What will be Dany’s justification for invading Westeros?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

The Mad King ordered Robert to be killed, without a trial and the heir kidnapped/ran off with Robert's betrothed, so Robert did have a reason to go against the Targaryens.

Obviously, I know that. But Robert clearly doesn't think about the war that way.

Its quite clear from what we see of Robert that the only justification he needed for war was that he wanted to smash Rhaegar with his hammer for taking Lyanna. He never once thinks about what Aerys did to Ned's family.

This is all to say that I am disagreeing with OldGimletEye's idea that the Baratheons would be more likely to accept reforms about remvoigin dynasties.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Obviously, I know that. But Robert clearly doesn't think about the war that way.

Its quite clear from what we see of Robert that the only justification he needed for war was that he wanted to smash Rhaegar with his hammer for taking Lyanna. He never once thinks about what Aerys did to Ned's family.

This is all to say that I am disagreeing with OldGimletEye's idea that the Baratheons would be more likely to accept reforms about remvoigin dynasties.

Robert's primary justification is that he wanted his head attached to his neck. That's a very reasonable cause for someone to go to war, I would think.

[Mithras]

Let us also not forget that before asking the heads of Ned and Robert, Aerys executed Elbert Arryn too, who was Jon Arryn's heir to the Vale.

[El Guapo]

I couldn't see Dany ever accepting the legitimacy of Jon Arryn's actions.

The best one can hope for is that Dany would pardon the surviving rebels for their treason (in her eyes) in order to bind up the wounds of Westeros. But, if she wins, Viserys was King from 283-297, and she was queen from 297.

Yep pretty much. The usurper and his merry little band of dogs would be a footnote in history as just a mere interruption in the Tragrayen dynasty.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

And how many lives will it cost if she doesn't turn up. Last I checked Tyrion Lannister gave a great little talk about situation Westeros and it is a nightmare and only getting worse.

You have already attempted to claim she has invaded and you know why she will invade, yet she has not invaded. Who spied on her? Who attempted to murder her, who usurped her families throne? Did she ask for Tyrion to come to her? How about Quin? Did she ask for Quin to marry her or have any arrangment with him? Did she ask him to steal her dragons? Did she ask for Varys to manipulate her life from the shadows? Did she ask for a fake family relative to invade Westeros? Has she asked for Marwyn to come to her? Which he will Martin already confirmed this on SSM. Did she ask for Euron and Vic to come after her and her dragons? Who asked Selmy to come to her? What has Selmy told her? Though she is not so foolish as to believe him and Jorah gave her better information of the small folk.

She in no way involved herself in Westeros, Westeros involved themselves with her.

How will she learn of the Others? Marwyn who spoke with Sam who was there to get help in fighting the Others. Marwyn was also using a glass candle and may have more information.

Who has been in a constant state of War in Westeros. The Lannisters, the Baratheons, the Watch, the Starks, Iron Born, Tyrell, riverlands. Is the faith about to have another uprising? Is Euron about to invade Oldtown and the Reach? The north is at war with the North and Stannis, the Watch just stabbed Jon Snow, The reach and the Iron Born, Dorne is preparing and Little Finger is planning. LF voted to have her murdered and last I checked one of her Queensguard is a wittness.

Westeros has fucked Westeros. She has not come to them they have come to her and are still coming. Didn't Dorne ask her to join forces and attack? They spied on her, they attempted to murder her, they tried to steal from her. They are still trying to steal from her. Who hunted her, who tried to steal from her, who is trying to steal from her, wh tried to get her involved in their wars, who spied on her, who manipulated her life?

She did not ask to be involved with them, they involved her all on there own and somehow it is her fault because she was born. Sorry that BS doesn't slide. You know as long as you cherry pick small quotes and take them out of context and apply false attributes to her story you can get whatever answer you want. But to act like Westeros did not involve her, that Westeros and all it's problems are her fault, that KL is not her birthright that was built by her family along with Dragonstone, that she somehow asked for Varys, LF, Robert, Doran, Oberyn (Pact in Braavos), Quin, Selmy, Jorah, Victarion, Euron, and now Tyrion and Marwyn to involve her is nonsense. That is all on them. Stealing, attempted murder, spying, plotting and manipulating. When a country tries to murder someone who happens to be a ruler, that is generally taken a decleration of war by said ruler. Did they appologize for trying to kill her and her child? The ruler of Westeros did this with the authority of the small council. His family still hold the throne.

Yet not in Westeros and not marching. The crown is suppose to be responsible for it's lords, and they are doing all kinds of crazy shit. Wait till the Iron bank finds out she has a lot of gold, they will probably show up asking her to pay off the damn debt. They don't care who wins, they just want the debt paid off, and unlike Stannis she does not need a loan. Martin also mentioned on SSM after he listed the knot and all the people that will show up that someone else would be showing up and he did not name them just that they would have their own story.

What about Volantis? Who has been ploting against her and planning war against her. She has no plans reguarding Volantis. Yet they want to attack her for slaves and gold and gems. They have spread liess and tried to gain support to go to war with her and they don't like the fact that they are now affraid of the slaves.

How about the Red Priests they are the ones talking her up, that's on them she has not spoken to them she did not ask them to send Moqorro or make contact with them.

How about Qarth? She was invited into Qarth, she asked them for help and they said no. Then multiple members of the ruling class attempted to hae her killed. Then after the fact, they came to her again, and tried to get her to let slavery continue, and she said no. So they decleared war on her.

So if little princess hot pants decides to march her sweet tootsies over to any of those places and lay the sack down on some these candy assed morons you actually know where it began because it is in the books and it did not begin with her. They got involved with her, they declared war, they attacked her, they did all that other shit, and many people have a lot to answer for. Who had Dany taken into Illyrio's home? Who had her sold as a slave to the Dothraki? Who voted to haver her and her child murdered? People point the finger at Dany a lot but Varys has a lot to answer for. Did LF a man she had never met or crossed in anyway vote to have her and her child murdered? Did the Crown try to kill her? Did they spy on her did they manipulate her, did they kill her family? Aerys was fucked up but that is not on her? Who murdered her niece and nephew? She didn't know they but it tells her what she is dealing with and they are still her family. Who abused her as a child? Who threw her in the streets, who pointed a sword at her and her baby and threatened to murder both?

You know Dany has created her own problems, but so has everyone else. Robb created a problem with the Freys, Jon created a problem with the watch, Rhaegar did not address the problem that was his father creating an even bigger problem. Dany has things to answer for but her father and many things I have listed are not among them.

She may come because of the Others, or because of all the shit Westeros has done, she may come with fire and blood, she may come because of Aegon, or Varys, ora dozen other things. But does she have cause? She has more cause than most. She has the same argument that Stannis making except her family actually built KL and Dragonstone. For what ever reason she comes the author has given more than enough information and justification for her to do it and he did not put in the books for no reason. Doesn't the author himself referr to Westeros as her home? Didn't he say Dany and Tyrion were coming home in winds? There is another answer to the question, maybe she just wants to come home and the uthor says it's her home.

Moral high ground? What do the lords of Westeros know about the moral high ground? It's a steaming pile of self destructive bullshit, and they have made there own problems. The last lord with Moral high ground got his damn head cut off, and that was also not Dany's fault. She got a 1000 problems but justification for kicking there asses ain't one of them.

I just want to say thank you for being on this forum, for talking sense when it is lacking, and for being able to articulate exactly what I am thinking so well.

Cheers mate!

:cheers:

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Robert's primary justification is that he wanted his head attached to his neck. That's a very reasonable cause for someone to go to war, I would think.

Robert could certainly have used that justification. Jon and Ned ceryainly did and rightly so. My point is that robert never did. He only cared about killing Rhaegar from what we are shown.

I'm not trying to argue that Robert wasnt justified in removing Aerys or anything along those lines. I'm arguing against the idea that Robert will be obliged to be a great reformer because he rebelled to remove a tyrant. In fact, robert - in contrast to Jon A - never made any such justification - his justification was his war hammer and his purpose was Rhaegars complete destruction.

[James Arryn]

Robert could certainly have used that justification. Jon and Ned ceryainly did and rightly so. My point is that robert never did. He only cared about killing Rhaegar from what we are shown.

I'm not trying to argue that Robert wasnt justified in removing Aerys or anything along those lines. I'm arguing against the idea that Robert will be obliged to be a great reformer because he rebelled to remove a tyrant. In fact, robert - in contrast to Jon A - never made any such justification - his justification was his war hammer and his purpose was Rhaegars complete destruction.

Not sure we get too far into Robert's head, though. When it was just Lyanna he wasn't in revolt, though arguably he needed Arryn to lead the way.

[OldGimletEye]

I like and agree with your post in general but I'm not sure about this part. There's no suggestion that Robert (or any Baratheon) had any intentions of reforming the monarchy in such a way. I agree some would perhaps make that argument, but I don't see removal being any easier than with Aerys.

I think this is because while you are right that Jon Arryn had a legitimate reason to rebel - to protect his wards. But Robert wasn't rebelling for the same reason, not really. Robert was fighting because he wanted Rhaegar and all his possible heirs wiped from the earth. Because he personally hated him. And in the end, it was Robert who was king, and not Jon Arryn.

I do not know why so many people get so fixated on Robert's subjective thought processes. As far as I can tell, nobody has claimed that Robert was some kind of serious political thinker or legal scholar. I'm quite certain that Robert, being the dummy that he is, would have never figured out the broader legal and political implications of Robert's Rebellion. But, not everyone in Westeros is as stupid as Robert, fortunately. Certainly, there are people in Westeros that could have deduced that if Robert's Monarchy was legitimate, then that must mean that the removal of royal houses from the throne is a legitimate act, under certain conditions.

[Ser Triston Stark]

Aegon is false. He isn't a Targareyan, he's a Blackfyre.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Robert didnt' start the rebellion. Arryn did. Arryn wanted Robert's head in his place. Robert only wanted to put his penis in Lyanna. And, even when Lyanna's business was already busy with Rhaegar('s), Robert was just sulking somewhere (probably with wine and whores and Arryn had to unplug him from one of them to tell him he was in danger) and did what Robert always does: nothing.

So...

When Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away, Robert did nothing.

When Aerys captured Brandon, Robert did nothing (and the whole Kingdom, tbh)

When Aerys killed B and Rickard, Robert did nothing.

When Aerys asked for Robert's head, Robert did nothing once more.

Now they won they can go and say "oh, yeah! we defeated that one evil regime!", but that was never the intention. If it had been the intention, all of them could have acted years ago. The only time I'm sure Robert could have wanted to do something was when they heard Lyanna was gone, but at least, he was smarter than Brandon and knew he couldn't go and tell the Prince to not take the woman he wanted.

[OldGimletEye]

Robert didnt' start the rebellion. Arryn did. Arryn wanted Robert's head in his place. Robert only wanted to put his penis in Lyanna. And, even when Lyanna's business was already busy with Rhaegar('s), Robert was just sulking somewhere (probably with wine and whores and Arryn had to unplug him from one of them to tell him he was in danger) and did what Robert always does: nothing.

So...

When Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away, Robert did nothing.

When Aerys captured Brandon, Robert did nothing (and the whole Kingdom, tbh)

When Aerys killed B and Rickard, Robert did nothing.

When Aerys asked for Robert's head, Robert did nothing once more.

Now they won they can go and say "oh, yeah! we defeated that one evil regime!", but that was never the intention. If it had been the intention, all of them could have acted years ago. The only time I'm sure Robert could have wanted to do something was when they heard Lyanna was gone, but at least, he was smarter than Brandon and knew he couldn't go and tell the Prince to not take the woman he wanted.

And again, why does the whole legitimacy of RR turn upon Robert's subjective thought processes.

[OldGimletEye]

I couldn't see Dany ever accepting the legitimacy of Jon Arryn's actions.

The best one can hope for is that Dany would pardon the surviving rebels for their treason (in her eyes) in order to bind up the wounds of Westeros. But, if she wins, Viserys was King from 283-297, and she was queen from 297.

Well, that's very unfortunate. It would have been nice if the issues around Jon Arryn's could have been resolved peacefully. But, evidently, the question of whether absolutism becomes the dominant mode of political thought in Westeros will have to be decided by force of arms. If so, then it's hard for me to be anything but cool to the idea of Dany being queen. There are bigger issues here in play than whether one happens to like a character personally.

In my view, a "pardon" by Dany isn't good enough. It's would be insulting actually. Maybe Dany will have to invade the North where these issues can be settled.

Yep pretty much. The usurper and his merry little band of dogs would be a footnote in history as just a mere interruption in the Tragrayen dynasty.

Yes, let's give a big ol cheer for Targaryen Absolutism. Or maybe it ought to be called Targaryen Totalitarianism.

Ist this land ruled by the Targs so good! Would you leave if you could?

Ja this land is ruled so good. We wouldn't leave it, even if we could!

[James Arryn]

Let's all agree that it really ought to be called Jon Arryn's Rebellion.

[OldGimletEye]

Let's all agree that it really ought to be called Jon Arryn's Rebellion.

Absolutely. It's unfortunate that the rebellion got misnamed.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

In my view, a "pardon" by Dany isn't good enough. It's would be insulting actually. Maybe Dany will have to invade the North where these issues can be settled.

Exactly my feelings on the matter. And, one sure reason why Daenerys must acknowledge the facts of RR if she wants not to fuck up big time in Westeros: The "usurper's dogs" are all dead, but there are still around people who cherish their memory, and in the same time could be her allies, if only she doesn't go around insulting them with either badmouthing them or with "pardons".

(Sort of reminds me of the royal pardon that Alan Turing got posthumously for the crime of... being gay...

They practically sentenced to death one of the best minds and a war hero and had the audacity to "pardon" him!)

[El Guapo]

Yes, let's give a big ol cheer for Targaryen Absolutism. Or maybe it ought to be called Targaryen Totalitarianism.

Ist this land ruled by the Targs so good! Would you leave if you could?

Ja this land is ruled so good. We wouldn't leave it, even if we could!

I will drink to that!

:cheers:

[SeanF]

Well, that's very unfortunate. It would have been nice if the issues around Jon Arryn's could have been resolved peacefully. But, evidently, the question of whether absolutism becomes the dominant mode of political thought in Westeros will have to be decided by force of arms. If so, then it's hard for me to be anything but cool to the idea of Dany being queen. There are bigger issues here in play than whether one happens to like a character personally.

In my view, a "pardon" by Dany isn't good enough. It's would be insulting actually. Maybe Dany will have to invade the North where these issues can be settled.

Yes, let's give a big ol cheer for Targaryen Absolutism. Or maybe it ought to be called Targaryen Totalitarianism.

Ist this land ruled by the Targs so good! Would you leave if you could?

Ja this land is ruled so good. We wouldn't leave it, even if we could!

I think you're asking a hell of a lot from a Queen, for her to admit that a rebellion against her father was justified. A pardon/amnesty is probably the most that anyone can expect. I would, however, be unsympathetic if people were expected to confess their treason, and beg forgiveness.

[OldGimletEye]

I think you're asking a hell of a lot from a Queen, for her to admit that a rebellion against her father was justified. A pardon/amnesty is probably the most that anyone can expect. I would, however, be unsympathetic if people were expected to confess their treason, and beg forgiveness.

Then I guess the only thing to hope for is her military defeat somewhere. Apparently, what we have here is a failure to communicate.Some Khaleesies you just can't reach. That is the way she wants it, so that's the way she gets it.

[JonSnow4President]

Then I guess the only thing to hope for is her military defeat somewhere. Apparently, what we have here is a failure to communicate.Some Khaleesies you just can't reach. That is the way she wants it, so that's the way she gets it.

I'm not sure. Dany has (generally) been pretty reasonable, although she's shown the capacity for being ruthless to those she considers as having wronged her. I can see her realizing (privately) that the usurpers were actually doing the right thing, and I can see her screaming "This is my kingdom and I want it back!" like a child. We really just have to wait to find out.

Full disclosure, I identify as a Dany-disliker

[OldGimletEye]

I'm not sure. Dany has (generally) been pretty reasonable, although she's shown the capacity for being ruthless to those she considers as having wronged her. I can see her realizing (privately) that the usurpers were actually doing the right thing, and I can see her screaming "This is my kingdom and I want it back!" like a child. We really just have to wait to find out.

Full disclosure, I identify as a Dany-disliker

I don't necessarily disagree with this. To be honest, sometimes Dany has shown to be more reasonable than some of her fans.