R+L=J v.133

[Greymoon]

Why, in this real world the forum runs in, inter-cousin marriages and uncle-niece/aunt-nephew marriages are not uncommon, especially in families who are either very rich or nobility. It is only very few countries (like the U.S. and Germany afaik) who used to have laws and public opinion against such marriages.

Some middle east cultures seem to have known since antiquity which degree of genetic closeness was dangerous and which was not and had a custom of cross-cousin marriages (the genetically incest-damage-safe version of it) and found that most desirable from all other pairings, and maybe still do, as it had been proven to produce healthy children and keep a family's wealth together.

yes, I was mistaken see post number 71.

[Mithras]

I think a lot of us forget a few things sometimes when discussing the future books.

GRRM has said that after Tommen there will be 'many more asses on the IT before the end'. So I really don't think it will just go straight from Tommen to fAegon to Dany/Jon. I think Stannis and possibly even an ironborn (Euron) will get their day before the final Tagaryen takes back the throne.

AFAIK, this is the only place George said something like that. After Sansa and Arya, George speaks which starts around 53:40

1. They were talking about the show

2. Joff was still alive back then.

3. George said "a few people".

[BearQueen87]

That would be a waste of investment to Dorne and fAegon.

Whoever said Dorne or fAegon were logical?

I'll be dead before this book is over. :(

NOOOOOOO! Someday our book will come.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think a lot of us forget a few things sometimes when discussing the future books.

GRRM has said that after Tommen there will be 'many more asses on the IT before the end'. So I really don't think it will just go straight from Tommen to fAegon to Dany/Jon. I think Stannis and possibly even an ironborn (Euron) will get their day before the final Tagaryen takes back the throne.

I think Myrcella might take the throne after Tommen dies, but I doubt Stannis ever does (his army is stuck pretty far away) and I really doubt an Ironborn ever take the IT (even thought it sounds like it should have been made for them). If we believe that Cersei will eventually burn down KL, there cannot be that many people in the IT between the last Baratheon/Lannister and the destruction of KL. Presumably it is the death of her children and loss of the throne that motivates her to take such action.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

AFAIK, this is the only place George said something like that. After Sansa and Arya, George speaks which starts around 53:40

1. They were talking about the show

2. Joff was still alive back then.

3. George said "a few people".

No George was speaking about the story in general, not the show.

He said "I know who will be on the iron throne at the end, so I better not tell. But there will be a few people sitting on it before the end." This was after DwD was published, so he means a few more after Tommen.

To me that implies more than just fAegon and Dany/Jon. That's what I think anyway, I think Stannis and Euron will both have their day at one point or another, definitely Stannis.

[Mithras]

No George was speaking about the story in general, not the show.

He said "I know who will be on the iron throne at the end, so I better not tell. But there will be a few people sitting on it before the end." This was after DwD was published, so he means a few more after Tommen.

To me that implies more than just fAegon and Dany/Jon. That's what I think anyway, I think Stannis and Euron will both have their day at one point or another, definitely Stannis.

Then why did Sansa say that she wants Robb on the IT?

ETA: Lol, I was going to say Sophie.

[Ser Leftwich]

No George was speaking about the story in general, not the show.

He said "I know who will be on the iron throne at the end, so I better not tell. But there will be a few people sitting on it before the end." This was after DwD was published, so he means a few more after Tommen.

To me that implies more than just fAegon and Dany/Jon. That's what I think anyway, I think Stannis and Euron will both have their day at one point or another, definitely Stannis.

The ironborn taking the Red Keep after KL is burned down could be interesting. Even if the city falls, the Red Keep could still be a formidable fortification and reasonably intact.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think Myrcella might take the throne after Tommen dies, but I doubt Stannis ever does (his army is stuck pretty far away) and I really doubt an Ironborn ever take the IT (even thought it sounds like it should have been made for them). If we believe that Cersei will eventually burn down KL, there cannot be that many people in the IT between the last Baratheon/Lannister and the destruction of KL. Presumably it is the death of her children and loss of the throne that motivates her to take such action.

:) It is fun to speculate.

I am not in the line of thinking that Cersei will burn down KL, she already burnt the great stone tower after the great stone beast (Tyrion) took wing. It would be a bit redundant to have her try to burn down KL again, plus why would she succeed where Aerys failed? He was even crazier than her, if anyone was going to burn it down he would have.

Plus we know there is foreshadowing of snow and ice in KL, what would be the point of snow on a burnt down pile of rubble, what is the significance of that?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Then why did Sansa say that she wants Robb on the IT?

ETA: Lol, I was going to say Sophie.

Well the actors are talking about the only thing they know, the show. In that interview alone, every single one of them admits to not having read the books except their own chapters. But George was speaking about the story in general.

LOL, Peter Dinklage even says, he likes this fantasy story because it is not like regular fantasies with unicorns and stuff. FAIL

[UnmaskedLurker]

:) It is fun to speculate.

I am not in the line of thinking that Cersei will burn down KL, she already burnt the great stone tower after the great stone beast (Tyrion) took wing. It would be a bit redundant to have her try to burn down KL again, plus why would she succeed where Aerys failed? He was even crazier than her, if anyone was going to burn it down he would have.

Plus we know there is foreshadowing of snow and ice in KL, what would be the point of snow on a burnt down pile of rubble, what is the significance of that?

As to Cersei burning down KL--I thought we had "Chekov's wildfire". Why let us know that there is all that stuff stored there and set by Aerys to take the place down if it will never actually happen?

As to the foreshadowing of snow, I thought it was snow at the Trident--not KL, but I could be misremembering.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

As to Cersei burning down KL--I thought we had "Chekov's wildfire". Why let us know that there is all that stuff stored there and set by Aerys to take the place down if it will never actually happen?

As to the foreshadowing of snow, I thought it was snow at the Trident--not KL, but I could be misremembering.

But I thought the wildfyre was directly under the Red Keep, not the housing district of KL. I guess I thought the wildfyre served its purpose during the Battle of Blackwater, but I guess there is some left stored.....I still just think it would be weird for Cersei to burn the place down twice.

As far as the foreshadowing goes, I thought there was something in Dany or Bran's visions..looking now but not finding anything...maybe that was just the show. But honestly that bit of foreshadowing on the show, when Dany has her HOTU vision and she sees the throne room covered in snow, for me, it stretched across the show into the books.

If the White Walkers are not powerful enough to make it snow in KL then they are a joke :drunk: .

That would be the ultimate sign of long night for me, KL under 10-20 ft of snow.

[Ser Leftwich]

But I thought the wildfyre was directly under the Red Keep, not the housing district of KL. I guess I thought the wildfyre served its purpose during the Battle of Blackwater, but I guess there is some left stored.....I still just think it would be weird for Cersei to burn the place down twice.

"Only last year, two hundred jars were discovered in a storeroom beneath the Great Sept of Baelor." - ACoK p. 309

"Another cache of Lord Rossart’s was found, more than three hundred jars. Under the Dragonpit!" - ACoK p. 716

They found wildfire in a number of places around KL. All of it might not have been found.

Cersei might not try to burn down KL on purpose. She might try her own plan similar to Tyrion's, only hers will go wrong and spread across KL.

[DarkSister1001]

"Only last year, two hundred jars were discovered in a storeroom beneath the Great Sept of Baelor." - ACoK p. 309

"Another cache of Lord Rossart’s was found, more than three hundred jars. Under the Dragonpit!" - ACoK p. 716

They found wildfire in a number of places around KL. All of it might not have been found.

Cersei might not try to burn down KL on purpose. She might try her own plan similar to Tyrion's, only hers will go wrong and spread across KL.

Could be a little funny if Dany accidently burned down the Red Keep ultimately fulfilling her crazy father's last order.

[Avalatis]

As to Cersei burning down KL--I thought we had "Chekov's wildfire". Why let us know that there is all that stuff stored there and set by Aerys to take the place down if it will never actually happen?

As to the foreshadowing of snow, I thought it was snow at the Trident--not KL, but I could be misremembering.

Because it was a plot tool to redeem Jaime from one of his perceived dishonorable acts. It also tied in with Tyrion's plan to burn Stannis' fleet. It's not like they talked about this stuff and then it was never used by the plot elsewhere.

[MtnLion]

That would be the ultimate sign of long night for me, KL under 10-20 ft of snow.

How about the Blackwater frozen over? That happened during the winter following the Tourney at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring.

[Greymoon]

As to Cersei burning down KL--I thought we had "Chekov's wildfire". Why let us know that there is all that stuff stored there and set by Aerys to take the place down if it will never actually happen?

As to the foreshadowing of snow, I thought it was snow at the Trident--not KL, but I could be misremembering.

Cersei burning down KL, by accident or not, might happen sooner than expected... it could happen while KL is under siege by Aegon for ex.

I'm assuming the foreshadowing of 'snow' in KL stems from the HotU TV version. The whole throne room, Iron Throne included, is covered in snow, which I took to mean as Jon Snow, sits on the Iron Throne. I understood that particular scene to be the 'stand in' for the blue flower growing from a chick of ice vision. The door to the great hall is the gate of the Wall, and the sort of flower in the center of the seven pointed star on the window pane is painted in blue, instead of red.

In the book version Dany has a dream where she sees herself fighting on the trident in Rhaegar's stead, and the Usurper is armored in ice. As far a foreshadowing goes this either says 1) Dany will fight Others and the Others will get as far as the Trident, or, 2) Dany will fight Jon, on the trident. In Jon's dream, Jon is armored in black ice.

[lojzelote]

5) Why is Arya's age a factor in considering incest? The fair way to put the bolded part would be: incest is OK with Jon and his cousin Arya, whom GRRM wanted to fall in love in the first place, but it is not OK between Jon and his aunt Dany. It has nothing to do with how old Arya is. She will grow older in time, you know. And nobody said Jon would bang her while she is still 11. (Just for the record, I think Jon/Dany is OK incest-wise, though Jon/Arya is even more OK)

6) Then again: who said anything about child molesting? It seems as if your main argument against Jon/Arya is that is is wrong because Arya is still a child, and them falling in love would definitely be child molesting on Jon's part. Do you really think this is true? It seems to me that you use such strong accusations because you want to prove your point so badly, but it actually makes it much weaker, as it is obviously not true. Jon would never molest his sister, even if somehow, miraculously, he did fall in love with her while she still is a child. But you know, I don't think they will meet again before Arya is a woman flowered (like, she is 13), and FYI, she is more than able to defend herself against molestation. I know some people have problems seeing a 13 year-old girl as a woman grown, but this is Westeros: Dany married at that age, Sansa is 13 right now, and Sansa-fans consider her to be able to become Rickon's regent because she is practically and adult, and Lyanna was 13 at Harrenhal, when Rhaegar apparentely fell in love with her. IRL it definitely would be different - however, in Westeros it is not unusual.

She'd better be at least 14:

“She’s too skinny,” Viserys said. His hair, the same silver-blond as hers, had been pulled back tightly behind his head and fastened with a dragonbone brooch. It was a severe look that emphasized the hard, gaunt lines of his face. He rested his hand on the hilt of the sword that Illyrio had lent him, and said, “Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?”

“She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal, “ Illyrio told him, not for the first time. “Look at her. That silvergold hair, those purple eyes... she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt... and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo.” When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.

“I suppose,” her brother said doubtfully. “The savages have queer tastes. Boys, horses, sheep...”

“Best not suggest this to Khal Drogo,” Illyrio said.

“How old are you, Sansa?” asked Tyrion, after a moment.

“Thirteen,” she said, “when the moon turns.”

“Gods have mercy.” The dwarf took another swallow of wine. “Well, talk won’t make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady? if it please you?”

There's also SSM that men usually wait until the bride's 15 or older until they first bed her.

[Ygrain]

Because it was a plot tool to redeem Jaime from one of his perceived dishonorable acts. It also tied in with Tyrion's plan to burn Stannis' fleet. It's not like they talked about this stuff and then it was never used by the plot elsewhere.

Which doesn○t prevent further use, though. Jaime names multiple places under which wildfire was stashed, then we hear of these stashes found in some places - we never know if all of it was found. Red Keep is never mentioned among the places where "Aerys' fruit" was discovered, yet Jaime mentions is as one of the locations, which leaves us with at least one stash unaccounted for.There is this theory that the part of the dungeon where Varys puts out the light when he is bringing Tyrion through it is actually the location of this stash, the cold and damp air definitely fits the safety conditions for keeping wildfire.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Because it was a plot tool to redeem Jaime from one of his perceived dishonorable acts. It also tied in with Tyrion's plan to burn Stannis' fleet. It's not like they talked about this stuff and then it was never used by the plot elsewhere.

Which doesn○t prevent further use, though. Jaime names multiple places under which wildfire was stashed, then we hear of these stashes found in some places - we never know if all of it was found. Red Keep is never mentioned among the places where "Aerys' fruit" was discovered, yet Jaime mentions is as one of the locations, which leaves us with at least one stash unaccounted for.There is this theory that the part of the dungeon where Varys puts out the light when he is bringing Tyrion through it is actually the location of this stash, the cold and damp air definitely fits the safety conditions for keeping wildfire.

Through Feast, there are too many references of Cersei being obsessed by fire: her wanting the moth to get into the flame, the burning of the Tower, Jaime telling her she reminded her of Aerys, and her comments of how she wanted to move the court to a white city, away from the stench (spelling?), which is exactly what Aerys wanted to do (is in TWOIAF).

This is GRRM's m.o. of presenting things to come, according to his editor: it's presented in three acts:

1. Aerys' wildfire is mentioned to not have been completely found.

2. Cersei is presented to be obsessed with Fire and similar to Aerys.

3. Boom

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

She'd better be at least 14:

There's also SSM that men usually wait until the bride's 15 or older until they first bed her.

Usually is not always. You see that Tywin wanted Tyrion to bed Sansa a mere matter of days before her 13th nameday. In the story, we ser plenty of people getting married at the age of 13, !nd occasionally even younger. During peace times, you can afford to wait, usually, until the bride is a bit older. But during war, or oher conflicts, that isn't always the case.