The True Face of the Faceless Men

[exigez]

Interesting. But I have several reservations regarding the FM.

1. We don't really know how they choose their targets

2. We know that the price on a hit is extremely high, but are we certain this relates only to gold? Maybe its a more spiritual sacrifice and the secrecy and myth built around it crated a common belief that its just very expensive. And the common man is just too scared to go and actually find out...

3. I actually don't think that the FM are brainwashed. The KM keeps scolding Arya for not LYING well enough. He doesn't really expect her to change, only to hide herself better.

I think the FM are a lot more powerful than the IB. So powerful in fact that wealth means little to them.

[Blow My Horn]

I do wonder who actually profited off the sale of Brightroar. Obviously the Lannisters were gouged because "they can afford it" but there could also be a pride cost assessed by the Valyrians or even backroom deals to fund a coup with gold that's untraceable in the Freehold. From the above posts we can see the distrust of Casterly Rock so this sale is important IMO. Then Brightroar is lost? Hmm, curious-er and curious-er.

As far as LF goes, has he ever been connected to a certain set of keys? I can't recall any instances.

Hopefully someday we get a series on the Doom of Valyria. Maybe someone handpicked by GRRM to write expanded universe stories. No fanfic but also let George do whatever he wants after the opus is complete.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

Yes, they also take humans as payment as in the case of the waif. Can anybody explain how exactly is this different from slavery?

Because it is a voluntary stipulation as opposed to forcible.

That is the difference, making it more like indentured servitude... Not a huge difference. but different nonetheless.

[Dagon]

Aw yea, this is what I'm into. Posting to read in detail later.

[Mithras]

Because it is a voluntary stipulation as opposed to forcible.

That is the difference, making it more like indentured servitude... Not a huge difference. but different nonetheless.

But the waif was a child when her father sold her.

[Oafkeeper]

Trueface:

http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/914840-reaction-images

[The_Noctua]

Agreed! Excellent post OP!

[bemused]

I've always felt there must be a strong connecton between the IB and the FM. I do think that the wealth of the FM probably helped to found and establish the IB, and that this probably always outweighed the wealth and influence of the original individual keyholders. While the Sealord is the outward face of authority in Braavos, I get the feeling that in fact the office is only 1/3 of one of those Essosi triumverates and that if the Sealord's policies deviated from what was acceptible to the IB and FM, he wouldn't hold the office for long.

( E.G., I suspect that the ouster of Viserys and Dany from Braavos was the result of a change of Sealord, not just the death of Darry.)

I agree that with the hints in TWoIaF (via Septon Barth) - it seems that the Valyrians were hiring FM to knock off their rivals' sorcerers.

I disagree with equating the FM with slave holders, or equating their training with brainwashing, though. Up until her first assignment, Arya is offered the option of being established in some other life path, and we don't actually know when she will reach the point of no return. Even after her assignment, there's a lot she still doesn't know about the FM, and she has skills yet to learn. Having killed for them is not something a person would want to broadcast... Arya is exceptional. They have already made exceptions for her and more exceptions may be made in future. .. There are many variables that might come into play.

I don't think the waif's situation is comparable to being sold into slavery either.Sam's father sent him to the wall. Sam had no choice , but we don't call it slavery. Daughters have been given to the silent sisters. ...We can't be sure if the waif was a price the FM exacted , or if it she was offered by her father or if she requested it of her father. She was never going to have a normal life. I don't think we know what age she was when her father gave her to the HoB&W, only that he remarried when she was six ... (He may not have found out about the poison until it was clear she wasn't going to develop normally) .. and I don't see why she wouldn't have been offered other options as Arya was.

She tells Arya her story, ending with .. he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. .. The story includes (she says) one lie and one exaggeration. Arya's reaction is...

She had been watching the waif’s face the whole time she told her story, but the other girl had shown her no signs. “The Many-Faced God took two-thirds of your father’s wealth, not all.”

“Just so. That was my exaggeration.”

Arya grinned, realized she was grinning, and gave her cheek a pinch. Rule your face, she told herself. My smile is my servant, he should come at my command. “What part was the lie?”

“No part. I lied about the lie.”

“Did you? Or are you lying now?”

[Blue-eyed crow]

Yes, they also take humans as payment as in the case of the waif. Can anybody explain how exactly is this different from slavery?

I don't see that it's any different from slavery. In fact, viewing it that way speaks to my point. The value of a single child slave can't be very high, and I think it confirms that the FM don't really care (solely) about gold. Their fees seem to be more based on what is valued by the requestor - if you want to hire the FM to take someone out, you are going to pay whatever is most dear to you. For a lot of people, that's money. For some, that could be a child.

[bemused]

Does that mean you consider a medieval apprenticeship slavery ? It seems to me that this is a grey area, and I wouldn't be too quick to label the HoB&W based on the slim evidence we have.

[Durran Durrandon]

I actually buy into the religious sincerity of the Faceless Men, and that should worry people much more than the idea that they are just in it for the money. People who are in it for the money, will not want to the world to end in icy dark death. It is very difficult to spend ones money that way. A religious death cult on the other hand, well, valar morgullis.

Yes, they take money, this assures that the person who wants the other person dead really wants them dead, they charge based on the means of the buiyer and the importance of the target. This is sort of the Chris Rock school of bullet pricing. "I think every bullet should cost 5000 dollars. Because if a bullet cost five thousand dollar, we wouldn't have any innocent bystanders"

As for the OP, yes it was the Faceless Men who hired by the competing Valaryian houses, brought on the doom of Valaryia through assassination of the people who kept the spells in place. The beauty of it is that they didn't actively seek out revenge, they just helped the Valaryians to destroy themselves.

I go back and forth on the "brain washing" the elimination of ego is an element of the path of enlightenment in Buddhist and similar philosophical system. The Faceless Men regard this world as a realm of suffering. Elimination of the ego in these traditions is part of the elimination of suffering. However in the wrong hands, it is also a good way to brainwash people, so I get where the OP is coming from.

[Mithras]

Nothing suggests that the FM wants an icy dark end and so they are in league with the Others. In fact, they should consider necromancy highly irreligious because it is against the wishes of their god and the notion that death is a gift that should be embraced.

[Durran Durrandon]

Nothing suggests that the FM wants an icy dark end and so they are in league with the Others. In fact, they should consider necromancy highly irreligious because it is against the wishes of their god and the notion that death is a gift that should be embraced.

I didn't mean to suggest that they were in league with the Others, I was just using the active metaphor for death in the series.

[Mithras]

I didn't mean to suggest that they were in league with the Others, I was just using the active metaphor for death in the series.

There is this famous Grand FM conspiracy. I thought you were talking about it.

[Durran Durrandon]

There is this famous Grand FM conspiracy. I thought you were talking about it.

Yeah, I think I might have had that in the back of my head while writing, but I agree with you for the reasons you gave, that the Faceless Men cannot ally themselves ideologically with forces that reanimate the semi-aware armies of the dead. My point still remains that a sincere death cult may be more problematic than an insincere one. I think there is still a good chance that they have Euron's dragon egg, and we know one of them is at the Citadel, looking for books about dragons. They are a serious wild card.

[Durran Durrandon]

you missed something:

VAlyrians didn´t trade with Westerlands for fear. Yet gold from CR destroyed the Freehold sorcerers, and caused the Doom.

The gold that paid the FM came from CR.

There was one famous transaction between the Westerlands and Valyria:

Only dragonlords can make Valyrian steel right? to make VS you need both blood and fire. Qohor makes blood sacrifices, yet it lacks dragonfire to make VS.. they can only re forge, but not make new VS.

Some dragonlord selled Brightroar to House Lannister, and later with that gold he killed the sorcerers and caused the DOom

Were they suicidal? i mean by killing the sorcerers, they destroyed Valyria, killing every dragonlord around.

Except House Targaryen, who became the only dragonlords in the world...

This is very interesting, and I think you are onto something. The money for the sale of Brightroar may have paid for a string of assassinations or one really impportant one, setting up the Doom. But was it the Targaryen's?

The Valyrians came to Dragonstone (not Westeros proper) 200 years before the Doom - but the Targaryens only came 12 years before the Doom.

Just to clarify.

As for the dragon dreams: greenseers and glass candle wielders can put dreams in people’s heads. We always have to remember that any dream could reflect an agenda by one of those two actors. We saw it with Bran and BR, many times. Not saying Daenys the Dreamer's dream was planted, but it's totally possible. Dany’s dreams are very likely from Quaithe.

The story of the prophecy would make a great excuse for why they VERY VERY SUSPICIOUSLY moved all of their stuff away from the scene of the crime right before the crime went down. It’s a little fishy sounding.

It’s got to be one or the other: either she had a dream and they took it seriously, meaning they probably didn’t “do the doom”; or, the dream is a cover and they definitely did help blow that sh*t up.

I think it is worth noting that the chosen people leaving a civilization before its impeding doom due to divine guidance crops up a lot in mythology. In fact it kind of begins at the beginning of mythology with the Upnapishtim story in the tale of Gilgamesh, with El saving Upnapishtem fromt he flood. We then get the Greek and Jewish reboots of this myth. Then we have Venus warning Aenis' followers to flee Troy as it falls, leading to the founding of Rome. Add in Huitzilipochli warning the Mexica to flee Aztlan and guiding them to found Tenochtitlan. Granting that in some of these real world myths, these seem to be revisionist histories intended to justify their empire, they are not that within the context of the myth. I think Martin is giving us the real deal here. The doom was coming at the hands of others, the Targaryen's were warned via dream prophecy and fled, because they must ultimately give us the Prince(s) that was Promised.

[Nozlym]

i always thought that the FM destroyed Valyria as a showcase of what they are capable of.

Since this would prob have been one of their first jobs, i wouldnt think anyone would be

willing to throw away so much money to an unknown organization.

[exigez]

I don't see that it's any different from slavery. In fact, viewing it that way speaks to my point. The value of a single child slave can't be very high, and I think it confirms that the FM don't really care (solely) about gold. Their fees seem to be more based on what is valued by the requestor - if you want to hire the FM to take someone out, you are going to pay whatever is most dear to you. For a lot of people, that's money. For some, that could be a child.

exactly

[exigez]

This is very interesting, and I think you are onto something. The money for the sale of Brightroar may have paid for a string of assassinations or one really impportant one, setting up the Doom. But was it the Targaryen's?

I think it is worth noting that the chosen people leaving a civilization before its impeding doom due to divine guidance crops up a lot in mythology. In fact it kind of begins at the beginning of mythology with the Upnapishtim story in the tale of Gilgamesh, with El saving Upnapishtem fromt he flood. We then get the Greek and Jewish reboots of this myth. Then we have Venus warning Aenis' followers to flee Troy as it falls, leading to the founding of Rome. Add in Huitzilipochli warning the Mexica to flee Aztlan and guiding them to found Tenochtitlan. Granting that in some of these real world myths, these seem to be revisionist histories intended to justify their empire, they are not that within the context of the myth. I think Martin is giving us the real deal here. The doom was coming at the hands of others, the Targaryen's were warned via dream prophecy and fled, because they must ultimately give us the Prince(s) that was Promised.

amazing!

[Lady Flandrensis]

Thanks for a great post! I've always linked the FM & IB.