R+L=J v.133

[markg171]

Jon will ally with whomever agrees to bring their troops north. He doesn't have time for these political machinations. Jon and Dany can be "vs" each other all they want after the Ice Zombies are defeated.

Eh, I think he'd ally with his half brother over his aunt if given the choice. He's spent his whole life allying with his half brother. Allying with Aegon would seem natural, while allying with Dany would go against his history.

[BearQueen87]

Eh, I think he'd ally with his half brother over his aunt if given the choice. He's spent his whole life allying with his half brother. Allying with Aegon would seem natural, while allying with Dany would go against his history.

But Jon never been in a position where he has to chose between half brother and aunt--he chose *family* over other things. To his understanding both fAegon and Dany are family; and moreover there were times when he did not chose Robb but chose his duty instead.

[Mithras]

I think Bran is going to be on the Otherside and I think some more "minor" characters will have smaller battles that are still political in nature instead of the "song."

Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Bloodraven showed Bran the Heart of Winter, Bran was reminded of their words and terrified, he woke up and named his direwolf Summer.

Unless George is a liar, this would never work.

[BearQueen87]

Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Bloodraven showed Bran the Heart of Winter, Bran was reminded of their words and terrified, he woke up and named his direwolf Summer.

Unless George is a liar, this would never work.

*shrug*

I had a really long response typed out to you and deleted it because this is RLJ and not the place for Bran and the Others. I've talked about it a lot over in the Bran Re-read if you feel like popping by.

[markg171]

But Jon never been in a position where he has to chose between half brother and aunt--he chose *family* over other things. To his understanding both fAegon and Dany are family; and moreover there were times when he did not chose Robb but chose his duty instead.

While he's never had an aunt, Catelyn was more or less the same thing (your father's family and not "directly" related to you). And he hated Catelyn for making his life hell. If Dany threatens to do the same, I could see him resenting her too and choosing Aegon who he knows he has a direct relation too, over the person he has a lesser relation too.

It might not make sense as it's different situations and Dany might not have any reason to resent Jon, but if she threatens his position or standing, I could see him negatively reacting as it reminds him of Catelyn and what she did.

[Mithras]

I do have this problem seeing this GC forcing Jon to be king it seems very fan oriented in order to keep Jon as noble as possible ...

This already happened in small-scale during the election of the LC. So, your problem is with George, not the fans.

[Arya Targaryen]

And the aunt/nephew part of that Stark tree is also new information.

Now I also see some taking the information from the unreliable synopsis and disstorting it order to guide the narrative. I also see stuff I have written about HH using only text from the books and seeing it distorted with no evidence for why it is being disstorted, outside of the application of false attributes that do not exist in story in order to guide the narrative. Certain things about the old old 93 treatment are right and certain ones are wrong. Jaime is mentioned as a sort of King in the books, but is not a king. It never happened, no mention of the FM for Arya no mention of the slavers in Meereen (which along with the Others is more than likely inspired by fevre dreams) . No Tyrion at the wall and Jon and Tyrion will have a love triangle with Arya? I also noticed that now incest is ok as long as it is a 11 year old girl and Jon but not Dany and Jon. So child molesting and incest good with someone who is really tour sister, but bad if it is Dany. Nobody thinks there may be some fan distortion coming into play?

Look everyone can think what they want, it just seems kind of biased and distorted to me. I am a huge Dany fan but when I looked at that synopsis, I did not attempt to apply it to the books or to create a theory, I left it as something that is not a true reference point. I did the same thing with the treatment, I did not speculate on it. We already knew there were three major plot lines. I know some think Dany is a red herring and the Others were a red herring, but again that was just distortion. The blue rose on the show, and in the books, in three scenes in the show the blue rose is prominant with Dany, and once in the books. When this was pointed out on another thread, a prominant board member who very much supports the blue rose and has been using it in arguments for years suddenly realized holly shit Dany has had a lot of scenes with blue roses and then said it was not a blue rose. Her eyes suddenly opened. Now I guess we all see what we want to see.

You seem to be more than biased at this point.

1) In Westeros, sister-brother and parent-child is considered incest. Nothing else.

2) Therefore neither Jon/Arya nor Jon/Dany is incest.

3) Even if it's true that Jon shares much more DNA with Dany than he shares with Arya

4) Most people on this board still argues against Jon/Arya, because they are emotionally brother-sister.

5) Why is Arya's age a factor in considering incest? The fair way to put the bolded part would be: incest is OK with Jon and his cousin Arya, whom GRRM wanted to fall in love in the first place, but it is not OK between Jon and his aunt Dany. It has nothing to do with how old Arya is. She will grow older in time, you know. And nobody said Jon would bang her while she is still 11. (Just for the record, I think Jon/Dany is OK incest-wise, though Jon/Arya is even more OK)

6) Then again: who said anything about child molesting? It seems as if your main argument against Jon/Arya is that is is wrong because Arya is still a child, and them falling in love would definitely be child molesting on Jon's part. Do you really think this is true? It seems to me that you use such strong accusations because you want to prove your point so badly, but it actually makes it much weaker, as it is obviously not true. Jon would never molest his sister, even if somehow, miraculously, he did fall in love with her while she still is a child. But you know, I don't think they will meet again before Arya is a woman flowered (like, she is 13), and FYI, she is more than able to defend herself against molestation. I know some people have problems seeing a 13 year-old girl as a woman grown, but this is Westeros: Dany married at that age, Sansa is 13 right now, and Sansa-fans consider her to be able to become Rickon's regent because she is practically and adult, and Lyanna was 13 at Harrenhal, when Rhaegar apparentely fell in love with her. IRL it definitely would be different - however, in Westeros it is not unusual.

7) I do have problems with Jon/Dany, but that has nothing to do with incest. I think their personalities won't go together, but I may be wrong. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the story ends with Jon/Dany. I wont like it, but it definitely can happen.

As for the second bolded part: I joined this forum in 2011. I chose the name "Arya Targaryen", because at that point I thought Jon may take the Targ name, and by marrying Arya, she will become Arya Targaryen. I don't think any longer that Jon will become Jon Targaryen, but I've always shipped him with Arya. I still do. That's why I was so happy to learn that it was GRRM's original intention. So I didn't attempt to apply that synopsis to the books - I just noticed all the clues in the books that led me to believe Jon/Arya.

Edit: spelling

[Han Snow]

Jon + Arya hints at R+L=J, imo.

Genetically, Jon and Arya are cousins, but emotionally they're (bastard half-)brother and sister. That gives the relationship an incest vibe. Hint Hint. It would be very Targaryen-like of Jon to fall in love with and/or marry his closest living female relative. And it would be very Rhaegar-like of him to fall in love with Arya, because of her similarities to Lyanna. Arya's relationship with Gendry calls to mind the Lyanna-Robert betrothal.

Only a week ago I thought Arya/Jon shippers were delusional... No offence meant here.

Now, well... I don't.

Lyanna comparisons to Jon. Jon is a lot like Lyanna and only a little like Rhaegar, and the one character in the book compared to Rhaegar and invisioned as Rhaegar is not Jon or Arya. It's obvious in the text who that person is, I didn't write the books but I know when a comparison is drawn, stated and shown by the author. I am not sure who will end up with who and who will live, and all that, and maybe I am the one guiding the narrative, but I like to think I very much try not too.

Yes, Dany is Rhaegar's proxy, Jon Lyanna's. If there is one more meaningful romance in store for Jon before the end, actually same for Dany, I hope it's them. But yeah, a lot of the fanbase wants to poke their eyes out just thinking about the possibility.

[Greymoon]

snip

Is aunt/nephew; uncle/niece not considered incest? is there any aunt/nephew marriages outside of House Targaryen? I don't recall any, but I might be mistaken... the thing is that while cousin marriages are not uncommon in real-world and not considered incest in many cultures, aunt/nephew certainly is....first cousins is generally the closest blood relation allowed.... it would seem strange if GRRM made aunt/nephew generally acceptable in westerosi culture, as he does try to base himself on real-world....

[Mithras]

is there any aunt/nephew marriages outside of House Targaryen?

Serena Stark married her half-uncle Edric Stark and similarly Sansa Stark married her half-uncle Jonnel Stark.

These matches were obviously political, in order to unite two lines of Cregan's children. That is what Starks seem to do all the time. Although they prefer males over the females coming from the elder line, they always try to join the elder female line to the younger male line. Another example is seen in Rickard-Lyarra marriage. Cregan-Lynara match can also be of similar nature.

[Greymoon]

Serena Stark married her half-uncle Edric Stark and similarly Sansa Stark married her half-uncle Jonnel Stark.

These matches were obviously political, in order to unite two lines of Cregan's children. That is what Starks seem to do all the time. Although they prefer males over the females coming from the elder line, they always try to join the elder female line to the younger male line. Another example is seen in Rickard-Lyarra marriage. Cregan-Lynara match can also be of similar nature.

...well, I guess GRRM knows his history better than me...avunculate marriages were 'common' among European royalty...yeah, so Dany/Jon why not... depends on Jon and Aegon's relationship though, because if Jon decides that Aegon is his 'brother', and Dany decides that Aegon is her 'enemy', a marriage between Jon and Dany is not likely to end well...

[Mithras]

...well, I guess GRRM knows his history better than me...avunculate marriages were 'common' among European royalty...yeah, so Dany/Jon why not... depends on Jon and Aegon's relationship though, because if Jon decides that Aegon is his 'brother', and Dany decides that Aegon is her 'enemy', a marriage between Jon and Dany is not likely to end well...

I don't think there is a sensible scenario in which Jon and Dany can marry. The first and foremost obstacle is Jon's vows. Second, there is Jon's thoughts towards Axell (how he stood while his brother was burned) and Viserys' unfortunate death which will be a blackened tale used by Team fAegon Propaganda Machine as we see in Arianne's thoughts.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think there is a sensible scenario in which Jon and Dany can marry. The first and foremost obstacle is Jon's vows. Second, there is Jon's thoughts towards Axell (how he stood while his brother was burned) and Viserys' unfortunate death which will be a blackened tale used by Team fAegon Propaganda Machine as we see in Arianne's thoughts.

Yes but do you not think that Jon might *ask* Dany about Visery's (not so unfortunate) death? I get this line of thought and I do think it's a good reading of that text but do you not think that careful, considerate, polite, curious Jon wouldn't eventually turn to Dany and say, "so, about your brother...?" especially when he learns that Viserys is his uncle. Then Dany can tell him the story of Vaes Dothrak and Jon, who spent quite a bit of time amongst his own version of the Dothraki (who have different customs and laws than those south of the wall that he had to learn to adapt to), will be far more understanding?

The vows I grant are harder but if the GC manages to release him from his vows to make him King, there is no reason why the vows should stand in the way of Jon and any marriage.

[UnmaskedLurker]

But Jon never been in a position where he has to chose between half brother and aunt--he chose *family* over other things. To his understanding both fAegon and Dany are family; and moreover there were times when he did not chose Robb but chose his duty instead.

Do you think Jon will ever actually meet (f)Aegon? Isn't it more likely that he dies at the hands of Dany before Jon ever has a chance to get anywhere near (f)Aegon?

[Greymoon]

I don't think there is a sensible scenario in which Jon and Dany can marry. The first and foremost obstacle is Jon's vows. Second, there is Jon's thoughts towards Axell (how he stood while his brother was burned) and Viserys' unfortunate death which will be a blackened tale used by Team fAegon Propaganda Machine as we see in Arianne's thoughts.

Yes, there's that too -- though only if fAegon abandons the idea of marrying her.... Whatever happens in the next book, the north and wall, Aegon and Lannisters, BwB and Freys...none of them is likely to wait on Dany to show up before the next battle, or before making new sensible alliances.... GRRM hinted at the fact that Dany would spend a great deal of the next book with the dothrakis, by delaying her return to Meereen (thus ultimately, to westeros), GRRM is giving Aegon enough time to gain ground, popularity and the support of some major houses, and the High Septon's blessing.... which would make Dany's arrival in the game a new unwanted destabilizing factor :)

That suits her name too, that basically means 'enlightened chaos, discord.' -- after the Zoroastrian concept of Daena (revelation, insight/enlightenment), and the Greek Goddess Eris (goddess of chaos and discord, sometimes likened to Enyo/Bellona goddess of war). Daena is also religious conscience, and Team R'hllor, Benerro at least, is likely to support Dany...

But we are getting off topic again....

[BearQueen87]

Do you think Jon will ever actually meet (f)Aegon? Isn't it more likely that he dies at the hands of Dany before Jon ever has a chance to get anywhere near (f)Aegon?

Oh I totally agree. Just playing along for the sake of conversation. But no, I think fAegon will die a swift dragon death along with his new bride Arianne.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

... it would seem strange if GRRM made aunt/nephew generally acceptable in westerosi culture, as he does try to base himself on real-world....

Why, in this real world the forum runs in, inter-cousin marriages and uncle-niece/aunt-nephew marriages are not uncommon, especially in families who are either very rich or nobility. It is only very few countries (like the U.S. and Germany afaik) who used to have laws and public opinion against such marriages.

Some middle east cultures seem to have known since antiquity which degree of genetic closeness was dangerous and which was not and had a custom of cross-cousin marriages (the genetically incest-damage-safe version of it) and found that most desirable from all other pairings, and maybe still do, as it had been proven to produce healthy children and keep a family's wealth together.

[Mithras]

Oh I totally agree. Just playing along for the sake of conversation. But no, I think fAegon will die a swift dragon death along with his new bride Arianne.

That would be a waste of investment to Dorne and fAegon.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Do you think Jon will ever actually meet (f)Aegon? Isn't it more likely that he dies at the hands of Dany before Jon ever has a chance to get anywhere near (f)Aegon?

I think a lot of us forget a few things sometimes when discussing the future books.

GRRM has said that after Tommen there will be 'many more asses on the IT before the end'. So I really don't think it will just go straight from Tommen to fAegon to Dany/Jon. I think Stannis and possibly even an ironborn (Euron) will get their day before the final Tagaryen takes back the throne.

[Alia of the knife]

I think a lot of us forget a few things sometimes when discussing the future books.

GRRM has said that after Tommen there will be 'many more asses on the IT before the end'. So I really don't think it will just go straight from Tommen to fAegon to Dany/Jon. I think Stannis and possibly even an ironborn (Euron) will get their day before the final Tagaryen takes back the throne.

I'll be dead before this book is over. :(