Hello World Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 But Bakker said that Cnaiür’s arc is over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bryar Ashford Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Cnaiur's arc is over... Horde Champion Cnairgoth's [a bashrag fused together with 1/3 Cnaiur's body] arc is just beginning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Nah. nothing that elegant and simple. Though Meppa could lack a cock, however, that's unlikely given the author's predilections.Meppa is clearly Kellhus imprisoned in Cnaiur's healed body.How's that?Moenghus trapped Kellhus at the bottom of the pit, then he hijacked Kellhus' translocation spell and temporarily knocked Kellhus' soul outside then took over and completed the translocation spell (causing Kellhus body to vanish to its new location. Moenghus then cycled between his body and Kellhus' body rapidly, ala Shaeonanra. When Cnaiur arrived, Moenghus healed his body of all its scars, then allowed Cnaiur to Chorae him, but via some metaphysical voodoo, he used that to suck Cnaiur's soul out of his body, and blackness engulfs Cnaiur's soul as a result, Now Moenghus has abandoned his choraed body for Cnaiur's but is still doing the Shaeonanra soul-shuffle, now between Cnaiur's and Kellhus body's. Moenghus then kills the skin spy then takes Kellhus' soul, strips it of its identity and plops it back into Cnaiur's body and eventually he will train the thing called Meppa to be the ultimate Cishaurim.Then, Kellhus implanted in Cnaiur's transfigured body, Moenghus takes up more or less permanent residence in Kellhus' body. And like a skin spy, no one ever knows that a switch was made.And that's why Kellhus, like Cnaiur, was consumed by darkness at the end of each of the respective POVs, never to have a POV again in the series for either of them.Totes simple and clear as mud, amiright.Way to be the guy that wanders in after we all figured this shit out years ago and then blurt it out like you were the first one to come up with it. Shhh, the adults are talking. Did you know that Sandor and Gregor Clegane are brothers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Seriously speaking, the Cnaiür = Meppa theory is one of the most elegant theories I’ve seen in any fantasy series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Maybe Meppa is Leweth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 On the Dunyain feminine: simple might be best here. Kellhus is supposed to represent the lie of modernity (according to Bakker) - that rights for women are simply there because it was more efficient or effective to use women in the industrial age. (this is 100% wrong, btw, but that's Bakker's stated theory several times). What would be the turn for Kellhus' supposed emancipation? It wouldn't be that women are actually in control - that's certainly not problematizing feminism. No, that doesn't work thematically. What might work instead is the axolotl tanks of some sort. Akka finds out that the Dunyain have determined that, since they've eliminated all other needs (manpower requirements, love, industry, nurturing) the only thing that women are useful for is breeding. Perhaps they can even tie into it that because a woman can bring a life into the world they are more connected with the Outside - and therefore flawed, unable to control their ability to know the Logos. This is the natural, obvious conclusion, and so all Dunyain accept it as reasonable and don't bother fighting it. The problematization comes from the realization that the only reason that men give women rights is because men want something. When men do not want anything from women, women get nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.H. Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 On Meppa, it seems more plausible to me that he may be Moenghus in Cnaiür's body, but who knows... On another note, Aurax offers an interesting commentary on females in his only appearance: These things make you weak, it said, tossing her like a sack to cold grasses. With a look, it gave her to the Sranc—to their licentious fury. Once again, it asked the question. Probably not very salient, but possibly if we think that the Dunyain are mirror-images of the Inchoroi (or something like that). In rereading that part, it is interesting to me Aurax retains his own body, but Aurang seems to be reliant on the Synthese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 In terms of elegance, the 'second apocalypse = war on men' theory is miles ahead of everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.H. Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Support of Kalbear's theory in 4 Revelations: A man reclines in the grasses that wreath his head, stares down at him with uncommon familiarity. And he just… pushes… her… Aisralu… A motion too banal to be anything but murderous and insane, opening a door, perhaps, or closing one, and he feels it, the kiss of skin forming to skin, the hand of the father across the nape of the daughter, the cherished daughter; a push and nothing more, an effort slight enough to slip the nets of awareness, to be no effort at all, and still, miraculously, impossibly, violent with excess, savage, a crime unlike any other; the bare palm against the nape of her neck, her shoulders hunched about a ravaged womb, his arm extending, the gentle insistence of nudging a younger brother toward a maid, and an entire life tipping, a cherished life, an engulfing presence, tipping, how? how? the push floating into slipping, plummet… The wind barges through the walnut tree, a groaning susurrus. Tipping, the beloved voice crimped high, a kicking intake of breath, a sound that should strike sparks. No… And a life slips into the abyss, dropping like water, lines sprawling across the plummet, shrinking into something small enough to swallowed… Shrieking. No… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 What would be the turn for Kellhus' supposed emancipation? It wouldn't be that women are actually in control - that's certainly not problematizing feminism. No, that doesn't work thematically. What might work instead is the axolotl tanks of some sort. Akka finds out that the Dunyain have determined that, since they've eliminated all other needs (manpower requirements, love, industry, nurturing) the only thing that women are useful for is breeding. Perhaps they can even tie into it that because a woman can bring a life into the world they are more connected with the Outside - and therefore flawed, unable to control their ability to know the Logos. This is the natural, obvious conclusion, and so all Dunyain accept it as reasonable and don't bother fighting it. +1 On Meppa, it seems more plausible to me that he may be Moenghus in Cnaiür's body, but who knows... Not exactly, he transferred some part of himself into Cnaiür, but he didn‘t replace him entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 If we attend to the text, we shall discover that there is no mystery to the Dunyain feminine, we already know all we need know. “After all,” she said, “what man would strike down his wife?” He drew his sword, Enshoiya, pressed its point against the white tile floor between them. “A Dûnyain,” he replied. Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Thousandfold Thought: The Prince of Nothing, Book Three (Kindle Locations 5028-5030). Overlook TP. Kindle Edition. Her womb had cursed her, even as it made her what she was. Immortality and bliss—this was the living promise all women bore between their thighs. Strong sons and gasping climax. If what men called truth were ever the hostage of their desires, how could they fail to make slaves of their women? To hide them like hoarded gold. To feast on them like melons. To discard them like rinds. Was this not why he used her? The promise of sons in her hips? Dûnyain sons. Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Thousandfold Thought: The Prince of Nothing, Book Three (Kindle Locations 5130-5134). Overlook TP. Kindle Edition. Dunyain not only enslave their women, Dunyain not only hide their women (in the thousand thousand halls), Dunyain cannibalize their women, and then they discard the used up rinds, the husks. Probably very like the bodies Shaeonanra is using. Axlotl tanks indeed. *drops mic* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Kellhus seemed to be familiar with the dynamics of husband/wife relationship/love while with Leweth. But it might just be that he learned things that quickly, maybe that's why Moenghus put Leweth in Kellhus way immediately after Ishual. :dunno:I’m aware of the theory that Moënghus had some control, sorcerously, over Leweth during the prologue, but what occurred to me recently while reading that section is that Moënghus didn’t just pick Leweth because he was already living in Sobel alone, he brought him out of Atrithau and -- possibly -- even had something to do with his wife’s death. Atrithau seemed a tomb after she died. One morning they called the muster for the militia to man the walls, and I remember staring off to the north. The forests seemed to . . . beckon me somehow. The terror of my childhood had become a sanctuary! Everyone in the city, even my brothers and my compatriots in the district cohort, seemed to secretly exult in her death—in my misery! I had to . . . I was forced to... Seriously? Everyone, even his brothers exulted in his wife’s death? And the forest ‘beckoned’ to him until he was ‘forced’ to leave Atrithau? That is just Moënghus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I’m aware of the theory that Moënghus had some control, sorcerously, over Leweth during the prologue, but what occurred to me recently while reading that section is that Moënghus didn’t just pick Leweth because he was already living in Sobel alone, he brought him out of Atrithau and -- possibly -- even had something to do with his wife’s death. Seriously? Everyone, even his brothers exulted in his wife’s death? And the forest ‘beckoned’ to him until he was ‘forced’ to leave Atrithau? That is just Moënghus.Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 So should we expect Ishual to be a topos, what with all the enslaved Dunyain women that have died there since the First Apocalypse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 the dunyain women and the rejects that become skin spy identification training ought to create a topos. But a topos would be noticed by the dunyain, the world would start to contradict their principles, so I imagine the accumulated suffering of 2000 years hasn't yet hit the critical threshhold for such (144,000, the very number of doom?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bryar Ashford Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 So after their son is born they have to kill the mother and that's like the Dunyain graduation ceremony...I could see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 I don’t know. As far as I understand, Cil-Aujas housed the Emwama slaves for 10,000 years. (The source of this is Mimara, so she may be wrong.) The Dûnyain have been around for – what? 2000? And I believe the number of defectives is far smaller than the slaves of the Nonmen. If Ishuäl showed signs of topofying already, the Nonman civilisation should have collapsed much earler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Unless the nonmen encounter was engineered as well, Leweth was perilously close to the sranc. As in, how would you know he'd survive to do his patrol and pick up Kellhus after his breaking point? Also how did Moe organise it - he'd left some time ago. The Dunyain aren't that great at long range manipulation - its a big lack of data. Leaves me wondering what the whole 'the world conspires' thing refers to - to what other player that might have placed Leweth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 But a topos would be noticed by the dunyain, the world would start to contradict their principles, Moe said he'd walked the world and nothing had contradicted the principle - he'd most likely seen the phenomena call topos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Unless the nonmen encounter was engineered as well, Leweth was perilously close to the sranc. As in, how would you know he'd survive to do his patrol and pick up Kellhus after his breaking point? Also how did Moe organise it - he'd left some time ago. The Dunyain aren't that great at long range manipulation - its a big lack of data. Leaves me wondering what the whole 'the world conspires' thing refers to - to what other player that might have placed Leweth. I really like the idea that Mek at somepoint became Moengus's creature, but then I realize that it would take some good acting on Mek's part with the whole "what are you!?" reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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