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R+L=J v.133


Jon Weirgaryen

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Through Feast, there are too many references of Cersei being obsessed by fire: her wanting the moth to get into the flame, the burning of the Tower, Jaime telling her she reminded her of Aerys, and her comments of how she wanted to move the court to a white city, away from the stench (spelling?), which is exactly what Aerys wanted to do (is in TWOIAF).

This is GRRM's m.o. of presenting things to come, according to his editor: it's presented in three acts:

1. Aerys' wildfire is mentioned to not have been completely found.

2. Cersei is presented to be obsessed with Fire and similar to Aerys.

3. Boom

Couldn't agree more :-)

Usually is not always. You see that Tywin wanted Tyrion to bed Sansa a mere matter of days before her 13th nameday. In the story, we ser plenty of people getting married at the age of 13, !nd occasionally even younger. During peace times, you can afford to wait, usually, until the bride is a bit older. But during war, or oher conflicts, that isn't always the case.

IIRC, Lady Rohanne was married and pregnant at 13.

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Couldn't agree more :-)

IIRC, Lady Rohanne was married and pregnant at 13.

Indeed, her second marriage, even.

Two other examples:

Princess Helaena Targaryen was 13 when she got married and became pregnant, and Rhaella had her first child by the time she was either 13 or 14 years old, and thus had been at least 9 months younger (aged 12, 13 or 14, depending on where her nameday falls, and where Rhaegars) upon her marriage. She could have even been younger, seeing as we don't know how long into the marriage the pregnancy began, but IIRC, Rhaegar was born very early into the marriage.

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Through Feast, there are too many references of Cersei being obsessed by fire: her wanting the moth to get into the flame, the burning of the Tower, Jaime telling her she reminded her of Aerys, and her comments of how she wanted to move the court to a white city, away from the stench (spelling?), which is exactly what Aerys wanted to do (is in TWOIAF).

This is GRRM's m.o. of presenting things to come, according to his editor: it's presented in three acts:

1. Aerys' wildfire is mentioned to not have been completely found.

2. Cersei is presented to be obsessed with Fire and similar to Aerys.

3. Boom

:agree:

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Usually is not always. You see that Tywin wanted Tyrion to bed Sansa a mere matter of days before her 13th nameday. In the story, we ser plenty of people getting married at the age of 13, !nd occasionally even younger. During peace times, you can afford to wait, usually, until the bride is a bit older. But during war, or oher conflicts, that isn't always the case.

It's one thing to get married, another to consumate the marriage. Princesses might have been married of before the age of ten, but that doesn't mean their husband immediately took them to bed. As for the Tyrion/Sansa scene, it shows that Tyrion doesn't like the idea he should fuck girl that young. Tywin is a monster.

Anyway, people should watch Leon or Pretty Baby starring Natalie Portman and Brooke Shields respectively, both 12-13 years old at the time, both heavily sexualized. They still have much closer to being little girls than young women.

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Which doesn○t prevent further use, though. Jaime names multiple places under which wildfire was stashed, then we hear of these stashes found in some places - we never know if all of it was found. Red Keep is never mentioned among the places where "Aerys' fruit" was discovered, yet Jaime mentions is as one of the locations, which leaves us with at least one stash unaccounted for.There is this theory that the part of the dungeon where Varys puts out the light when he is bringing Tyrion through it is actually the location of this stash, the cold and damp air definitely fits the safety conditions for keeping wildfire.

I don't disagree. I just don't think this constitutes a "chekov's gun". The wildfire was already necessary for the plot at hand else Jaime's back story and Tyrion's use of it wouldn't have made any sense. Yes it can still be used (as the Cercei foreshadowing implies), but claiming it has to be used because of Chekov's gun doesn't really add up.

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It's one thing to get married, another to consumate the marriage. Princesses might have been married of before the age of ten, but that doesn't mean their husband immediately took them to bed. As for the Tyrion/Sansa scene, it shows that Tyrion doesn't like the idea he should fuck girl that young. Tywin is a monster.

Anyway, people should watch Leon or Pretty Baby starring Natalie Portman and Brooke Shields respectively, both 12-13 years old at the time, both heavily sexualized. They still have much closer to being little girls than young women.

I don't really get the point you are trying to make? Perhaps you can elaborate?

The examples I gave of Princesses (Helaena, Rhaella), were both consumated at the age of 13 (Helaena) and 12/13/14 (Rhaella). Both marriages easily could have waited a few more years, easily, but it was decided to have these girls wed at this young age. Ygrain provided the example of lady Rohanne, married and pregnant at the age of 12. So clearly, it does happen, and not just for Tywin-like reasons.

Should it be better to wait until the bride is a few years older? Yes, definitely. For multiple reasons.

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My one pet peeve on these forums besides the arrogance that sometimes permeates these debates, (at least in the certainy of ones own guess work), is the taking out of context, or the lack of perspective regarding the subject of age, because its always viewed through the prism of a modern lense.



Lets be realisitic, comparing a sixteen year old, battle-hardened male from the fourteenth century to a sixteen year-old modern male is completely without comparison, especially in a peaceful, comfortable society. The sixteen year old MAN my dad was, is different from the sixteen year old today.


I literally watched a man child the other day walk out into traffic without looking, without right-of-way, head down in his phone with ear plugs tuned out, and not paying attention with zero common sense, and the modern girls aren't much better.



And yes, I understand this is not the case for all.



There was NO adolescence in the Medival period. This is a luxery and a modern concept, and young noble girls actually had less freedom than common girls because of their value to their House, so they were married off sometimes in the cradle.


Its true that most preferred to wait until the bride was at least fifteen, (another factor thay may have played into Rhaegar waiting a year to take Lyanna even if he wanted her sooner), but the reality is also that sometimes they didn't wait, and a sense of urgency because of battle, or securing property through offspring would also be a factor.



Hell, the notorious Elizabeth of Bathory seduced a servant in her husbands castle and later gave birth- AT THIRTEEN. The servant was later fed to her eighteen year old husbands dogs, and the babe, a girl, no one knows.



The average age of life expectancy for a woman was mid thirties with variances of course, but there was a whole town where the average age was fifteen, because all of the old and the adults were dead.



Young noble girls were raised from the moment they could walk to learn to run a household, which in those days was tantamount to running a corporation, and grew with the knowledge the home they were born in would sadly, never really be their "home," but the home they would marry into.


They just brought their bloodline in terms of claims, which is what Tywin was really after.



This from GRRM on CONTEXT:



Childhood:


"The concept of the teenage years is a relatively modern invention. When you reached sexual maturity, then you could have sex and be an adult. We still have relics of that with coming-of-age ceremonies: "Today, you are a man." You're 13, but today, you are a man. No, you're not! [Laughs] Don't go out and try and buy liquor, get married, or vote! We should have bar mitzvahs at 21. Catholics should get confirmed at 21. In Westeros, I went with 16 — but there were actual cases of people in history younger than 16 who had significant roles. Charles the XII of Sweden was 15 years old when he was crowned and leading armies across Europe. He was partly the model for Robb Stark because he was a great general, a great tactical leader. Won all the battles, lost the war. Actually, Charles XII lost the last battle, the most important one. Maybe because he was injured!" - GRRM.



Marriage:



Marriage was a form of political alliance. It was a way to cement a political alliance – one of the ways to bind to families together and hopefully make peace between them or to establish that… they would be allies against a third common enemy. You didn’t want your sons or daughters, if you were a lord, marrying for love. That was, that was insane… If you had a vassal whose loyalty you questioned, maybe you married him to one of your daughters and thereby bind him more closely to the family. If you have a rival you’d been at war with and now you make peace, you marry a daughter to his son…” -GRRM



GRRM is reflecting the facts of history, (he minored in history), and those arguing these concepts do so in CONTEXT. The word "teen," as we understand and use the word only originated in the 1940's.



Of course these ideas are gross to us, because we do understand that in our time, a tweny-six year old is barely an adult. I didn't marry until I was forty even though I was with the man I married for almost fifteen years prior. But, I wasn't ready until I was forty, because I had that luxury and that worked for me. :bang:


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I don't really get the point you are trying to make? Perhaps you can elaborate?

The examples I gave of Princesses (Helaena, Rhaella), were both consumated at the age of 13 (Helaena) and 12/13/14 (Rhaella). Both marriages easily could have waited a few more years, easily, but it was decided to have these girls wed at this young age. Ygrain provided the example of lady Rohanne, married and pregnant at the age of 12. So clearly, it does happen, and not just for Tywin-like reasons.

Should it be better to wait until the bride is a few years older? Yes, definitely. For multiple reasons.

My point is that a 17/18-year-old pining for a 12/13-year-old is unnatural and I can't buy it as a romance. Political marriage is another matter... but then also it is unusual to get up to it so soon.

I didn't actually read your later posts, I reacted to your answer on my previous comment. But if you ask me for reasons in those cases, then it's because Aegon II and Aerys II were both, eh, lusty (I mean, Aegon impregnated two other women the same year Helaena first conceived, and we've heard plenty of Aerys' whoring), and Rohanne was her father's means of getting male grandchildren to continue the line, he didn't seem to care much about her well-being.

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My point is that a 17/18-year-old pining for a 12/13-year-old is unnatural and I can't buy it as a romance. Political marriage is another matter... but then also it is unusual to get up to it so soon.

I didn't actually read your later posts, I reacted to your answer on my previous comment. But if you ask me for reasons in those cases, then it's because Aegon II and Aerys II were both, eh, lusty (I mean, Aegon impregnated two other women the same year Helaena first conceived, and we've heard plenty of Aerys' whoring), and Rohanne was her father's means of getting male grandchildren to continue the line, he didn't seem to care much about her well-being.

You know, it's amazing what is considered "unnatural" when a concept is foreign to people (see homosexuality, interracial marriages, transgender individuals). When i was 14, i liked a 10 year old little sister of a friend. It was too big an age gap at the time, so i never did anything about it (and we moved after a year). That's your unnatural age gap, at a younger age.

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I don't disagree. I just don't think this constitutes a "chekov's gun". The wildfire was already necessary for the plot at hand else Jaime's back story and Tyrion's use of it wouldn't have made any sense. Yes it can still be used (as the Cercei foreshadowing implies), but claiming it has to be used because of Chekov's gun doesn't really add up.

I think I was the one to first bring up the Chekov principle regarding the wildfire, so I will try to defend it here. I understand that the wildfire was important for both the Jaime and Tyrion story lines. But arguably, the references to the stash keep mounting. The readers may be distracted from assuming it will be used later by giving a use in the books for Jaime and Tyrion. But why have the other references to uncovering hidden stores. Something more seems to be setting up. I just don't see all that wildfire going to "waste" and never coming into play in the story. Perhaps it gets used for a different purpose (maybe used against the Others), but I cannot see it going unused the remainder of the series.

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I'm 50/50 about that. I would want to see him stopping Cersei by killing her, but at the same time, I want to see Cersei going all Nero on KL.

I wouldn't. I am ready for someone to put a lid on her and lock in a room forever. Plus so many thousands of people will burn to death if she does this.

I do agree there has been foreshadowing of her being obsessed with fire. But her death has also been foreshadowed/prophecized. And history repeats itself, so if she does try to seriously burn down KL I am in the camp of hoping she will be stopped by Jaime just like he stopped Aerys.

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My one pet peeve on these forums besides the arrogance that sometimes permeates these debates, (at least in the certainy of ones own guess work), is the taking out of context, or the lack of perspective have when they try and talk about the subject of age through the prism of a modern lense.

Lets be realisitic, comparing a sixteen year old, battle-hardened male from the fourteenth century to a sixteen year-old modern male is completely without comparison, especially in a peaceful, comfortable society. The sixteen year old MAN my dad was, is different from the sixteen year old today.

I literally watched a man child the other day walk out into traffic without looking, without right-of-way, head down in his phone with ear plugs tuned out, and not paying attention with zero common sense, and the modern girls aren't much better.

And yes, I understand this is not the case for all.

There was NO adolescence in the Medival period. This is a luxery and a modern concept, and young noble girls actually had less freedom than common girls because of their value to their House, so they were married off sometimes in the cradle.

Its true that most preferred to wait until the bride was at least fifteen, (another factor thay may have played into Rhaegar waiting a year to take Lyanna even if he wanted her sooner), but the reality is also that sometimes they didn't wait, and a sense of urgency because of battle, or securing property through offspring would also be a factor.

Hell, the notorious Elizabeth of Bathory seduced a servant in her husbands castle and later gave birth- AT THIRTEEN. The servant was later fed to her eighteen year old husbands dogs, and the babe, a girl, no one knows.

The average age of life expectancy for a woman was mid thirties with variances of course, but there was a whole town where the average age was fifteen, because all of the old and the adults were basically dead.

Young noble girls were raised from the moment they could walk to learn to run a household, which in those days was tantamount to running a corporation, and grew with the knowledge the home they were born in would sadly, never really be their "home," but the home they would marry into.

They just brought their bloodline in terms of claims, which is what Tywin was really after.

This from GRRM on CONTEXT:

Childhood:

"The concept of the teenage years is a relatively modern invention. When you reached sexual maturity, then you could have sex and be an adult. We still have relics of that with coming-of-age ceremonies: "Today, you are a man." You're 13, but today, you are a man. No, you're not! [Laughs] Don't go out and try and buy liquor, get married, or vote! We should have bar mitzvahs at 21. Catholics should get confirmed at 21. In Westeros, I went with 16 — but there were actual cases of people in history younger than 16 who had significant roles. Charles the XII of Sweden was 15 years old when he was crowned and leading armies across Europe. He was partly the model for Robb Stark because he was a great general, a great tactical leader. Won all the battles, lost the war. Actually, Charles XII lost the last battle, the most important one. Maybe because he was injured!" - GRRM.

Marriage:

Marriage was a form of political alliance. It was a way to cement a political alliance – one of the ways to bind to families together and hopefully make peace between them or to establish that… they would be allies against a third common enemy. You didn’t want your sons or daughters, if you were a lord, marrying for love. That was, that was insane… If you had a vassal whose loyalty you questioned, maybe you married him to one of your daughters and thereby bind him more closely to the family. If you have a rival you’d been at war with and now you make peace, you marry a daughter to his son…” -GRRM

GRRM is reflecting the facts of history, (he minored in history), and those arguing these concepts do so in CONTEXT. And the word "teen," or "teenager" literally did not exist in those days.

Of course these ideas are gross to us, because we do understand that in our time, a tweny-six year old is barely an adult. I didn't marry until I was forty even though I was with the man I married for almost fifteen years prior. But, I wasn't ready until I was forty, because my world is vastly different. :bang:

I believe that noblewomen getting married and pregnant at early teens is a modern misconception. Whenever I watched a document on the War of Roses, it was stressed that Margaret Beaufort was unusually young and the experience must have been terribly traumatic for her and scarred her for the rest of her life. In fact, I've read about contemporary reports, in which Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour were both praised for being in the bloom of their childbearing years and therefore ideal candidates to become the mother to the next heir to the throne... when they were in their late twenties.

"The average age" of thirty is so low because children who didn't live past infancy were counted in, and there were certainly many children who didn't make it past infancy. Once you lived past infancy, you actually had a pretty good chance to reach your midlife crisis, lol.

Anyhow, I don't know about "our time", but I'd say that any normal man would prefer fully developed women to barely pubescent girls at any given time in history, at least as far love and sex are concerned... politics are quite another thing.

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You know, it's amazing what is considered "unnatural" when a concept is foreign to people (see homosexuality, interracial marriages, transgender individuals). When i was 14, i liked a 10 year old little sister of a friend. It was too big an age gap at the time, so i never did anything about it (and we moved after a year). That's your unnatural age gap, at a younger age.

Well, unless she was unusually developed for her age, both physically and mentally, then it's... weird, like really, really weird.

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Finally made my way here, lol.

I wonder if Jaime will be put back into the position of killing the monarch in order to prevent the burning of KL...

NOW it feels like an RLJ thread :)

I wouldn't. I am ready for someone to put a lid on her and lock in a room forever. Plus so many thousands of people will burn to death if she does this.

I do agree there has been foreshadowing of her being obsessed with fire. But her death has also been foreshadowed/prophecized. And history repeats itself, so if she does try to seriously burn down KL I am in the camp of hoping she will be stopped by Jaime just like he stopped Aerys.

The reason why I'm more than okay with Cersei going all Nero on KL (because booooooo more nameless peasants dying!!) is that would show that madness isn't localized to *just* Targs which is how it often gets discussed.

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When I was twelve, one of my classmates had a boyfriend who was nineteen. NINETEEN. What did he see in her (who wasn't particularly pretty or smart)? No idea. But there you have. When I was 15 I also dated a 20 years old guy. So... :dunno:

LOL I had my first period at fourteen. This talk of screwing girls under that age makes me feel sick.

I had a 14 years old classmate who would have us believe that she had an 18 years old boyfriend... we thought she was talking BS... but at fifteen she had a baby and since it was clear from her age that he must have sexed her up before the age of consent (which is 15 over here), she claimed it was a one night stand and the daddy was a nameless stranger. But to be fair, she was one of those exceptions, she looked she could be an 18-year-old herself.

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The reason why I'm more than okay with Cersei going all Nero on KL (because booooooo more nameless peasants dying!!) is that would show that madness isn't localized to *just* Targs which is how it often gets discussed.

Ah! well that is a good reason lol. But all you need for confirmation of that is Cersei's chapters in FFC. Here are some of my choice favorites.

FFC-“Who can say what that vile dwarf may have told, or to whom? Uncle Kevan is the least of it. The High Septon…Tyrion raised him to the crown, when the fat one died. He may know as well. You must be Tommen’s hand. I do not trust Mace Tyrell. What if he had a hand in Father’s death? He may have been conspiring with Tyrion. The imp could be on his way to Highgarden…Be my hand and we’ll rule the seven kingdoms together, like a king and queen.”

“You have wasted my time and slain an innocent man. I should have your heads off.” But if she did, the next man might hesitate and let the imp slip the net. She would pile dead dwarfs ten feet high before she let that happen.

“Tyrion will not kill the same way twice. He is too cunning for that. He could be under the floor even now, listening to every word we say and making plans to open Tommen’s throat.”

Cersei refused Mace Tyrell as well, and later Lancel. The others took the hint, and no one else approached her. Our fast friends and loyal lords. She could not even trust the westermen, her father’s sworn swords and bannermen. Not if her own uncle was conspiring with her enemies….

When Senelle appeared to fill her wine cup, the queen had to resist an urge to take her by the throat and throttle her. Do not presume to smile at me, you treacherous little bitch. You will be begging me for mercy before I’m done with you.

She is a total loon/psycho 100%, with or without burning down a city.

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