Bakker XXXIV: Waiting for Grimdark (update: it’s here!)

[.H.]

Sil was dead when the womb-plague happened. I think Aurang is referring to the Battle of Pir-Pahal where the Inchoroi suffered great losses (including the death of Sil) due to Sil's impatience.

Oh, yeah, oops, I keep getting my chronology mixed up.

Back then, Earwa was mostly inhabited by the Nonmen, the humans who were there, the Emwama, were their slaves and had pretty much no power. The five tribes of men that we see in PoN/AE were in Eanna during that time.

Assuming that the 144,000 number applies only to Earwa, the Inchoroi did not need the Nonmen's help, they needed to kill them. However, if we assume that it applies to both Earwa and Eanna, then it still makes little sense to me that the Inchoroi would enlist the Nonmen to fight against the Men of Eanna. The Nonmen were by all accounts the more advanced and powerful race, they had the Gnosis while the humans had the Anagogis. The Inchoroi did actually incite the humans against the Nonmen simply by giving them the Tusk, and not by doing something so absurd as to make them immortal.

I've read a lot of theories regarding the womb-plague, none of them made much sense to be honest. I hope Bakker has a good answer to this.

I am first to admit I am grasping. I think it's the whole planet though, Wutteät says they reduced each world to 144,00.

The Womb-Plague definitely speaks to them wanting them alive, for some reason. The only reason I can think of is to use them. Use them for what though, I don't really know.

[Sci-2]

I think the Womb Plague was an accident, or at least partially one. If the Nonmen males & females were immortal and producing offspring the elimination of all humans would possibly still have been enough to reduce the population to 144K.

Then again perhaps the Womb Plague was supposed to kick in but not right away. I think immortality was supposed to engender trust between the Nonmen and Inchoroi, and afterward the Inchies would convince the Nonmen to help them eliminate humanity.

All that said, it's also weird to me that all of the Nonmen population was affected. Was it an air born bio-agent that granted immortality? And if the Inchies could grant immortality via their manipulation of Bios would that not be enough technical savvy to create the No-God? (Or was it Shae who came up with the No-God idea? Can't recall of the top of my head.)

[Hello World]

Bakker did say this regarding the Womb-Plague,

Regarding biological warfare, the suggestion is that the Inchoroi have long ago ceased understanding their own technology. This is a function of their moribund state as well as their immortality. The idea is that they've inherited an arsenal from their past, much of it damaged, and that those genomic weapons they do get off the ground, are the result of centuries of blind tinkering, cannibalizing, and scrounging. The Womb-Plague (see the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars in TTT), for instance, is an example of an ad hoc microbial weapon.

Although he may have been lying... I'm beginning to think that most of the answers that he used to give in those days were kinda "information as the text would have you believe". In other words, that's just what the TTT entry says, but may not be what actually happened. or something.

[Anatúrinbor]

There's a chance that the Inchoroi, when they first arrived, thought that humans were just animals. It's pretty clear that they wanted to exterminate the Nonmen (at least before the Womb-Plague, because there's still a chance that that was a metaphysical accident). By contrast there is hardly any evidence that they warred against the human population of the planet before the Consult was created.

[Callan S.]

Bakker did say this regarding the Womb-Plague,

Although he may have been lying... I'm beginning to think that most of the answers that he used to give in those days were kinda "information as the text would have you believe". In other words, that's just what the TTT entry says, but may not be what actually happened. or something.

Could you link to that interview, please? :)

I was kind of grooving on Sci's 'They wanted to make friends with the nonmen, but were impatient and really fucked it up' idea. But this makes it just a weapon again.

[Hello World]

That's from this thread.

[Castel]

Could you link to that interview, please? :)

I was kind of grooving on Sci's 'They wanted to make friends with the nonmen, but were impatient and really fucked it up' idea. But this makes it just a weapon again.

The problem with this is obvious though: what if you need to keep the population permanently below 144k. And you now have a bunch of immortal mega-powerful sorcerers breeding out there?

What if you reach the threshold and they start offsetting the humans you're butchering?

What if you basically bullshitted the 144K numbers and want to be really sure?

[Callan S.]

The problem with this is obvious though: what if you need to keep the population permanently below 144k. And you now have a bunch of immortal mega-powerful sorcerers breeding out there?

What if you reach the threshold and they start offsetting the humans you're butchering?

What if you basically bullshitted the 144K numbers and want to be really sure?

The treatment was probably supposed to just neuter them, not kill them. But they were impatient, fucked up and it killed the women. Or so it goes as a theory, anyway.

The Inchoroi as antinatalists, after all.

[Callan S.]

From the link

As Ketyai, Conphas would have dark hair - and if it's any consolation, I miss him too! I simply loved writing him.

For some reason this reminds me of Cnaiur both wanting Moe and yet rolling a chorae across his cheek as well.

[Anatúrinbor]

I still like that theory, though. The Inchoroi gave the Nonmen immortality in exchange for them not reproducing anymore. They probably assumed that even if the Nonmen discovered the truth, their reaction would be somewhat subdued compared to the war of extermination that the womb-plague triggered. As to how the women died, my guess is that it was something metaphysical more than a mundane screw up on the part of the physicians. Something that has to do with this,

Old women are more reconciled to death than old men. By bringing life to the world, we come to see ourselves as debtors. What's given is taken.

There is no indication that the Inchies were impatient here btw, everything was done according to plan and they returned to their Ark, only to have the women start dying.

(Of course this assumes that the Inchoroi did not have the capability to make an actual biological weapon, as they were only working with what they were left with.)

But fuck it, if Bakker is going with something like "they made immortal to give themselves time until they administered the microbe when they could have just healed them a bit" so be it.

On a side note, as the WP wasn't something perfect--it killed some of the men according to the glossary--I expect that it did not kill every single woman. And that's assuming that they all took it. Also according to the glossary, all Nonmen achieved immortality before the plague struck,

The Nonmen did in fact attain immortality, and the Inchoroi, claiming their work done, retired back to the Incû-Holoinas.

If only the men did, I don't think the Inchoroi could claim their work done. (Unless that was the initial agreement?)

So what I expect is that at least some Non-women survived the WP and became immortal, at least until they were caught by the men. Or they went into hiding and they still live.

[Anatúrinbor]

Also, remember that all of this comes from the Isuphiryas. Only one copy of that book was given to humans, by Nil'giccas. So he could have hidden whatever he wanted,

Their feud with the Inchoroi was theirs and theirs alone, so much so they denied their Mannish pupils all but the most elliptical knowledge of it.

That's all that we know of the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars and the Womb-Plague really, only the most elliptical knowledge. But that should change come TUC. Also, Nil'giccas is a liar. It is known,

Nilgiccas lied to you! What else could he do? Think! Think of the war they had just wonthink of the toll! The Nonmen had sacrificed everything, their wives, their daughters, to triumph over the Inchoroi. And now they discover that all along the Truth belonged to their foe?

Additionally, all the mannish copies of the book were later destroyed, except for one that was saved by Seswatha, who later delivered it to the publishers of the Three Seas. I'm sure Seswatha is just a good guy who likes saving books for the good of humanity. But he is also a fucking liar.

My point is, taking the "Cuno-Inchoroi Wars" entry in the glossary at face value is a mistake. There is almost certainly some deceptive info in there.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

Doubtful, probably Arabic like dunya.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunya

Interesting, very interesting. I'd thought for some reason that Bakker, as a Tolkien fan, had derived it from Dunedain way back.

[bakkerfans]

zoom!

http://i.imgur.com/8QparQX.jpg

[Callan S.]

The whole trust game is a bit extreme, anyway.

I mean, how do you know some needle is going to make you immortal?

So why did the nonmen (apart from their dying king) go 'oh yeah, needle me!'?

I'm assuming somehow they were capable of knowing how the treatment they were getting worked and that they were getting that exact treatment. Yet didn't know what the extra effect was going to be.

Otherwise it's a bit daft sounding - lets all just trust the guys that when we first met them we killed a pair of captives simply because we found them icky?

Did the king have that much influence over every single nonmen? Why did every single one of them submit to treatment (though maybe if it's desease like, it just needed a infected host in proximity to those who declined treatment)?

I love the poetry of it 'immortality but at what price?'. But the logistics leave me scratching my head. My heart's content but my intellect aint.

[Guest]

I think there's a mention of it seeming like it was questionned by some of the Ishroi at the time but then it appeared to be going OK, so they eventually caved. And they'd already seen the example of NIn'janjin not aging.

[Magnar of Skagos]

Pretty sure I saw Bakker at Tim Horton's a while back haha.

[.H.]

I think that the idea that the Isûphiryas is not whole reliable is probably pretty on point. It's the history of the war, from the Nonman perspective, written by Nonmen. Even if it isn't intentionally misleading (which is probable) it is still only half the story.

I still believe that Cû’jara-Cinmoi knew of the Inverse Fire and it would eventually cloud his judgement. I believe he learned of it from here:

Somehow (the Isûphiryas does not go into detail) Sirwitta managed to enter the Incû-Holoinas. A month passed, and all thought him lost. Then he reappeared, deranged, screeching claims so alarming that Oirinas and Oirûnas brought him directly to Cû’jara-Cinmoi. What was said between Sirwitta and the High King of Siöl is not recorded. The chroniclers say only that Cû’jara-Cinmoi, after hearing Sirwitta speak, ordered him put to death. A later entry, however, describes Sirwitta as “tongueless and imprisoned.” It appears the High King, for some unknown reason, had rescinded his warrant.

Why not put him to death? Perhaps because Cû’jara-Cinmoi did not want to send him knowingly in to damnation? Although, I can't really explain such sudden compassion.

I think there's a mention of it seeming like it was questionned by some of the Ishroi at the time but then it appeared to be going OK, so they eventually caved. And they'd already seen the example of NIn'janjin not aging.

Indeed, they had seen this:

Then Nin’janjin returned. Invoking the ancient codes, he appeared before Cû’jara-Cinmoi begging Mercy and Penance. When the High King of Siöl bid Nin’janjin come near so he might see him, he was astonished to discover his old adversary had not aged. Then Nin’janjin revealed his true reason for coming to Siöl. The Inchoroi, he said, were too terrified of Cû’jara-Cinmoi’s might to leave their Ark, so they dwelt in confinement and misery. They had sent him, he claimed, to sue for peace. They wished to know what tribute might temper the High King’s fury.

To which Cû’jara-Cinmoi replied: “I would be young of heart, face, and limb. I would banish Death from the halls of my people.”

The Second Watch was disbanded and the Inchoroi moved freely among the Cûnuroi of Siöl, becoming their physicians. They ministered to all, dispensing the remedies that would at once make the Nonmen immortal and doom them. Soon all the Cûnuroi of Eärwa, even those who had initially questioned Cû’jara-Cinmoi’s wisdom, had succumbed to the Inchoroi and their nostrums.

I feel like perhaps Cû’jara-Cinmoi was so frightened by what Sirwitta had told him, that he took the bait and bought in to the "immortality as salvation" that it seemed the Ichoroi were offering.

The Womb-Plague still doesn't feel like a weapon to me. Sil seems to have been of the mind "lets just kill 'em all" much to Aurang's later chagrin.

It seems like after Sil was gone, a more subtle plan was enacted, one to avoid direct battle. While they probably would have liked to simply make a virus that would wipe them out, I do not think they were capable of that. The Inchoroi knew they could not win a flat battle, that had been proven. A wholly new approach was needed.

Chances are good that they had already suffered enough losses that the real masters of the Tekne were gone. Maybe that was actually Sil (although, probably not, he seemed just like a brute-force type, which was probably why he was king).

Either way, the survivors were left to make due with what they had. When they realized, through Nin’janjin, that they could seduce the Nonmen, I think they set out on a plan of enlistment, rather than plain extermination (hadn't worked before).

After the disaster of Pir Pahal, the Inchoroi had seduced the practitioners of the Aporos, who had been forbidden from pursuing their art. Poisoned by knowledge, they devised the first of the Chorae to render their masters immune to Cûnuroi magic.

I think the seduction was with the promise of immortality. Perhaps spiced with a glimpse of the Inverse Fire. I don't buy that the Inchoroi didn't know how the immortality would effect the Nonmen women (they knew what it had done to their own women). Indeed, I think they wanted, more than anything, to ensure that the Nonmen couldn't out reproduce the Sranc (another proof that they had at least some knowledge of Nonmen biology, to know what the Womb-Plague would do). In other words, as Scott said in that interview, it was an ad-hoc "weapon." The immortality was both the bait and an unfortunate (from the Inchoroi perspective) side-effect, not the reverse.

[Guest]

I think that the idea that the Isûphiryas is not whole reliable is probably pretty on point. It's the history of the war, from the Nonman perspective, written by Nonmen. Even if it isn't intentionally misleading (which is probable) it is still only half the story.

Written by Nonmen, but the only surviving copies possibly edited by Seswatha. :)

[Hello World]

The whole trust game is a bit extreme, anyway.

I mean, how do you know some needle is going to make you immortal?

So why did the nonmen (apart from their dying king) go 'oh yeah, needle me!'?

I'm assuming somehow they were capable of knowing how the treatment they were getting worked and that they were getting that exact treatment. Yet didn't know what the extra effect was going to be.

Otherwise it's a bit daft sounding - lets all just trust the guys that when we first met them we killed a pair of captives simply because we found them icky?

Did the king have that much influence over every single nonmen? Why did every single one of them submit to treatment (though maybe if it's desease like, it just needed a infected host in proximity to those who declined treatment)?

I love the poetry of it 'immortality but at what price?'. But the logistics leave me scratching my head. My heart's content but my intellect aint.

Yeah, I never found the explanations to this convincing.

Soon all the Cûnuroi of Eärwa, even those who had initially questioned Cû’jara-Cinmoi’s wisdom, had succumbed to the Inchoroi and their nostrums.

Seriously, all of them? Even if we assume that they all trusted the obscenities with their own bodies, not a single one of them thought that immortality is not something desirable and wanted to just die?

The logistics of it don't make much sense to me either. The glossary says that the Nonmen did attain immortality and the Inchoroi declared their work done and left. For the Nonmen to think that they really became 'immortal', the Inchoroi must have remained among them for years, if not decades, until it became clear that the Nonmen are neither aging, nor dying. So how did the Inchoroi make sure that the women wouldn't die until after they left, or at least until they were in the act of leaving?

[Hello World]

But of course the Isuphiryas is Seswatha bullshit, just like the Dreams are Seswatha bullshit, and possibly even the Sagas.