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Could George make Dany and Dorne enemies without Quentyn?


Mithras

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Could Tyrion still have been sentenced to death without Oberyn dying? Could Dorne still want war against the Lannisters without Oberyn dying?

Quentyn's death is, whether you like it or not, part of the story. You may think it was a waste of time when looking at the bigger picture, but many of us would disagree with you. Personally I found his death poignant and hugely relevant to the themes of ADwD, as well as the themes of the overall series: themes of adventure (and its failure), family, heroism, violence, war, and the cost of vengeance (which appears to be the main theme of the Martell family). It also has the benefit of adding even more tragedy to the Martell family - tragedy that is only just beginning. Doran Martell waited for his vengeance, but that hasn't stopped his family dying.

You could take Quentyn out of the story, but I doubt TWoW would be much closer to completion. And, in my opinion at least, the story would lose some of its depth.

I agree with this. Quentyn's one of my favourite characters, I don't know why so many people have such a problem with him. In terms of storyline, the Martells may very well be forced to support Aegon but that wouldn't mean they would have to be enemies of Dany, they could have tried to forge a peace between them. But Quentyn's death is going to make it very difficult for Dorne to support Dany.

Besides, we have many travelogues that aren't relevant to the plot - I know they're unpopular too but it all adds to the story and its wider themes. Brienne's travelogue through the riverlands shows the after-effects of the war. Quentyn's story shows the effects of war on a sweet young man who was only a baby when his auntie and cousins were murdered. It's a pointless end to a young life and further grief for the Martells. Plus, it shows that even Doran Martell's plans turn to ashes (all too literally in this case), despite the fact that he's been plotting for 16 years. It's all a pointless, viscious circle of destruction and no one wins.

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Of course. But GRRM didnt want to do it that way. He obviously wanted Quentyn in the story, whether all readers like him or not.

Besides which, he fleshes out the Martell family and gives them.an interesting dynamic (I would not be half as interested in Arriane without her resentment of Doran and Quentyn because of gender stuff etc.)

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I think that Arianne is to be the anti-Daenerys, a beautiful charismatic woman who is her rival for power in Westeros.

The difference is that Arianne has shown no skill in anything besides seducing one kingsguard. Her big plan went horribly wrong. Dany on the other hand is basically self-made, been very successful considering her circumstances, and has disrupted half of the world.

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The difference is that Arianne has shown no skill in anything besides seducing one kingsguard. Her big plan went horribly wrong. Dany on the other hand is basically Quaithe-made, been very successful considering her circumstances, and has disrupted half of the world.

There fixed it for you.

The story about a prince that tries to become a hero, faces a dragon and loses, a prince that looks like a frog, but doesn´t get any better if you kiss him.

Quentyn´s story is the quint-essential anti-adventure. His chapters are no more dull than any other travel chapters. (A lot of readers dislike them, but I find them interesting enough). I´m curious about Volantis and the rest of Essos and how their politics and societies are crumbling.

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The difference is that Arianne has shown no skill in anything besides seducing one kingsguard. Her big plan went horribly wrong. Dany on the other hand is basically self-made, been very successful considering her circumstances, and has disrupted half of the world.

We've only seen Arianne in three chapters, and her father has deliberately kept her out of the loop.

I think that her plan would have ended badly for Dorne (and her) had she succeeded in crowning Myrcella, Nonetheless she showed considerable cunning and courage in putting it into execution.

Really, she was backed into a corner. She thought she had been disinherited, and the evidence pointed strongly in that direction. Given that, what did she think the future held for her? Marriage to some minor lord, or exile to her mother in Norvos, at best. Meeting an "accident", or execution at worst, after her brother became Prince (no ruler wants someone hanging around who has a better claim to the Throne). She manipulated Ser Arys, undoubtedly, but her fears weren't groundless, in the light of the evidence she had.

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The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad.



Prince Quentyn answered him. “Dorne is fifty thousand spears and swords, pledged to our queen’s service.”



Someone has a deal to answer for.


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Also, no Quentyn means no Queenmaker plot. The family set-up of the Martells, with Quentyn's wardship, Arriane's resentment about her birthright, the Myrcella/Trystane match, would not really work without Quentyn

Wrong. Queenmaker plot belonged to Oberyn, who passed it to Tyene, who passed it to Arianne. It could have happened even without Quentyn.

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Wrong. Queenmaker plot belonged to Oberyn, who passed it to Tyene, who passed it to Arianne. It could have happened even without Quentyn.

Nope. Arriane doesn't go against her father unless she still resents him for wanting to put Quentyn as Prince of Dorne. Lifting Quentyn from the story ruins the Martell family dynamic and various plots involved in it, because the way Martin has written it involves them all deeply.

Doran needs two sons, one for the Myrcella betrothal to get her into Dorne, another to wed Dany after Viserys is killed off, so he can get his vengeance.on the Lannisters.

He needs a daughter for the.original marriage pact to Viserys. Its also important she is his eldest child, otherwise we get no inheritance angst.

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Nope. Arriane doesn't go against her father unless she still resents him for wanting to put Quentyn as Prince of Dorne. Lifting Quentyn from the story ruins the Martell family dynamic and various plots involved in it, because the way Martin has written it involves them all deeply.

Doran needs two sons, one for the Myrcella betrothal to get her into Dorne, another to wed Dany after Viserys is killed off, so he can get his vengeance.on the Lannisters.

He needs a daughter for the.original marriage pact to Viserys. Its also important she is his eldest child, otherwise we get no inheritance angst.

The Queenmaker plot was the Sand Snakes' idea, not Arianne's. They would have followed through with it without her. As for Quentyn, I never really liked his inclusion into the story and agree with some posters that Aegon's existence was all Martin needed to create conflict between Dorne and Dany.

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Nope. Arriane doesn't go against her father unless she still resents him for wanting to put Quentyn as Prince of Dorne. Lifting Quentyn from the story ruins the Martell family dynamic and various plots involved in it, because the way Martin has written it involves them all deeply.

Doran needs two sons, one for the Myrcella betrothal to get her into Dorne, another to wed Dany after Viserys is killed off, so he can get his vengeance.on the Lannisters.

He needs a daughter for the.original marriage pact to Viserys. Its also important she is his eldest child, otherwise we get no inheritance angst.

Arianne always considered Doran as a weak man and in return called herself made from weak seed while she is appreaciating Oberyn and Sandsnakes. Even if we remove Quentyn, Arianne would still resent Doran's passiveness like every other Sandsnake.

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I agree with this. Quentyn's one of my favourite characters, I don't know why so many people have such a problem with him.

He's the plain-looking uncharismatic hard-working underappreciated dutiful dork.

Who loses.

This forum wants to see plain-looking uncharismatic hard-working underappreciated dutiful dorks who win, balancing some kinda cosmic angst-scale. Just imo.

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He's the plain-looking uncharismatic hard-working underappreciated dutiful dork.

Who loses.

This forum wants to see plain-looking uncharismatic hard-working underappreciated dutiful dorks who win, balancing some kinda cosmic angst-scale. Just imo.

Haha, possibly. I think a lot of people see themselves in Quentyn and don't like that because they think fantasy characters should all be really outstanding, exceptional heroes who do amazing things and can ride dragons. Similar to how some people don't like Sansa because they see too much of themselves in her. Oh well, their loss. I think Quentyn's a great addition to the story.

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Quentyn's death wasn't necessary for the Dorne-Dany conflict. But he may create a Martell-Yronwood conflict. Nor was he a waste. He gave us a lot of insight into Essos and Meereen. Way more than Dany actually.

Actually, it was political necessity for Argilac. He couldn't take that insult and retain control over the Stormlands. Aegon knew exactly what he had to do to provoke a war.

Yeah I think people overlook the fact that Cletus dying isn't going to sit well with Yronwood, and having the boy he raised roasted by dragons after being rejected will seriously make him question Doran's leadership. They should have sent a stately envoy, everyone in westeros is faaaaar to busy to give a flying Fuck what Dorne is doing, I honestly can't believe Doran was worried about people finding out after Tywin died.

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Dany: Would you care to join me and my Hand, a Lannister, in the war to reclaim the IT for a dynasty that lost it in the first place because my brother cheated on his wife, a Dornish princess?

Dorne: We'll pass.

We already know Tyrion doesn't accompany Dany, at least not the whole way, and though they will intersecthe doesn't look to be joining her as such

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Not needed, really.

Reading about the Martells is like watching an angry turtle that's been flipped over on its shell.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :bowdown:

We already know Tyrion doesn't accompany Dany, at least not the whole way, and though they will intersecthe doesn't look to be joining her as such

How do we know that? It hasn't happened yet and all GRRM has said is that they won't join forces until later on in AWOW. But if he doesn't end up on Dany's side (in a major way), what would be the point of his entire ADWD arc?

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Off course he could. It would just take a sentence or 2.

'Dany could never forgive her uncle for kneeling to the Usurpers. Somehow that betrayal cut deeper than the others.' as a very quick off the top of my head.

Or maybe a dragon killing Trystane, or Arianne, or accidentally destroying the Water Gardens with an ill-timed episode of flatulence just as the other dragon lets out a fiery burp.

There are a ton of ways to turn distantly related family members against each other. And add to that the fantasy elements. Tons of options. Quentyn's death is not an automatic side-against-Dany thing. Quentyn's death was caused by two people: 1) Quentyn, the idiot who tried to steal a dragon; 2) the idiot who fired the crossbow bolt that angered the dragons. Honestly if not for the crossbow bolt it could have gone much better. Dany wasn't even in Meereen when it happened, and Doran is an intelligent man. He may well understand that Dany had nothing to do with Quent's death.

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:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :bowdown:

How do we know that? It hasn't happened yet and all GRRM has said is that they won't join forces until later on in AWOW. But if he doesn't end up on Dany's side (in a major way), what would be the point of his entire ADWD arc?

Re read the article, it never says they join forces and implies they are on different but intersecting paths, which itself implies they will probably not be working side by side. I imagine Tyrion leaves for Westeros first, Dany has a few things left to do and a bunch of people to prepare for transport. I do think his allegiance will formally be to her though. Hell she may even send her army ahead of her.

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