Could George make Dany and Dorne enemies without Quentyn?

[Petyr's Little Finger]

It all depends on whether Doran is committed to the targaryen succession/restoration per se, the ruin of Lannister power, or advancing his own power and that of his family line. These are three different priorities, though not always uncomplimentary to each other, and Quentyn's death affects the three of them differently.

What I still don't get from Daenerys's point of view is why she did not take Quentyn more seriously--not as a sexual partner, but as a very prestigious lay from one of the most important regions of Westeros--by far the oat important Westerosi, in dynastic terms, she has ever met.

I don't think Doran's aim is to advance Martell power, his main aim IMO is to get revenge for Elia and her children. Of course since Elia was married to Rhaegar there is some loyalty from Doran towards the Targs, still he just wants revenge and he sees and Dany and her dragons as the best way to get it.

I agree, even if she doesn't marry Quentyn she really shouldn't have dismissed him like she did in Meereen. She did want to go to Westeros eventually, so she really made a counterproductive move there.

[Minsc]

What I still don't get from Daenerys's point of view is why she did not take Quentyn more seriously--not as a sexual partner, but as a very prestigious lay from one of the most important regions of Westeros--by far the oat important Westerosi, in dynastic terms, she has ever met.

She was willing to make an alliance with him. In regards to a marriage option, she declined as she had already agreed to marry someone else that served an immediate need while Quentyn didn't bring any actual assets with him.

[HosteenOsteen]

@minsc, I agree with you, but I just don't get the sense that she is as thrilled, in strictly strategic terms, by the idea of a Dornish alliance as she should be. It could presumably be (to use an admittedly inexact example) like the US alliance with France in the Revolutionary War, something that gives her credibility and support at the highest levels.

[LordStoneheart]

The simple answer is yes, but the more complicated answer deals with GRRM's own motivation for creating the characters he does. I'm going to take a big guess and assume Arys Oakheart, Jon Connington, Victarion, and many other secondary characters were not in his original plan but they made it in. Maybe he dreamed them up and needed to write them. Maybe he just needed a camera (which is why I understand the criticism of Areo Hotah's chapters.) But Quentyn's chapters certainly feel more emotionally attached than Hotah's, so maybe GRRM just had a desire to write a mini knight's tale in the series that just so happened to end with both a subversion of the usual glory, and a reason for Dorne to be against her.

[Minsc]

@minsc, I agree with you, but I just don't get the sense that she is as thrilled, in strictly strategic terms, by the idea of a Dornish alliance as she should be. It could presumably be (to use an admittedly inexact example) like the US alliance with France in the Revolutionary War, something that gives her credibility and support at the highest levels.

It doesn't help that the only thing Doran has to present in favor of the alliance is a no longer relevant piece of paper and three teenagers.

[Lord Lannister]

Eh, the whole Quentyn story arc seems like it could've been handled with Dany and Barristan's POVs without bogging down the story even more with his chapters dedicated to traveling, being there, trying, failing, trying again and so on.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Eh, the whole Quentyn story arc seems like it could've been handled with Dany and Barristan's POVs without bogging down the story even more with his chapters dedicated to traveling, being there, trying, failing, trying again and so on.

Unless he's alive. I personally think he's dead, but there's still a half a percent chance that he's alive and in seriously bad shape.

[Lord Lannister]

Unless he's alive. I personally think he's dead, but there's still a half a percent chance that he's alive and in seriously bad shape.

If he's alive, I think he'll have ended up beating Theon on the suffering scale.

[PatrickStormborn]

Arianne always considered Doran as a weak man and in return called herself made from weak seed while she is appreaciating Oberyn and Sandsnakes. Even if we remove Quentyn, Arianne would still resent Doran's passiveness like every other Sandsnake.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Dornish storyline and Arianne's narrative. She only resents her father because she believes he is trying to help Quentyn usurp her position as heir to Dorne. She then attempts to crown Myrcella so that she can mobilise Dorne in preparation for Quentyn's invasion.

Her resentment for Doran and appreciation for Oberyn are intrinsically linked to her fear that her father does not love her. If you remove that, you lose the soul of the Dornish narrative... which is why I'm so disappointed that the HBO show will not feature Arianne or Quentyn. The Sandsnakes and the Martell story of vengeance are dynamic, but Arianne's story was far more compelling.

It's weird he says that given there is a scene where Dany is recalling the stories she read in the books Jorah gave her. Not quite sure what he's talking about.

I'm hoping he just means that Dany knows little about Westerosi history whilst Tyrion knows a lot. If he writes that Dany didn't read Jorah's books it would be a significant inconsistency.

It all depends on whether Doran is committed to the targaryen succession/restoration per se, the ruin of Lannister power, or advancing his own power and that of his family line. These are three different priorities, though not always uncomplimentary to each other, and Quentyn's death affects the three of them differently.

What I still don't get from Daenerys's point of view is why she did not take Quentyn more seriously--not as a sexual partner, but as a very prestigious lay from one of the most important regions of Westeros--by far the oat important Westerosi, in dynastic terms, she has ever met.

It's all there in the text:

• Dany is in Meereen, besieged by enemies. Westeros is thousands of miles away.

Dany is betrothed to Hizdahr, and they are set to be married within days.

Quentyn brought only two companions, and so he cannot help her get out of Meereen.

His reaction to the dragons demonstrates that he is not a "dragon", and thus not one of the heads of the dragon she is searching for.

But Dany still continues to foster good relations with Quentyn, promising him an alliance to fight their mutual enemies when she finally sails for Westeros.

The tragedy is that Quentyn and Dany were very courteous and had positive feelings to one another. Quentyn would be the first person to tell the Martells not to fight Daenerys.

[SeanF]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Dornish storyline and Arianne's narrative. She only resents her father because she believes he is trying to help Quentyn usurp her position as heir to Dorne. She then attempts to crown Myrcella so that she can mobilise Dorne in preparation for Quentyn's invasion.

Her resentment for Doran and appreciation for Oberyn are intrinsically linked to her fear that her father does not love her. If you remove that, you lose the soul of the Dornish narrative... which is why I'm so disappointed that the HBO show will not feature Arianne or Quentyn. The Sandsnakes and the Martell story of vengeance are dynamic, but Arianne's story was far more compelling.

.

I'm sure that Arianne wants vengeance for Elia, the children, and Oberyn, but it's not something that features very prominently in her mind. Despite her closeness to Tyene, she's not really one of the hardline party in Dorne. Her priorities are different, even though she's adopted their plan to provoke war. Contrary to what her father believes, she doesn't seem to have confided at al, in the Sand Snakes.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

He goes through an over-drawn-out and pointless ordeal. We see his inner struggles but he dies at the end so there is no point to all of that. The information we get from his chapters is obtained in a much more convenient way through other PoV's, and he really is a rather dull character.

I am of course speaking about Eddard Stark.

I know it's a shaky comparison, but the fact remains that both die at the end of their respective storylines, and both of their chapters' could be given to other characters. Yet no one says Ned's chapters are pointless because they are entertaining, and we get important information about King's Landing from them. Quentyn's chapters aren't necessarily boring, I found the Battle of Astapor chapter to be very entertaining, like most I don't enjoy Slaver's Bay as much, but I still recognise it is an important part of the story, and Quentyn does have an important part in that story.

Overall I think Quentyn is the most unjustly disliked PoV in the books, compared to AGOT Sansa, ACOK Dany and AFFC and ASOS Sam they're basically brilliant.

[Northbound3.0]

Could Tyrion still have been sentenced to death without Oberyn dying? Could Dorne still want war against the Lannisters without Oberyn dying?

Quentyn's death is, whether you like it or not, part of the story. You may think it was a waste of time when looking at the bigger picture, but many of us would disagree with you. Personally I found his death poignant and hugely relevant to the themes of ADwD, as well as the themes of the overall series: themes of adventure (and its failure), family, heroism, violence, war, and the cost of vengeance (which appears to be the main theme of the Martell family). It also has the benefit of adding even more tragedy to the Martell family - tragedy that is only just beginning. Doran Martell waited for his vengeance, but that hasn't stopped his family dying.

You could take Quentyn out of the story, but I doubt TWoW would be much closer to completion. And, in my opinion at least, the story would lose some of its depth.

/thread. Well stated.

I'd also add, that his story arc serves roughly the same as Arya, Brienne, Jaime and any other character; who spent time in the Riverlands. Through their eyes, we saw the horrors that occurred, because of the war. Through Quentyn's eyes, we got see a deeper look at the chaos happening in Essos; the same can be said with Tyrion's arc there too.

With these POVs, either in Westeros or Essos; these characters gave us; more than a plot line but also the terrors of war/destabilization and they are extremely crucial to how the current and remaining story plays out.

(Dont know if anyone mentioned this. I posted right after I read Pat's post.)

[Good Guy Garlan]

He goes through an over-drawn-out and pointless ordeal. We see his inner struggles but he dies at the end so there is no point to all of that. The information we get from his chapters is obtained in a much more convenient way through other PoV's, and he really is a rather dull character.

I am of course speaking about Eddard Stark.

I know it's a shaky comparison, but the fact remains that both die at the end of their respective storylines, and both of their chapters' could be given to other characters. Yet no one says Ned's chapters are pointless because they are entertaining, and we get important information about King's Landing from them. Quentyn's chapters aren't necessarily boring, I found the Battle of Astapor chapter to be very entertaining, like most I don't enjoy Slaver's Bay as much, but I still recognise it is an important part of the story, and Quentyn does have an important part in that story.

Overall I think Quentyn is the most unjustly disliked PoV in the books, compared to AGOT Sansa, ACOK Dany and AFFC and ASOS Sam they're basically brilliant.

The difference (or one of the differences) is that Ned does things. He's thrown into the middle of the action from the get go, interacts with a whole array of significant characters, and most if not all of his actions have huge repercussions for the rest of the story. Quentyn doesn't, for the most part.

Take Ned out and you have an entirely different story. Take Quentyn out and it doesn't change things that much.

Even if we avoid the trap of judging elements in a story based solely on how they affect the plot, Quentyn still falls short, in my opinion. He's really not that deep or layered character (shy and insecure kid in over his head trying to prove his worth to daddy and his hometown), his chapters don't really tell us anything we didn't know before (war sucks), and even the oft-lauded deconstruction of the hero's journey in his chapters feels like something GRRM has done before (Dunk and Egg, Brienne, even Ned, fall into this category)

[Sword of the Morgan]

I still think there is a small chance that Quentyn is alive. The circumstances of his death are curious, especially with Gerris pointing his sword at Quentyn's body when Barristan's men find them.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

He goes through an over-drawn-out and pointless ordeal. We see his inner struggles but he dies at the end so there is no point to all of that. The information we get from his chapters is obtained in a much more convenient way through other PoV's, and he really is a rather dull character.

I am of course speaking about Eddard Stark.

I know it's a shaky comparison, but the fact remains that both die at the end of their respective storylines, and both of their chapters' could be given to other characters. Yet no one says Ned's chapters are pointless because they are entertaining, and we get important information about King's Landing from them. Quentyn's chapters aren't necessarily boring, I found the Battle of Astapor chapter to be very entertaining, like most I don't enjoy Slaver's Bay as much, but I still recognise it is an important part of the story, and Quentyn does have an important part in that story.

Overall I think Quentyn is the most unjustly disliked PoV in the books, compared to AGOT Sansa, ACOK Dany and AFFC and ASOS Sam they're basically brilliant.

Spot on.

The difference (or one of the differences) is that Ned does things. He's thrown into the middle of the action from the get go, interacts with a whole array of significant characters, and most if not all of his actions have huge repercussions for the rest of the story. Quentyn doesn't, for the most part.

Take Ned out and you have an entirely different story. Take Quentyn out and it doesn't change things that much.

Even if we avoid the trap of judging elements in a story based solely on how they affect the plot, Quentyn still falls short, in my opinion. He's really not that deep or layered character (shy and insecure kid in over his head trying to prove his worth to daddy and his hometown), his chapters don't really tell us anything we didn't know before (war sucks), and even the oft-lauded deconstruction of the hero's journey in his chapters feels like something GRRM has done before (Dunk and Egg, Brienne, even Ned, fall into this category)

Do you know how GRRM will proceed?

Quentyn gave us an insight into Volantis, into the Yunkish mindset, into the mercenary affairs, into the seedy underbelly of Meereen and per his backstory into the problems between Martell and Yronwood. Basically he has given us more information on the Essosi plotline than Dany and Barristan combined.

Furthermore, he is the first (and for a long while the only) PoV witnessing Dany (and her plotline) from the ooutside, creating a much-needed second perspective.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Spot on.

Do you know how GRRM will proceed?

Quentyn gave us an insight into Volantis,

Tyrion did that too, with even more details

into the Yunkish mindset,

Tyrion again

into the mercenary affairs,

Tyrion and Dany. Quentyn only introduced us to the Windblown. Big whoop

into the seedy underbelly of Meereen

The seedy underbelly being one random club/warehouse. Again, big whoop

and per his backstory into the problems between Martell and Yronwood.

We've known the relationship is shaky since aSoS, and Arianne hammered the point

Basically he has given us more information on the Essosi plotline than Dany and Barristan combined.

Again, you forgot Tyrion

Furthermore, he is the first (and for a long while the only) PoV witnessing Dany (and her plotline) from the ooutside, creating a much-needed second perspective.

Ok, I'll give you this, but I feel TWoW is going to deliver big time in that front

[The Reckoner]

Brienne deconstructs the hero's journey? I saw hers as more a tour of what the war did to the common folk. Also showed us a different side to the sparrows.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Brienne deconstructs the hero's journey? I saw hers as more a tour of what the war did to the common folk. Also showed us a different side to the sparrows.

It's the classical knight's quest, down to the clumsy sidekick and a monster at the end. Only here, the knight is a girl, the clumsy sidekick is kind of a badass during actual battles, and the monster is the girl's undead friend who's now accusing her of betrayal.

But yeah, it's also a look at the post-war landscape of the Riverlands

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Could you please differentiate between what I wrote and what you added. This way it's way to confusing. Thank you.

As to Tyrion, yes, he saw the second half, but not the first. Couldn't see the first.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

He could by having Doran killed and Arianne becoming ruler of Dorne.She dislikes Daenerys for grabbing her chance to be queen and is jealous of her kind of beauty(the first Daenerys was pretty much the same).And Daenerys is has officially disappeared/died in DWD so allying with Aegon is their last chance.