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Illyrio in the House of Black and White?


Aerys Frost

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During an Arya chapter in Dance, there's a meeting at the House of Black and White where the FM are trying to distribute contracts. It's mentioned that a lord and a fat man are the only two who entered through the front door.



My question would be is this Illyrio and Varys? Arya had encountered the two in GoT when they're under the Red Keep, plotting, but it was dark, Varys is a mummer, etc.



Could Varys be the Lord and Illyrio the fat man? Not that I have any actual follow up or motive as to why this could be, it's just that these two FM were specifically mentioned when they didn't have to be.



Just curious.


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Like I said, I don't have much of anything to back it up, I just thought it could be a topic for discussion. This is still during the period between A Storm of Swords and Dance where Varys is MIA. Not much of anything is reported on Illyrio after Tyrion leaves him, if I remember correctly.


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I had the same immediate thought, but it is a stretch.



I will say this though. If Illyrio and Varys are FM, it would explain much of Varys' success in being able to carry out such functions as being the underjailor in King's Landing's prisons. Furthermore, it also provides a further piece of plausibility to Syrio = Jaqen is Varys facillitated Syrio's escape as Jaqen.


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  • 2 months later...

Possible Motive.


The faceless men know about the shit thats about to go down north of the wall with the white walkers. The Faceless men hate whatever it is thats leading the white walkers because they use Zombie armies. Zombies are undead and they may view that as cheating the Death God out of what is owed him by taking someone already dead and bringing them back. As such they are trying to do whatever they can to stop that, part of which is fulfilling the prophecy of the prince that was promised. To this end Varys and Illyrio are tasked with making sure that westeros is ruled by the family with the best chance of defeating frost demons, and the Targs with thier giant fire breathing dragons are probably the safest bet for that. They could have even had dragon eggs to have Illyrio give to Dany because they are after all an ancient order, and IIRC they were founded by slaves in Old Valryia, they could have dragon eggs. They could also have sent thier agent to old town to try and get thier hands on some old tomes about dragon lore to improve thier odds of hatching more dragons should Dany die or fail in her attempt to take Westeros.


Varys and Illryio could be Faceless Men identities they have taken and developed over the years to allow the organization to have a few people constantly posted in places of power.


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Possible Motive.

The faceless men know about the shit thats about to go down north of the wall with the white walkers. The Faceless men hate whatever it is thats leading the white walkers because they use Zombie armies. Zombies are undead and they may view that as cheating the Death God out of what is owed him by taking someone already dead and bringing them back. As such they are trying to do whatever they can to stop that, part of which is fulfilling the prophecy of the prince that was promised. To this end Varys and Illyrio are tasked with making sure that westeros is ruled by the family with the best chance of defeating frost demons, and the Targs with thier giant fire breathing dragons are probably the safest bet for that. They could have even had dragon eggs to have Illyrio give to Dany because they are after all an ancient order, and IIRC they were founded by slaves in Old Valryia, they could have dragon eggs. They could also have sent thier agent to old town to try and get thier hands on some old tomes about dragon lore to improve thier odds of hatching more dragons should Dany die or fail in her attempt to take Westeros.

Varys and Illryio could be Faceless Men identities they have taken and developed over the years to allow the organization to have a few people constantly posted in places of power.

The problem with this is that the Faceless Men were said to have brought about the Doom of Valyria and have an intense hatred of dragons. But I suppose they could be using them as a means to an end against the white walkers, and plan to take them out after the coming war.

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We also dont know the full truth of the doom of Valyria, or any potential role the Faceless Men had in it. But since they are linked through that legend, it may not be that they caused the doom, but it does give some fuel to the idea that they had some relevance to dragons or at least the power dragons represent.



I give some credence to the idea of Varys and Illryio being tied into something way larger than just "for the realm" and "master of coin". Those are pretty flimsy excuses for two highly capable and highly skilled players like V&I. This could even dovetail with what I see as the only other potential (plausible) motivation the two of them could have, which some sort of Targ/blood revival because of their own personal background. Varys might be some kind of descendent, or Illyrio is, or Illyrio was married to one, Brightflame, Blackfyre, etc. Those are nicknames - not House names - all the Brightflames or Blackfyres were and are Targaryens.


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Varys Was in training to become a FM, He was working with a troop of Mummers when he was bought, just like Arya was working for Mummers in the 'Mercy' Chapter from TWoW...


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Varys Was in training to become a FM, He was working with a troop of Mummers when he was bought, just like Arya was working for Mummers in the 'Mercy' Chapter from TWoW...

Possible. His little birds are children and some of his tactics in having them as spies are remeniscint of blind Beth. But I don't think he's actually a FM. I used to consider that as an option, but I don't anymore.

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Fun little theory. Would Aegon then be something like a stalling tactic? Since Dany turned toward Meereen, they need someone to bring stability to the 7K to prepare for winter...enter Aegon. Then once Dany's turned west, maybe plot to have her hookup with Aegon?


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  • 4 weeks later...

Fun little theory. Would Aegon then be something like a stalling tactic? Since Dany turned toward Meereen, they need someone to bring stability to the 7K to prepare for winter...enter Aegon. Then once Dany's turned west, maybe plot to have her hookup with Aegon?

I think the tactic you are thinking of is "Lightning rod." Everybody knows Dany and Viserys is still alive and everybody believe Aegon to be dead. First they have to wait until they are grown b4 their plan can truly commences, but once plans starts rolling not everybody follow the untold plans to the letters so complication arise

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