bonus 7. have a GC member's support/approval...and only if the choices between throne claimants was too narrow and unsatisfactory -- there would be no point in introducing a 'new candidate' otherwise....(and that is the only opportunity for Sweet Robin to even be considered; while Gerion Lannister is definitely out...)



And that's only if we consider democratizing the GC. In Aemon's day you either had Targaryen blood and were thus a 'candidate' or you hadn't, and weren't.




The criteria in the kingsmoot were extremely loose. Every man who is a captain was allowed to make a claim. Surely, there were some fools like Lord Farwynd or Eric but in general, we see that the candidates had to offer everything and descent from the latest monarch was hardly an important criterion. We see that some of the most important Lords (Harlaw, Goodbrother) did not put their own claims but preferred to support the claimants that were best for interests.



The Old Drumm’s start was very good.



“Where is it written that our king must be a kraken?” Drumm began. “What right has Pyke to rule us? Great Wyk is the largest isle, Harlaw the richest, Old Wyk the most holy. When the black line was consumed by dragonfire, the ironborn gave the primacy to Vickon Greyjoy, aye . . . but as lord, not king.”



A similar argument can be made for the Targaryens. The Targaryens neither controlled the largest kingdom, nor the richest, nor the most holy. When they were overthrown by Robert, they lost their primacy and any non-Targaryen should have as much chance as a person with Targaryen descent in the new Great Council.



And note that this Great Council will not be a permanent institution. As long as the line of the king they choose continues, there will hardly be any need for anew Great Council.



I think Gerion Lannister is the Corsair King and he will fight in Dany’s side. Considering the lines of his elder brothers are doomed, he will probably end up as the Lord of the Casterly Rock. His merit as a skilled admiral and his title give him considerable power that makes it possible for him to make his own claim. But I think it is more likely that like the Reader, he will be supporting a claimant rather than making his own claim.



About your points: they describe Jon and that is why he will be the king. But it does not mean that even a person who checks only a single one of your points might make his claim in the Great Council.



1. As I explained, having the right ancestry will not matter much because most of the quarrel will be about which House is the rightful royal dynasty.


2. I think keeping their reputation clean will be more important. For example Stannis’ deeds will poison the claim of a Baratheon claimant. Lannisters will be generally hated by all. After Doran’s death, Arianne will destroy the neutral stance against the Martells. Dany will be an extremely controversial figure in Westeros. Starks will end up as the good guys as it was originally A Time for Wolves.


3. There might not be so many leaders surviving in the end and among such survivors, few of them are likely press their own claims. They might rather support this claimant or that claimant.


4. This is obviously a huge bonus, especially if those Great Houses were kings in the past.


5. Well, there might be such impostors but if they step up, their claims will be quickly dismissed.


6. Well, absence from the Wot5K and the Second Dance might work as a good point too.


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I'm curious what ya'll think of this.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north.He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

1. It seems GRRM intended from the start for Jon to always remain in the North.

2. It seems that the secret of Jon's parentage is a barrier for him and Arya to married/do the dirty, that the reveal would remove this barrier, and nothing more.

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I'm curious what ya'll think of this.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north.He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

1. It seems GRRM intended from the start for Jon to always remain in the North.

2. It seems that the secret of Jon's parentage is a barrier for him and Arya to married/do the dirty, that the reveal would remove this barrier, and nothing more.

1. Isn't that the outline for an early version of the first book in the series? First book =/= "always."

2. What were you expecting? "Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book," ... which also allows Jon to press his claim as the king of Westeros! More detail = less mystery.

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From the moment I read that, I connected it with Ned's 'You will marry a king' to Arya, which would be impossible since Sansa was already marrying the future king, but somehow Arya would as well.



The early draft tells you how.


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From the moment I read that, I connected it with Ned's 'You will marry a king' to Arya, which would be impossible since Sansa was already marrying the future king, but somehow Arya would as well.

The early draft tells you how.

I agree that there are some remnants of the early draft in AGoT like the one you mentioned but George changed many things while writing the later books. In a recent interview (which I cannot seem to find now) D&D said that George has not decided every detail about even characters like Arya or Jon. For minor characters (like Osha), even their endings are subject to change. George said that because of Nathalia's performance in the show, he will change the initial plan he had about Osha.

If the story leads George to a point where an idea from his initial plan looks ludicrous, he will certainly change it and write something that makes sense according to the development of the narrative.

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From the moment I read that, I connected it with Ned's 'You will marry a king' to Arya, which would be impossible since Sansa was already marrying the future king, but somehow Arya would as well.

The early draft tells you how.

Agreed, Neds, (and the authors), use of the word "king" when he could have made the same point with the term, "high lord," was deliberate.

And again, nothing has really changed the trajectory they are on, (Sansa betrays her family, comes to rue it, Jaimes bad half became Cersei, etc.,), just the "how" they get there.

He has written the ending, and is working backwards.

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Shiny!






From the moment I read that, I connected it with Ned's 'You will marry a king' to Arya, which would be impossible since Sansa was already marrying the future king, but somehow Arya would as well.



The early draft tells you how.





Agreed. Whether or not he sticks with that, we will have to wait and see.


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Would a Jon/Arya match even if "only" cousins still be incest. Would whole westeros accept that?? Isnt it condemned in the eyes of men and gods and all that.

Cousins marry cousins in Westeros all the time don't they? All the high houses are related at this point and "cousins"

I think condemnable incest in Westeros is speaking of brother/sister and parent/child

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From the last thread.

sj4iy:

Oh, I'm not shooting the messenger. Just saying that the synopsis is bullshit. I don't see how it's legit at all. It says "Oh, Dany's on the Iron throne" without any mention of Aegon or the Lannisters- whom she would have to get past to get the Iron Throne. No mention of any of the other main characters.

Nothing about that page is remotely believable.

I sense that you don't really like Dany much, but do you seriously believe that she won't deal with the Aegon (no matter if he's real or fake) and the Lannisters? For me that is the natural progression of this story and I hope to Old gods and New, that it all fits in the sixth book, because if it does not, we can kiss goodbye any notion of 7 books total. So yes, I allow the possibility that the synopsis on the German Amazon is derived from some earlier treatment written by a third party.

My guess TWOW first half will deal with the battle of Mereen and Winterfell, consequences of Jon's assassination, Arya as Mercy then abandoning THOBAW, Sansa and Petyr shenanigans, Aegon taking King's Landing from Cersei with his GC and Dornish troops, him marrying Arianne. That starts the middle of the book, where Dany lands in Westeros and the DOD 2.0 starts. Meanwhile a bunch of meaningless characters die. Euron takes a portion of Westeros while DOD 2.0 is happening, possibly a dragon too. Shit happens. Dany deals with him after Aegon. More frustrations. On the northern front is chaos and some more chaos, The Wall falls down, the Watch is dismissed and destroyed after the assassination, Stannis chills in Winterfell after killing the Boltons, Mellisandre dead ???, Jon is ???(possibly still frozen inside the ice cells (body) and on his way to the Lands of always winter in Ghost, Grrm only knows) and generally millions are dying either from the wars (DOD, Euron or in the north from the advancing WW's. The ast part of the book will deal, I imagine, with Dany trying to make sense of her newly gained crumpling kingdom, the REAL threat of the WW's, and I imagine in the North Bran will come full power and the sacrifices will be complete so he can revive/heal Jon in his own body (Ghos dies :( ).

....

Yeah...

A Dream of Spring....

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My guess TWOW first half will deal with the battle of Mereen and Winterfell, consequences of Jon's assassination, Arya as Mercy then abandoning THOBAW, Sansa and Petyr shenanigans, Aegon taking King's Landing from Cersei with his GC and Dornish troops, him marrying Arianne. That starts the middle of the book, where Dany lands in Westeros and the DOD 2.0 starts. Meanwhile a bunch of meaningless characters die. Euron takes a portion of Westeros while DOD 2.0 is happening, possibly a dragon too. Shit happens. Dany deals with him after Aegon. More frustrations. On the northern front is chaos and some more chaos, The Wall falls down, the Watch is dismissed and destroyed after the assassination, Stannis chills in Winterfell after killing the Boltons, Mellisandre dead ???, Jon is ???(possibly still frozen inside the ice cells (body) and on his way to the Lands of always winter in Ghost, Grrm only knows) and generally millions are dying either from the wars (DOD, Euron or in the north from the advancing WW's. The ast part of the book will deal, I imagine, with Dany trying to make sense of her newly gained crumpling kingdom, the REAL threat of the WW's, and I imagine in the North Bran will come full power and the sacrifices will be complete so he can revive/heal Jon in his own body (Ghos dies :( ).

A lot of that sounds reasonable. But I agree: GRRM only know.

Personally I don't think Jon is going to spend that much time in Ghost. Three chapters at most: one that is pure wolf, one that Jon realizing he is inside his direwolf, and then Mel/Val bringing Jon back

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As I have said in several threads, there are two lines of thoughts:



1. Dany will do everything, fight the Others, save the world etc. etc. for which 7 books are nowhere enough.


2. Dany will focus on her Dance while Jon and the other characters deal with the Others, for which 7 books are perfectly fine.


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A lot of that sounds reasonable. But I agree: GRRM only know.

Personally I don't think Jon is going to spend that much time in Ghost. Three chapters at most: one that is pure wolf, one that Jon realizing he is inside his direwolf, and then Mel/Val bringing Jon back

Looks like we still fail to see things the same way regarding what Jon will do in Ghost--I still think Jon/Ghost will be our eyes into the world of the Others, and thus Jon will be in Ghost for a while (but I admit you might be right).

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Good Morning!

He says as my work day is already almost done.. [emoji14]

Would a Jon/Arya match even if "only" cousins still be incest. Would whole westeros accept that?? Isnt it condemned in the eyes of men and gods and all that.

Cousin marriages in Westeros are quite common. That is accepted, not condemned "in the eyes of gods and men".

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