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Could George make Dany and Dorne enemies without Quentyn?


Mithras

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I mean the only purpose of Quentyn is to release the dragons and alienate Dorne and Dany.



Could George work that out without wasting pages for Quentyn?



Does Arianne not give enough clues that she will be a bitter enemy of Dany even without anything to do with Quentyn?


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Could Tyrion still have been sentenced to death without Oberyn dying? Could Dorne still want war against the Lannisters without Oberyn dying?



Quentyn's death is, whether you like it or not, part of the story. You may think it was a waste of time when looking at the bigger picture, but many of us would disagree with you. Personally I found his death poignant and hugely relevant to the themes of ADwD, as well as the themes of the overall series: themes of adventure (and its failure), family, heroism, violence, war, and the cost of vengeance (which appears to be the main theme of the Martell family). It also has the benefit of adding even more tragedy to the Martell family - tragedy that is only just beginning. Doran Martell waited for his vengeance, but that hasn't stopped his family dying.



You could take Quentyn out of the story, but I doubt TWoW would be much closer to completion. And, in my opinion at least, the story would lose some of its depth.


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Does Arianne not give enough clues that she will be a bitter enemy of Dany even without anything to do with Quentyn?

I think that Arianne is to be the anti-Daenerys, a beautiful charismatic woman who is her rival for power in Westeros.

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I agree that Quentyn is important to the story. He will turn Dorne against Dany, and he does personify one of the main themes of the Dornish arc (vengeance or peace)


If Quentyn survived and Jon Connington sent word to Doran that his nephew was alive then maybe Doran declares for (f)Aegon and Dany becomes their enemy.


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But there are two potential grounds for conflict between Daenerys and Arianne.

I think Arianne's high self-esteem, delusions of grandeur, ambitious nature and recklessness are more than enough to make her and Dany enemies, especially if she finds a chance to marry a Targ with a better claim and become the queen herself. There is no need to over-dramatize why Arianne will do what she will do.

It was as dumb as it could get for Argilac to cut off the hands of Aegon’s envoys but he did it nonetheless. People do foolish things all the time. Arianne already has many reasons to reject Dany and accept Aegon. Quentyn’s death is an unnecessary over-justification to antagonize Dany.

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I think there are a lot of options to make conflict between Dany and Dorne. For example she would arrive to Dorne from Essos and asks for support, but Dorne already supports Aegon. And/or Dany tries to ally with Aegon, but Arianne is seduced him and ask him to say no. Dany would marry Aegon to get the throne but he's already engaged with Arianne for Dorne's support and they don't give a shit about Dany. Etc.


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Quentyn's death wasn't necessary for the Dorne-Dany conflict. But he may create a Martell-Yronwood conflict. Nor was he a waste. He gave us a lot of insight into Essos and Meereen. Way more than Dany actually.




It was as dumb as it could get for Argilac to cut off the hands of Aegon’s envoys but he did it nonetheless. People do foolish things all the time. Arianne already has many reasons to reject Dany and accept Aegon. Quentyn’s death is an unnecessary over-justification to antagonize Dany.



Actually, it was political necessity for Argilac. He couldn't take that insult and retain control over the Stormlands. Aegon knew exactly what he had to do to provoke a war.


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Off course he could. It would just take a sentence or 2.

'Dany could never forgive her uncle for kneeling to the Usurpers. Somehow that betrayal cut deeper than the others.' as a very quick off the top of my head.

This could work or

Doran: I am the grass that...

Dany: Grass is what feed our horses in the Dothraki Sea. Dracarys!

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This could work or

Doran: I am the grass that...

Dany: Grass is what feed our horses in the Dothraki Sea. Dracarys!

Lol. But seriously, I also just added the 'Dornish spears were famously the first to break at the Trident, and men said they were never there by choice.' to my idea. Really, Dany makes a lot of decisions based on her emotions, and those are easily changed by an author.

I suppose it's a bit harder to get Doran to change, but that's because he moves with the electric speed of a decrepit glacier at the best of times.

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Lol. But seriously, I also just added the 'Dornish spears were famously the first to break at the Trident, and men said they were never there by choice.' to my idea. Really, Dany makes a lot of decisions based on her emotions, and those are easily changed by an author.

I suppose it's a bit harder to get Doran to change, but that's because he moves with the electric speed of a decrepit glacier at the best of times.

I agree. Given how much Dany glorifies Rhaegar and cannot stomach hearing the truth about her daddy; she is likely to dismiss the details and declare the Dornish as traitors at the Trident.

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I agree. Given how much Dany glorifies Rhaegar and cannot stomach hearing the truth about her daddy; she is likely to dismiss the details and declare the Dornish as traitors at the Trident.

This could certainly happen, we know Dany subscribes to the revisionist version of Westerosi history thanks to Viserys, where Targs are good and everyone who rebelled against them are evil, usurpers, dogs etc. Nobody has taught her any differently, and even if she is told the truth, will she accept it? This is easily enough for Dany to declare the Dornish as traitors, and with Doran likely to declare for (f)Aegon it adds enough motivation for Dany to unleash the dragons on Westeros.

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I think it's wrong to look at Quentyn's arc just as a cheap way to get Dany into conflict with Martells. I found it pretty well written and enjoyable, foor one.




Personally I found his death poignant and hugely relevant to the themes of ADwD, as well as the themes of the overall series: themes of adventure (and its failure), family, heroism, violence, war, and the cost of vengeance (which appears to be the main theme of the Martell family). It also has the benefit of adding even more tragedy to the Martell family - tragedy that is only just beginning. Doran Martell waited for his vengeance, but that hasn't stopped his family dying.



:agree:



As for original question - yes, of course he could.


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I think it's wrong to look at Quentyn's arc just as a cheap way to get Dany into conflict with Martells. I found it pretty well written and enjoyable, foor one.

:agree:

As for original question - yes, of course he could.

IMO, The Dragontamer is one of the best chapters in the series; gripping, blackly funny, and very sad.

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Cersei vs Margaery = Arianne vs Danaerys ?



The War Of The Four Queens? What if Margaery and Arianne form a pact, an alliance between Dorne and Highgarden?


Damn it! Let's have Cersei forming a pact with Aegon, because he's so like, handsome.... swoon.



Aegon won't be fake but the cause behind him will be. For all his life, this kid's been told he's Aegon...... Hmmm? Sounds slightly familiar? Danaerys has been told.... all her life.....? Those dreams....?



Lemon trees and meadows? Does anyone else see this as a memory of Dorne? I don't. It sounds more like.... over to the west. Starfall.... Highgarden.... Oldtown.....? Red door....? Red mountains.... via a pass.... would be door....from Starfall to Hghgarden?



Margaery persuades Arianne that Dany is cool, and as gorgeous as they are. Kill the evil Queen... Regent! Queen! Kill Cersei! Kill! Kill!



What's with the strange music? da-de-da-da, da-de-da-da.....


Drogon bursts into flames, and falls to the ground! Suddenly.... a figure emerges! Damn! It's Rhaegar! In his hand is.....Morning Star! It's scabbard is make of fur.... Lucy fur, maybe? Then, another figure emerges.....



"Trust you! This isn't where our boy-child is!"


"Women drivers. Blame her, little miss dragon-rider."


"Hi, Cersei! Bye, Cersei."


"What did you do that for?"


"Too ugly to join our gang? Her bloke killed your pal, Arturo."


"She killed Ned too."


"Alas, poor Cersei..... Your head will grace our piss-pot."


"Where's this party we've to get to?"


"North! Jon Snow's there!"


"Jon? Snow? I know nothing about Jon Snow."


"She means..... you know who."


"Tarquin?"


"You named the boy, if you remember."


"Let's not keep the lad waiting. I need to change his name and proclaim him....."


"Wait! Is he.... good-looking?"


"He's HOT!"


"Damn. You killed...."


"Blow this, Dany. Hard."


"Do you mind, Rhaegar? The other horn."


"Don't go all-wolf on me, Ly-Ly."


"Dire wolves?"


"Do you see any dragons parked round here?"


"Bran? Bran? It's your Auntie Lyanna! Do your thing, boy!!"


"Eagles? Giants?"


"Eagles vs Giants? Next Superbowl! Yee-haw!"


"George? Calm down. Calm down!"


"I believe I can fly! I believe I can touch the sky! I think about it every night and day! Spread my wings and fly away...... North it is then! Woo-hoo!"


"Good old Gandalf. He's the best. Sings that to Bran all the time. Oh, you didn't know? Bloodraven is secretly Gandalf."


"Grab a sword. We've got plenty and there's millions, and millions....." (Rock makes guest appearance.)


"I want Truth!"


"You can't handle Truth!" (Some unknown or faded movie star to guest - one line only)



They have to play games to while away the time. Wherever to The Wall - Flight time?


So, the question of the day is.... which comes first? Outrageous, improbable comic-book ending that's ultimately stupid. Or Giants have the perfect season and go to Superbowl? (George says they'll win! It's the ending he's aiming to write towards. The last line of the books is.... Giants Lift Superbowl Trophy.)



Oh! BTW - There's an alternative ending in paperback. Jets Lift Superbowl Trophy.


On-line version (e-book)? Hackers got in and it's London Monarchs Lift Superbowl Trophy for the 1st time in their franchise history, at the first attempt. Foreshadowed when they won World League - 1991! 9 wins - i loss. vs Barcelona..... Dragons! The Fridge was awesome!



American Football doesn't influence George at all? Seriously? How clever is George? All hidden because.....


Frankfurt = Galaxy (Foreshadows the stars of the show)


New York/New Jersey = Knights (Obvious)


Orlando = Thunder (Sound of battle? Storms.... Thunder to Lightning = Beric)


Birmingham = Fire (Clearly a team to interest most Targs.)


Montreal = Machine (The Mountain transformed into Ser Robert Strong)


Raleigh-Durham = Skyhawks (Any bird, or... hint at dragons?)


San Antonio = Riders (Cavalry or jousts)


Sacramento = Surge (Power, rising of Houses. Charge!)


Barcelona = Dragons (Obvious)


London = Monarchs (All the Kings and Queens, Princes and Princesses.....)



Monarchs shut out Dragons 21-zip in the World Bowl'91. (Foreshadow of downfall of dragons. Crown wins in the end)



Find a team without a mention in the books. If not by name, by imagery.


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This could certainly happen, we know Dany subscribes to the revisionist version of Westerosi history thanks to Viserys, where Targs are good and everyone who rebelled against them are evil, usurpers, dogs etc. Nobody has taught her any differently, and even if she is told the truth, will she accept it? This is easily enough for Dany to declare the Dornish as traitors, and with Doran likely to declare for (f)Aegon it adds enough motivation for Dany to unleash the dragons on Westeros.

Well except for the fact that she does the opposite in ADWD when Quentyn shows up in Meereen.

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Well except for the fact that she does the opposite in ADWD when Quentyn shows up in Meereen.

She does but that was before the arrival of (f)Aegon in the game, and also if she knew the Battle of the Trident, she could blame the Dornish for not sending enough men or whatever. Maybe she won't but its all possibilities, and Dany is irrational and makes decisions based on emotions, it could happen.

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