R+L=J v.133

[BearQueen87]

I was trying to say when the KL will be burned. It seems that according to you, Cersei has to burn the KL mid to end of TWoW. I believe Cersei will do it mid to end of ADoS.

Ah. Yes we disagree then.

Only GRRM knows in this case.

Anyway, back to RLJ

[J. Stargaryen]

Nothing more, what a limited perspective. Nothing more says you and not George.

I still shudder at the notion of Jon and Arya romantically. I mean these quotes Mithras posted in the last thread:

Arya is like Lyanna reincarnated and Jon was suppose to be with her? George loves his 50 shades of incest, that is for sure.

Jon + Arya hints at R+L=J, imo.

Genetically, Jon and Arya are cousins, but emotionally they're (bastard half-)brother and sister. That gives the relationship an incest vibe. Hint Hint. It would be very Targaryen-like of Jon to fall in love with and/or marry his closest living female relative. And it would be very Rhaegar-like of him to fall in love with Arya, because of her similarities to Lyanna. Arya's relationship with Gendry calls to mind the Lyanna-Robert betrothal.

[Mithras]

...and? I feel like you're trying to make a point here but I don't know what it is.

What? Isn't this totally a contradiction of what you just wrote to me?

No. Dany will hear the danger in the North even before coming to Westeros. She and Marwyn will likely meet and there is this whole Benerro-Dany-AAR stuff.

But if you agree that Dany will go North only after the KL (which is one of her objectives) is burned, it obviously means that KL is a much more important objective than the Others for her.

So, she will be no different than Stannis who came to the Wall because he had nowhere else to go after the defeat at Blackwater.

[BearQueen87]

But if you agree that Dany will go North only after the KL (which is one of her objectives) is burned, it obviously means that KL is a much more important objective than the Others for her.

Well, except that she doesn't know anything about the Others at the time of landing. No one does, except for those at the Wall. Not even those in the North at WF are having Other talk. You cannot fight what you do not realize is descending from the far north. Is she and every other lord just supposed to instinctual know to head north and fight the Others? Jon sends letters and no one heads him. So when she goes north to fight the Others it's because she was just told about them and realized she had to go that way. In other words, she puts KL and the IT aside for Other fighting.

[Mithras]

Well, except that she doesn't know anything about the Others at the time of landing. No one does, except for those at the Wall. Not even those in the North at WF are having Other talk. You cannot fight what you do not realize is descending from the far north. Is she and every other lord just supposed to instinctual know to head north and fight the Others? Jon sends letters and no one heads him. So when she goes north to fight the Others it's because she was just told about them and realized she had to go that way. In other words, she puts KL and the IT aside for Other fighting.

Marwyn has met the only person who slew an Other and he will likely meet Dany who will also be told that she is some sort of messiah. It is possible that Marwyn might have been watching the whole thing (Sam vs. Ser Puddles) with his glass candle.

[Greymoon]

Jon will ally with whomever agrees to bring their troops north. He doesn't have time for these political machinations. Jon and Dany can be "vs" each other all they want after the Ice Zombies are defeated.

He will make time for it if the stability of the realm is necessary to coordinate any sort of action against a greater threat. But in any case, I wasn't speaking specifically of political machinations, but more of current situations and what seems likely: because Dany is not in westeros and Aegon is, so after Stannis, Aegon makes for the most logical candidate to support....unless Sansa and/or Rickon claim the north.

Jon cannot ally with Dany as long as she is in essos.

While Dany has more legitimacy and might bring a bigger army (plus dragons) half of Aegon's army got loss on their way to westeros and might, if they got caught in the same storm as the Lyseni traders, have landed north; circumstances would thus tip in Aegon's favor again, his troops would effectively be at the wall. The Golden Company might be instrumental in saving Cotter Pyke and his crew.

Jon might also learn of his parentage at about the same time Aegon reveals himself, in which case he might feel that he owes him allegiance, as brother to brother.

You think the entire Other problem will be dealt with that swiftly? It's already becoming Wintery in KL. It's only going to get worse if the Wall falls. The Other problem is not going to solved in a few chapters or a few days.

I never understand where people get the fAegon/Sansa thing. It's far more likely that fAegon marries Arianne. Sansa as her own things to worry about outside of fAegon. And Jon isn't going to start playing the game of thrones and giving support to one king or queen over the other. He has more important things with which to be concerned, just like he has shown time and time again. The one time he decides to put something non-Other first, he got stabbed. Lesson: learned.

It's not that I believe the conflict will be easy to solve, it's just that from my perspective, it started in book 1 already. It's been slow to escalate, but it will escalate in the next book...It can't escalate to a full blown war/invasion though, because that would make the other books sort of pointless fillers... or a very long prologue...and if it doesn't escalate to full blow war/invasion, but rather develops into a 'guerrilla type' war, with small attacks here and there, southerners are not likely to take the threat seriously until they get the experience first hand....and Dany is nowhere near westeros, in fact it looks like GRRM is planning to delay her arrival even more, for what purpose, if not for her to be a late comer to the war?

What story is GRRM telling us? that of a succession crisis or that of a zombie apocalypse? for now, the focus has been the game of thrones, and while the Others might get center stage for the next book, I don't believe that the game of thrones will fall completely off the side of the earth. I don't know that it is even possible since the realm's stability and vanquishing the others probably go hand in hand.....in any case, the dragon horn will imo, have a major role to play and might get Rhaegal and Viserion to westeros, without Dany.

As for the Sansa thing, the idea is that Sansa is the key to the north, the riverlands, and through her cousin, the vale. Aegon landed on Cape wrath and is swiftly moving north...there is plenty of ways these two can meet in the future, from Sansa revealing herself and pressing a claim to Robb's crown, to the Vale declaring for Aegon...

Sansa/Aegon is not a worse bet than Aegon/Arianna. Aegon might feel that Dorne owes him allegiance either way, and Arianne being older and seemingly more emancipated might not earn Jon Connington's approval. He didn't like Elia, he might not like Arianne any better...and Aegon seems quite boyish, I'm not at all certain that Arianne would even want to marry him outside of duty.

ETA: even if the conflict escalates to full blow war -- some wars are quite fast. The 'war' might actually be made of lots of small scale battles/raids, with one or two major battles. Otherwise we're in for another five books.

[UnmaskedLurker]

No. Dany will hear the danger in the North even before coming to Westeros. She and Marwyn will likely meet and there is this whole Benerro-Dany-AAR stuff.

But if you agree that Dany will go North only after the KL (which is one of her objectives) is burned, it obviously means that KL is a much more important objective than the Others for her.

So, she will be no different than Stannis who came to the Wall because he had nowhere else to go after the defeat at Blackwater.

So it sounds like there might be a difference of opinion on when KL is burned and perhaps even why Dany initially heads North--BUT do we all agree that at some people before the final battle, Dany, Jon and Tyrion all team up together as the central figures to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0?

[Mithras]

So it sounds like there might be a difference of opinion on when KL is burned and perhaps even why Dany initially heads North--BUT do we all agree that at some people before the final battle, Dany, Jon and Tyrion all team up together as the central figures to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0?

I think Tyrion will be long dead along with Viserion by that time.

[Greymoon]

So it sounds like there might be a difference of opinion on when KL is burned and perhaps even why Dany initially heads North--BUT do we all agree that at some people before the final battle, Dany, Jon and Tyrion all team up together as the central figures to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0?

:ack: does that answer your question?

[Alia of the knife]

Would a Jon/Arya match even if "only" cousins still be incest. Would whole westeros accept that?? Isnt it condemned in the eyes of men and gods and all that.

They would be apart almost as long as they were together, and he probably won't recognize her, especially if she grows into the beauty she is foreshadowed growing into.

Which at that point, he probably already knows his heritage and realizes they are only cousins.

And the information that Rickards wife was HIS first cousin is new information, and added for a reason.

Honestly, Arya will be so hardened and have donw so much, marrying Jon is apt to be the least offensive thing she does.

[UnmaskedLurker]

:ack: does that answer your question?

I never thought you agreed with a prediction of that scenario.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

So it sounds like there might be a difference of opinion on when KL is burned and perhaps even why Dany initially heads North--BUT do we all agree that at some people before the final battle, Dany, Jon and Tyrion all team up together as the central figures to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0?

Yes but his main point is that Dany will care more about having a crown than she will care about saving the world from the snow and WW's.

Because, ya know, Dany is the worst and only cares about superficial shit like titles and crowns. Hasn't she proved that over and over in SB by staying there and trying to help people instead of coming to claim her crown? wait...... that makes zero sense.

[Greymoon]

I never thought you agreed with a prediction of that scenario.

lol, as long as we are clear on that ;)

[Ser Creighton]

They would be apart almost as long as they were together, and he probably won't recognize her, especially if she grows into the beauty she is foreshadowed growing into.

Which at that point, he probably already knows his heritage and realizes they are only cousins.

And the information that Rickards wife was HIS first cousin is new information, and added for a reason.

Honestly, Arya will be so hardened and have donw so much, marrying Jon is apt to be the least offensive thing she does.

And the aunt/nephew part of that Stark tree is also new information.

Now I also see some taking the information from the unreliable synopsis and disstorting it order to guide the narrative. I also see stuff I have written about HH using only text from the books and seeing it distorted with no evidence for why it is being disstorted, outside of the application of false attributes that do not exist in story in order to guide the narrative. Certain things about the old old 93 treatment are right and certain ones are wrong. Jaime is mentioned as a sort of King in the books, but is not a king. It never happened, no mention of the FM for Arya no mention of the slavers in Meereen (which along with the Others is more than likely inspired by fevre dreams) . No Tyrion at the wall and Jon and Tyrion will have a love triangle with Arya? I also noticed that now incest is ok as long as it is a 11 year old girl and Jon but not Dany and Jon. So child molesting and incest good with someone who is really tour sister, but bad if it is Dany. Nobody thinks there may be some fan distortion coming into play?

Look everyone can think what they want, it just seems kind of biased and distorted to me. I am a huge Dany fan but when I looked at that synopsis, I did not attempt to apply it to the books or to create a theory, I left it as something that is not a true reference point. I did the same thing with the treatment, I did not speculate on it. We already knew there were three major plot lines. I know some think Dany is a red herring and the Others were a red herring, but again that was just distortion. The blue rose on the show, and in the books, in three scenes in the show the blue rose is prominant with Dany, and once in the books. When this was pointed out on another thread, a prominant board member who very much supports the blue rose and has been using it in arguments for years suddenly realized holly shit Dany has had a lot of scenes with blue roses and then said it was not a blue rose. Her eyes suddenly opened. Now I guess we all see what we want to see.

Jon will be king, I have seen lots of fans say oh no I would not wish that on Jon, but now everyone has this great council forcing the throne on Jon. He will refuse it but they will make him take it. They can't make him take it just like they could not make Aemon take it. But no real logic on how it will get to that point. Just here is a list of people that will suddenly name Jon King. Oh and Jon won't because the treatment said so (and I hope he doesn't) but almost everyone else mentioned will, except Sansa and Arya for some, other are killing them off as well.

Maybe I just don't get it. Gendry got compared to Robert, except he is nothing like Robert. He was not raised High born, he does not sleep around, he is considerate for the most part, he is not an alcholic and is not a fan of war. There are Lyanna comparisons to Arya, and there are Lyanna comparisons to Jon. Jon is a lot like Lyanna and only a little like Rhaegar, and the one character in the book compared to Rhaegar and invisioned as Rhaegar is not Jon or Arya. It's obvious in the text who that person is, I didn't write the books but I know when a comparison is drawn, stated and shown by the author. I am not sure who will end up with who and who will live, and all that, and maybe I am the one guiding the narrative, but I like to think I very much try not too.

I do have this problem seeing this GC forcing Jon to be king it seems very fan oriented in order to keep Jon as noble as possible and Arya and Jon falling in love given her age and there prior 9 years together. Seems a little creepy to marry a 11-12 year old girl who you held as a baby and is by all rights your sister.

Either way I guess in a 1 1/2 we will have a much better idea about all of this. Honestly I don't want to be a jerk either I hope everyone gets what they want out of the story. For me it's very simple I hope the Others get stopped and a lot of characters survive, and I hope Dany and Arya find peace, (what if he married both, think about it he is a Targ, so not out of the relm of possiblity) I hope Jon gets recognized and finds out about his family, I hope Jaime finds some redemption and peace with his past life and with Bran, I hope Bran walks (I don;t care if it won;t happen I want it to happen.) And hope when the shit hits the fan thatthey all rise to the occasion, I hope Tyrion makes his peace with his demons and becomes accepted. And I hope Sansa dies a horrible agonizing death after she has LF baby and Tyrions baby, and becomes a prostitute until the Hound and Arya torture her to death, cause you know it is going to happen...

Naaah, not really with Sansa, just like to know a flash of rage went across Sansa fans eyes for a second. I and I hope fans sstop trying to kill off Ghost and Sam and everyone else for Jon. Leave Ghost alone and stop killing everyone to make Jon the central figure of everyone elses story. Theon is going to be sacrificed, Arya is, Edric Dayne, Gendry, Dany, Sam, Ghost, Benjen, etc... Ok for fuck sake can we try a bandage first? I mean for the love of god just a couple weeks ago the Author did paraody where he went after people who keep saying he is dead, and compared some fans to Joff. (I NEVER SAID HE WAS DEAD!) If he is not dead we don't need to start killing everyone to bring him back, hell did Thoros die when he did it like 7 times?

Fan: I'll save you Jon just let me start killing people.

Jon: No it'ss cool I will be ok, just need some stitches and maybe Mel.

Fan: You want me to stab Mel?

Jon: No, no, no, ummm just bring her to me.

Fan: So what you are saying is kill Shireen?

Jon: I am not saying that at all, and could you hurry and bring Mel and don't kill her and maybe Val.

Fan: So kill Val, got it.

Jon: NO! Do not kill anyone.

Fan: The baby does not have a name, so the baby is not anyone, so kill the baby.

Jon: Are you fucking nuts, I got enough problems, do not kill anyone or anything.

Fan: Soooooooooo, a Ghost is not really anything at all, it isn't real so kill the wolf.

Jon: If you fucking touch my wolf I will make what Dany did to the slave Masters of Meereen look like a fucking picnic after I am done with you.

Fan: Got it you want me to crucify 163 people to bring you back.

Jon: I didn't go anywhere but you are about to, this is why Martin avoids his fans. You all bitch about people getting killed but in reality you are out to kill everyone.

Fan: Except you, we would never kill you.

Jon: What if I marry Dany?

Fan: Then your dead to me and I will make sure to finish what Marsh started, incest is disgusting.

Jon: What about Sansa or Arya?

Fan: Well that is different they would just be cousins not really incest, first cousins is practically strangers. You may as well be from a different planet.

Jon: Right, you know me and Dany are basically from different countries and actual strang...

Fan: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Jon: Yeah but what if it doe...

Fan: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! If it happens I will burn my books, and kill Ghost, and everyone else.

Jon: You don;t think you may be a bit biased about all this?

Fan: What? A fan? Biased? Who where, tsk, you really are from a different planet, fan latin for both unbiased and always right and or whales vigina. Wait that second one may be from Anchor man.

Jon: What if two fans disagree?

Fan: Well clearly one is a true fan the other is fake, anyone who agrees with me is clearly a true fan. Let me ask you something why would anyone want to be with Dany? Have you seen Emilia Clarke? Perhaps one of the ugliest women ever (actually been stated by some fans on this site)

Jon: She actually seems rather lovely, and really ni...

Fan: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! She is an evil bitch that needs to die. Shall I kill her for you master? Master? Master?

Jon Snow has crawled away to die, slowly, but in peace.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes but his main point is that Dany will care more about having a crown than she will care about saving the world from the snow and WW's.

Because, ya know, Dany is the worst and only cares about superficial shit like titles and crowns. Hasn't she proved that over and over in SB by staying there and trying to help people instead of coming to claim her crown? wait...... that makes zero sense.

Of course, you know I agree with you, but I was trying to focus on the "what" and "when" issues, and was ignoring any differences of opinion regarding any "why" issues. So while I agree with the proposition that Dany is likely to gain the IT before she heads North to participate in the big battle, I agree with you that any "delay" in going North will not be the result of only caring about the IT and not caring about saving the world. It seems obvious to me that most people in Westeros--not just Dany--will fail to recognize the true threat until they cannot ignore it any more. But GRRM clearly intends Dany to be one of the "heroes" in the end, so once she realizes what is truly at stake, she will act accordingly.

[BearQueen87]

Fan: I'll save you Jon just let me start killing people.

Jon: No it'ss cool I will be ok, just need some stitches and maybe Mel.

Fan: You want me to stab Mel?

Jon: No, no, no, ummm just bring her to me.

Fan: So what you are saying is kill Shireen?

Jon: I am not saying that at all, and could you hurry and bring Mel and don't kill her and maybe Val.

Fan: So kill Val, got it.

Jon: NO! Do not kill anyone.

Fan: The baby does not have a name, so the baby is not anyone, so kill the baby.

Jon: Are you fucking nuts, I got enough problems, do not kill anyone or anything.

Fan: Soooooooooo, a Ghost is not really anything at all, it isn't real so kill the wolf.

Jon: If you fucking touch my wolf I will make what Dany did to the slave Masters of Meereen look like a fucking picnic after I am done with you.

Fan: Got it you want me to crucify 163 people to bring you back.

Jon: I didn't go anywhere but you are about to, this is why Martin avoids his fans. You all bitch about people getting killed but in reality you are out to kill everyone.

Fan: Except you, we would never kill you.

Jon: What if I marry Dany?

Fan: Then your dead to me and I will make sure to finish what Marsh started, incest is disgusting.

Jon: What about Sansa or Arya?

Fan: Well that is different they would just be cousins not really incest, first cousins is practically strangers. You may as well be from a different planet.

Jon: Right, you know me and Dany are basically from different countries and actual strang...

Fan: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Jon: Yeah but what if it doe...

Fan: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! If it happens I will burn my books, and kill Ghost, and everyone else.

Jon: You don;t think you may be a bit biased about all this?

Fan: What? A fan? Biased? Who where, tsk, you really are from a different planet, fan latin for both unbiased and always right and or whales vigina. Wait that second one may be from Anchor man.

Jon: What if two fans disagree?

Fan: Well clearly one is a true fan the other is fake, anyone who agrees with me is clearly a true fan. Let me ask you something why would anyone want to be with Dany? Have you seen Emilia Clarke? Perhaps one of the ugliest women ever (actually been stated by some fans on this site)

Jon: She actually seems rather lovely, and really ni...

Fan: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! She is an evil bitch that needs to die. Shall I kill her for you master? Master? Master?

Jon Snow has crawled away to die, slowly, but in peace.

Ser Creighton story time is still my favorite.

[Avalatis]

snip

Nice. So how do you think the "bitter sweet" will play out with the ending? It seems implied a loved character(s) will die for them to win/unite.

[Alia of the knife]

Jon + Arya hints at R+L=J, imo.

Genetically, Jon and Arya are cousins, but emotionally they're (bastard half-)brother and sister. That gives the relationship an incest vibe. Hint Hint. It would be very Targaryen-like of Jon to fall in love with and/or marry his closest living female relative. And it would be very Rhaegar-like of him to fall in love with Arya, because of her similarities to Lyanna. Arya's relationship with Gendry calls to mind the Lyanna-Robert betrothal.

Or Aegon replaces Tyrion, and you have a scenario with Jon that also parallels Bloodravens experience with Bittersteel.

A "brother" he loved: Robb

A "brother" he hated: fAegon/Aegon

A woman he desired: Arya, (or whoever Arya becomes by the time she is fifteen/sixteen).

[addicted to snow]

I believe that Cercei's destruction of King's Landing will Coincide with Dany's Arrival @ King's Landing...

King's Landing & everyone in it will be destroyed... The Smallfolk will blame Dany, the Lords will blame Dany, hell, Dany may even blame Dany...

[Alia of the knife]

snip

Or Martin is making the point the Starks have as many skeletons rattling around in their closets as the Targaryens do.

No, I get it. Twenty years later, the fan base has created their own narrative based on their own theories and character bias's, and of course they have given the amount of time its taken for the book to be resolved.

I sometimes think people forget that the Starks are the Co-stars of the series. They aren't "American Idol," but they do have their own mystique.

Dorne makes a great party town and is a little like Vegas, but I wouldn't want to live there, I could never live in Casterly Rock because of the damp, and I would be allergic to Highgarden.

But everyone has their favorite, and they're heading straight to the fanficiton sites to get it out of their system. Jon+Batgirl= Loki :shocked:

As for Dany, I'm indifferent. I think there are definite parallels on leadership, or learning to lead with Jany, you know, " a song of ice and fire," a saga, a tale.

I even think Rhaegar is being set up for somewhat of a fall in Danys eyes. The level of hero-worship she engages in regarding her brother screams disillusionment on some level to the point she disengages from her family- father, brothers, and Targaryen "greatness" to become her own "master," (you've heard that before- "I will have one mistress here, and no master"), and makes me think of her as more of a catalyst for her dragon family.

She is a bit like a mother/goddess figure, but will always be somewhat detached and solitary, which again, may be why I don't get too attached to her.

I think she is just breezing through, does what fate set her to do, (mother of dragons), and then gone.

Jon/Arya:

No one was more opposed to this than me initially. I wanted Arya to be the one connection to his mother, not the template from which he would choose his women. But Martin was apparently prepared to come straight up out of the gates with just that scenario, and then walked it back to something I think he will subtley introduce, because Jons parentage is the deal breaker that allows it.

And again, I'm speculating this happens at the end of the book which should put Arya at about the same age that Lyanna was when she gave birth to Jon, so they will have been apart for almost as many years as they were together in Winterfell, and living such a life as to have been but a dream compared to the nightmare life they will have experienced apart.

The Arthurian connection between Arya and Morgana are also striking, as well as the the myths of Lilith, especially with Aryas connections to the FM and the possibility any encounter happens by accident in not recognizing each other with much guilt and angst to follow until Jons parentage becomes known and is the relief, which incidently, would not be unlike Rhaegar "unmasking" Lyanna and all the guilt and angst that followed regarding their feelings for one another, and the others in their lives.

(Maybe this is where Jons mystery rival comes in). :dunno:

I am content to let Martin lead the way, no matter where it ends. If he scuttled this trajectory for Jon and Arya, I'm sure she finds her king elsewhere, rules his castle and pinches his children into obedience.