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Bakker XXXIV: Waiting for Grimdark (update: it’s here!)


Happy Ent

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A couple of new things I noticed in a TTT reread:



In the 3rd Caraskand Chapter when Cnaiur meets with the synthese the bird knows Cnaiur hunts AM. How does the synthese know that? They don't even know what the Dunyain are?



Also, the synthese tells Cnaiur "In benjuka every move bespeaks a new rule. We are that new rule, Scylvendi. Not even the dead escape the Plate."



This leads me to believe that Cnaiur is not dead at the end, that the skin spies save him and do something with him. I don't think he'll actually be Cnaiur again but I expect some part of him to pop up in TUC or TSTSNBN.


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In the 3rd Caraskand Chapter when Cnaiur meets with the synthese the bird knows Cnaiur hunts AM. How does the synthese know that? They don't even know what the Dunyain are?

We don't know that for certain. If this indeed happens in TTT, we knows that the Consult is obsessed about learning about the Dunyain by the end of Warrior-Prophet.

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We don't know that for certain. If this indeed happens in TTT, we knows that the Consult is obsessed about learning about the Dunyain by the end of Warrior-Prophet.

You are right. I guess they could've found out what the Dunyain are between the end of tWP and the beginning of tTT but that still doesn't explain how they know about AM or that C hunts him. Only AK and C know about AM at this point, at least from what the reader knows.

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If they are all clones, why bother still having wangs? That's hardly the shortest path ... the shortest path would be to have a shorter part...



Edit: Then again maybe that's what the whole 'seed is strong' thing actually is - a worldborn like conceit that's the exact opposite of the situation. They were actually becoming infertile.


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You are right. I guess they could've found out what the Dunyain are between the end of tWP and the beginning of tTT but that still doesn't explain how they know about AM or that C hunts him. Only AK and C know about AM at this point, at least from what the reader knows.

Yeah, and just to be clear, I wasn't saying that your point was invalid. Just that it wasn't necessarily ironclad timeline-wise. I try to weigh in on that type of stuff in the threads to the extent that I can just so that we can theorize with the best information available.

ETA: That is to say that it is quite interesting if the Consult knew what Nayu was up to.

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Who was watching through the candles when kellhus asked akka about a second inuttrral?

Is there confirmation that there was a fire going in that scene?

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Is there confirmation that there was a fire going in that scene?

Kellhus nodded. “Has anyone experimented with further inutteral strings?”

Achamian swallowed. “What do you mean?”

By some coincidence two of the hanging lanterns guttered at the same time, drawing Achamian’s eyes upward. They instantly resumed their soundless illumination.

“Has anyone devised Cants consisting of two inutteral strings?”

The “Third Phrase” was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su’juroit, the great Cûnuroi Witch-King. But for some reason, Achamian found himself loath to relate the tale.

“No,” he lied. “It’s impossible.”

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This is going to sound bad, but I think that the whole point of the Dunyain breeding program is to minimize the 'female side' as much as possible, which, in Earwa, is associated with passions. The way their program works is that with every generation the Dunyain become more and more male. Their ultimate goal is to one day reach the point of pure maleness, what they call the Absolute, which is to say they will turn into sentient semen.

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Posted this at SA, but I'll just lob it out here too, for what it's worth. Apologies for it's hackneyed style:

So, I was trying to do a little research on the Inverse Fire, trying to discover if there is evidence that anyone had seen it and not been converted, when I stumbled upon an "answer" (or at least, something of a satisfactory explanation for myself) to something that has always bothered me: the Womb-Plague. I present what might be a new theory.

At first blush, it made no sense. What kind of garbage weapon makes your enemy immortal? Sure, it extinguished future generations of Nonmen, but if you could kill all the women, why not kill all the men too and be done with it? I tried to explain it to myself that perhaps the Tekne was incompletely known or was unable to be wielded effectively, but both of those came to me as hollow explanations.

A while back, I took to think of why they would want to keep them alive for so long. Was it just to torture them? That didn't make much sense though either, since they could have had more victims if they let them continue to procreate. Something was missing but I didn't have the time to find it.

In researching the Inverse Fire, I wanted to see who had seen (or most probably seen it) and what happened to them. I believe I might have found a much more convincing explaination of the Womb-Plague instead. Ready for it? It was not a weapon at all, it was an enlistment. Even more to the point, it was given to remake the Nonmen in the Inchoroi's image.

Follow me through here: as the Inchoroi wait in the Ark during the Second Watch, in the company of the traitor Nonman king Nin’janjin, I believe they realize two things. One, that the Inverse Fire can effect Nonmen (and men as well) and two, that the Nonmen are not all that unlike themselves. Realizing that it would be easier to fight their damnation collectively, the Inchoroi decide to set the Nonmen on the same path they took themselves, in the hopes that the Nonmen would turn willingly to the Inverse Fire and in the interest of their own salvation, help bring about the sealing of the world from the Outside.

The fact that all the women are killed in this plan is very salient here, since it cuts off any idea of "carrying on" through progeny. The eternal life granted leaves them to work as long as they need to avoid damnation, faced with no other real option for self-preservation.

Certainly seems logical, how much easier would it be to reduce the world to 144,000 souls if your forces working toward that end are about that number or more?

I don't know if this is "right" in the strict sense, but I know it makes a lot more sense to me this way then the idea that the Womb-Plague was a failed weapon. Failed enlistment tool, yes, definitely.

Hopefully this makes sense outside my head though...

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On a side note, I believe that Mekeritrig was not damned according to the IF, because his reaction was different from the two Ishroi.



As to the Womb-Plague, if they killed all the women to enlist the men, that still brings up the question of why didn't they just kill everyone.


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On a side note, I believe that Mekeritrig was not damned according to the IF, because his reaction was different from the two Ishroi.

As to the Womb-Plague, if they killed all the women to enlist the men, that still brings up the question of why didn't they just kill everyone.

Prima facie, yes, I agree about Mekeritrig. However, considering his later actions, I'm not so sure. He's something of a curiosity, I think that because he was a Quya and a Siqu, the effect of the Inverse Fire was different for him.

In my mind it's one of two possibilities about the Womb-Plague. Either they thought they were really doing them a service, or they honesty thought they needed their help.

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Mek strikes me more as erratic than IFic.




In my mind it's one of two possibilities about the Womb-Plague. Either they thought they were really doing them a service, or they honesty thought they needed their help.





Their help in what? If they only killed the Nonmen they would have won.


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(Not connected to the very interesting discussion you guys are having) I've watched a really old video interview of Bakker from 2009 because it was hosted by Fantasy Hrvatska(Croatia) and because I was interested. In the second part, the interviewer ask him, to paraphrase, what is the recipe for writing good plot/characters and Bakker replies(also bit of paraphrasing): lots of good luck, couple bags of good weed, a drop of childhood, too much porn.



Classic Bakker.


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Their help in what? If they only killed the Nonmen they would have won.

I think that Sil wanted to enlist the Nonmen, have them help in reducing the world and sealing it. Aurang himself says "But for Sil’s impatience, he and his brothers would have won, and all this—this world—would be moot."

My guess is that Sil was too quick to want to the world closed (and was possibly surprised by the presence of magic). Instead of letting them brew up some Tekne solution, he rushed to try to tempt and convert the Nonmen to their side, probably with the same old technique that made themselves immortal.

I mean, I'm guessing, we're missing a ton of pieces here...

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My guess is that Sil was too quick to want to the world closed (and was possibly surprised by the presence of magic). Instead of letting them brew up some Tekne solution, he rushed to try to tempt and convert the Nonmen to their side, probably with the same old technique that made themselves immortal.

Sil was dead when the womb-plague happened. I think Aurang is referring to the Battle of Pir-Pahal where the Inchoroi suffered great losses (including the death of Sil) due to Sil's impatience.

I think that Sil wanted to enlist the Nonmen, have them help in reducing the world and sealing it. Aurang himself says "But for Sil’s impatience, he and his brothers would have won, and all this—this world—would be moot."

Back then, Earwa was mostly inhabited by the Nonmen, the humans who were there, the Emwama, were their slaves and had pretty much no power. The five tribes of men that we see in PoN/AE were in Eanna during that time.

Assuming that the 144,000 number applies only to Earwa, the Inchoroi did not need the Nonmen's help, they needed to kill them. However, if we assume that it applies to both Earwa and Eanna, then it still makes little sense to me that the Inchoroi would enlist the Nonmen to fight against the Men of Eanna. The Nonmen were by all accounts the more advanced and powerful race, they had the Gnosis while the humans had the Anagogis. The Inchoroi did actually incite the humans against the Nonmen simply by giving them the Tusk, and not by doing something so absurd as to make them immortal.

I've read a lot of theories regarding the womb-plague, none of them made much sense to be honest. I hope Bakker has a good answer to this.

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