Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I believe in TUC we're going to find out that the whole condition ground and all that doesn't work as well and Kelhuss and Moe would like to believe it does. He tried to condition Akka's path to Ishual and we'll his conditioning went to shit, IMHO. There is absolutely no way he could have known what would happen between Akka and Nil'gaccas. Whatever he had planned is not what happened, I do know that.As much as some of these theories do make sense and are quit well thought out. when Moe and Kelhuss have there meeting, I always read it that Moe basically admits that what he had planned for Kelhuss didn't go the way he expected it to go. As many have said before and I agree, Moe was telling the truth in that meeting. Had no reason to lie, and he all but says it didn't happen to his liking. That Kelhuss is a nutcase. And he had to "create" Meppa as a way to live on and make sure Kelhuss doesn't fuck shit up. Problem is, after whatever happened when his soul and Cnauir meshed together, now he truly doesn't have a damn clue who he is or what purpose he has anymore. Didnt work out like he thought, but he will awaken somehow in TUC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Noone has agency, agency is a delusion of the ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Noone has agency, agency is a delusion of the ignorant. The truth is even worse: in point of fact simply muttering the word 'agency' while believing it exists makes one vulnerable to Chorae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolivar Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Noone has agency, agency is a delusion of the ignorant.That's what jumped out to me most about the conditioned ground quote - that Kellhus speaks as if he actually believed that he had free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 So are people saying Moe has free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 So are people saying Moe has free will? Lol. No. Just a cog in someone's grander scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Lol. No. Just a cog in someone's grander scheme. If the forum allowed us to link in pictures, I'd totally post a picture of "The Church Lady" with the caption "Could it be.... Seswatha?!!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Something i was thinking about this morning on the way to work is how Bakker deliberately withholds information to actively make the reader unable to know everything - with the presumable goal to make the reader very cognizant that their view of the world is limited and subjective. It's somewhat frustrating in the same way that shows like Lost are frustrating; unless the payoff is hit really well, it can be a major letdown and turnoff. It's still an interesting conscious choice, if it is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 You guys are saying that Kelhuss had no free will, right? Well proof of his free will is when he decides to go onto the circumfix. That was his choice alone, and that is made clear in his meeting with Moe. I just think there has been too much time in between books.And to clarify what I was meaning about the conditioned ground, I believe that Moe conditioned Kelhuss's path to Cnauir at least. But it didn't work out perfect, Serwe wasn't expected as so many have pointed out. This is why I believe they all still have free will, even with the conditioning. Things are gonna happen which cannot possibly be foreseen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 You guys are saying that Kelhuss had no free will, right? Well proof of his free will is when he decides to go onto the circumfix. That was his choice alone, and that is made clear in his meeting with Moe. it's clear that Moe wants him to think that. It's clear that that's what Kellhus wants to believe. Whether that is actually true or not really depends on how reliable a narrator Kellhus or Moe actually are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 it's clear that Moe wants him to think that. It's clear that that's what Kellhus wants to believe. Whether that is actually true or not really depends on how reliable a narrator Kellhus or Moe actually are.Right. But, ya know, when do we go from speculative theories into creating a brand new story? SOME of the text has to be true, or, what the hell would be the sense of the story. Akka, is my prime example. Kelhuss tried to control that situation, I'll admit that much. But, was that his intended outcome? If so, that's some piss poor writing. We can just chalk everything up to some God controlling everything? I don't think so. This is a great story, and as you said in your previous post, Bakker leaving so many unanswered questions, the story lends itself to these crazy theories. And, the payoff better be well worth it, to make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Just finished KoMH.Am I right in assuming that a demon came out of Eryelk's cock and that Sumiloam was fucked to death? Also, what the hell was the king doing bowing among the slaves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolivar Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Just finished KoMH. Am I right in assuming that a demon came out of Eryelk's cock and that Sumiloam was fucked to death? Also, what the hell was the king doing bowing among the slaves?I actually think it was an interrogarion, with her asking him why he's come to Carythusal and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 You read it wrong then, or at least you didn't read all of it. Bolting terror. Something horrid convolving about his hips, climbing, mounting ... He roared as a dragon, a demon, in release ... Ravish him! ... Sack his flesh! ... Rape! Rape! So the dragon head took over his phallus and then raped Sumiloam to death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Just finished KoMH. Am I right in assuming that a demon came out of Eryelk's cock and that Sumiloam was fucked to death? Also, what the hell was the king doing bowing among the slaves? I do not believe that's what happened and I thought the king might've had a cuckold fetish and was there to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I do not believe that's what happened and I thought the king might've had a cuckold fetish and was there to watch. Agree, but it also seemed like The SS knew this and set him up to murder both of them. I'm assuming he killed all or most of the slaves as well. I don't think the demon took possession of just his dick and used it as a weapon, I think the SS were able to use the Daimos (sp?) to have him be possessed by a Ciphrang and that it has something to do with him having two hearts and an upside down soul. A place for the Outside to leak in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Lol. No. Just a cog in someone's grander scheme. Are people saying that someone has free will? Or is it someone elses grander schemes all the way down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 It is always turtles all the way down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I'm saying there IS free will, that occasionally fucks with whoever's grander scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Agree, but it also seemed like The SS knew this and set him up to murder both of them. I'm assuming he killed all or most of the slaves as well. I don't think the demon took possession of just his dick and used it as a weapon, I think the SS were able to use the Daimos (sp?) to have him be possessed by a Ciphrang and that it has something to do with him having two hearts and an upside down soul. A place for the Outside to leak in. Why did they need to 'Ciphrang him'? Didn't they just need him to do whatever he did in the tavern in the beginning when he killed the SS sorcerer? Shinurta had no need to curse him, he realized. He need only trust the curse that was his blood. He need only know him to transform him into a knife for yet another hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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