Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I wonder if Howland Reed has the Knight of the Laughing tree armour stashed. Arya is nearing Lyanna's Harrenhal age and her doppleganger. There cant be much armour around to fit a woman. Now that is Oedipal!

What are you doing?

[lojzelote]

Mind you, fucked up doesn't mean destructive or toxic. Them being fucked up by their life experiences could be the reason for being attracted to the person they grew up as sibling. It doesn't mean that the relationship must necessarily end up in tragedy or be otherwise unhealthy.

Also, I do not believe it would be a literal Oedipus analogy. Yes, Stark features are Stark :). And, it kinda render all the pre-existing feelings for each other pointless. If they fall in love, IMO, it will be because of what relationship they had before, not inspite of.

Oedipus complex, on the other hand... ;)

Well, according to Cersei: "'Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same." So "fucked up" may be his modus operandi. Of course, Cersei is a dubious source of wisdom, but taking into consideration the cases of romantic love which George presented to us so far, I tend to think he may agree with her to a certain extent. It is true that their love didn't usually kill the lovers, but it was dangerous to those around them.

BTW, I think this quote is relevant to Greymoon and ANV's discussion. I used to bring up this quote when people where arguing that Jon and Dany will be totes enemies because the rose in Dany's vision smelled sweet and sweetness has allegedly negative connotations in Dany's storyline (which I don't believe)... that line always guided me into the opposite direction as far as their potential relationship is concerned. Problematic, sure, antagonistic, not so much.

I wonder if Howland Reed has the Knight of the Laughing tree armour stashed. Arya is nearing Lyanna's Harrenhal age and her doppleganger. There cant be much armour around to fit a woman. Now that is Oedipal!

I can be sort of daft, so don't be cross with me if I didn't get the joke, but I'm sure you have to know your mother to have an Oedipal complex for her. Otherwise you might also say that Arya is Electra for Uncle Brandon.

[Greymoon]

I have never read Lolita, but if I imagine that it would depend on two factors:

1, did Hubert raise his stepdaughter since infancy

2, and did Nabokov condone his actions?

I'm all for Jon/Arya if it's portrayed as a fucked up relationship. Or perhaps if it was done in an Oedipus Rex fashion and they didn't recognize each other. But really, even if Arya was wearing a Faceless Men mask or something, I would have a hard time to believe that she wouldn't recognize him. He was almost grown when they separated and if Craster's reaction is anything to go by, those long Stark faces are kinda distinctive. ;)

I don't believe that two siblings can meet after a three/four years long separation and fall in love when they find out one of them was adopted, unless the dymanics in their family had been super messed up. Such a discovery woudn't make them out of sudden strangers any more than it would make Arya and Jon cousins.

Personally I'm not so sure I will like what he writes whatever it is. For one, the Dany/Drogo relationship which has been noted above has always made me feel uncomfortable, and if one searches through this forum, they will find a number of threads where many people critize his portrayal of their relationship because they see it as a case of Stockholm Syndrome, rather than a healthy, genuine love story.

To be brutally honest, this potential storyline reminds me a bit of fanfic writers, who just have to transform every deep, meaningful relationship into a romance. (I will never forget my shock when as a thirteen years old internet virgin I had first tried to find other fans of Supernatural on the net and visited a fanfiction site dedicated to that series.... and to Dean/Sam in particular... that experience scarred me for life, I tell ya.) But I keep hoping George has grown wiser since then. If not, then I can do nothing about it, except to disagree with his views.

No, he didn't raise her since infancy, but she was 12, while he was 37 iirc.... Nabokov wrote the story. Did he condone Humbert's infatuation with Lolita? I don't think so, but he found it interesting to write about...It was just one example.... Thomas Mann wrote about a adult man's infatuations with adolescent boys.... The author, narrator and main protagonists are different people, anyway. I could have said the Reader, as well, for example. The idea behind is 'forbidden love', a 'love' that goes against conventions.

Lolita is an invented story, anyway, not a real story. But all things considered, the context is important. Arya/Jon would be happening in a medieval context that is close to, but not similar to our own, where cousin marriages are frequent, and even uncle/niece, aunt/nephew are not prohibited...plus, where the former ruling family had a tradition for sibling marriage....and, I believe even wards could potentially marry a daughter of the house? What difference is there between Arya/Jon and Petyr/Lysa? or Petyr/Cat? They grew up together...

Lolita is happening in the 1950s in our real world. It's pedophilia by any modern definition. So, it appears objectively worse...yet, it is a classic novel, considered one of the master pieces of 20th century literature. Its subject certainly is controversial...anyway, I'm not comparing Nabokov and GRRM, lol. Just, while I wouldn't say GRRM necessarily aims at controversy, do we have any sort of proof, that he doesn't ? at least, a little bit? And if he did, would it lessen the quality of the story he is telling?

For the case of Dany and Drogo, in all honestly I never saw it as Stockholm Syndrome. In the book I never read their relationship as being particularly difficult, in context and compared to the general situation young maidens find themselves in, in westeros. The context is important.

A high born girl in asoiaf (as in our middle ages) knows that she will have little say in her marriage and choice of husband. She knows that, from the moment she is a young child. She knows she might not even get to meet her husband before hand. There is no huge difference between Dany's and Roslin's plight, it's a common situation. Happened to Lysa Arryn as well...

It's not Stockholm Syndrome so much as the fact that these characters grew up with different norms than ours. Dany loved Drogo, this is how GRRM intended to write it. This is how I read it. If someone doesn't understand it that way, imo, it's either because the show has biased them against the relationship -- because, the portrayal on the show was badly made, tbh -- or because they are having trouble placing the story in its context.

If it were the real world, sure I'd call human right activist and have them do something against arranged marriages, especially when the brides are that young. But it's not real world, and that is the norm in asoiaf. We must deal with it, as a historian deals with it when studying European history. We contextualize.

In any case, I have bigger issue with Arya's young age, than with the fact that they are cousins, or spent nine years of their life together...especially considering how traumatizing these years apart were for Arya. She's changed, a lot. That little girl she was is dead. GRRM said she's more mature than a 40 year old, truly. Jon is changing a lot as well....so while they would probably recognize themselves, mentally, they are both different people.

I don't know what will happen between them, if anything happens, but I just trust GRRM to write a good story, is all.

EDIT: spelling

[lojzelote]

No, he didn't raise her since infancy, but she was 12, while he was 37 iirc.... Nabokov wrote the story. Did he condone Humbert's infatuation with Lolita? I don't think so, but he found it interesting to write about...It was just one example.... Thomas Mann wrote about a adult man's infatuations with adolescent boys.... The author, narrator and main protagonists are different people, anyway. I could have said the Reader, as well, for example. The idea behind is 'forbidden love', a 'love' that goes against conventions.

Lolita is an invented story, anyway, not a real story. But all things considered, the context is important. Arya/Jon would be happening in a medieval context that is close to, but not similar to our own, where cousin marriages are frequent, and even uncle/niece, aunt/nephew are not prohibited...plus, where the former ruling family had a tradition for sibling marriage....and, I believe even wards could potentially marry a daughter of the house? What difference is there between Arya/Jon and Petyr/Lysa? or Petyr/Cat? They grew up together...

Lolita is happening in the 1950s in our real world. It's pedophilia by any modern definition. So, it appears objectively worse...yet, it is a classic novel, considered one of the master pieces of 20th century literature. It's subject certainly is controversial...anyway, I'm not comparing Nabokov and GRRM, lol. Just, while I wouldn't say GRRM necessarily aims at controversy, do we have any sort of proof, that he doesn't ? at least, a little bit? And if he did, would it lessen the quality of the story he is telling?

For the case of Dany and Drogo, in all honestly I never saw it as Stockholm Syndrome. In the book I never read their relationship as being particularly difficult, n context and compared to the general situation young maidens find themselves in, in westeros. The context is important.

A high born girl in asoiaf (as in our middle ages) knows that she will have little say in her marriage and choice of husband. She knows that, from the moment she is a young child. She knows she might not even get to meet her husband before hand. There is huge difference between Dany's and Roslin's plight, it's a common situation. Happened to Lysa Arryn as well...

It's not Stockholm Syndrome so much as the fact that these characters grew up with different norms than ours. Dany loved Drogo, this is how GRRM intended to write it. This is how I read it. If someone doesn't understand it that way, imo, it's either because the show has biased them against the relationship -- because, the portrayal on the show was badly made, tbh -- or because they are having trouble placing the story in its context.

If it were the real world, sure I'd call human right activist and have them do something against arranged marriages, especially when the brides are that young. But it's not real world, and that is the norm in asoiaf. We must deal with it, as a historian deals with it when studying European history. We contextualize.

In any case, I have bigger issue with Arya's young age, than with the fact that they are cousins, or spent nine years of their life together...especially considering how traumatizing these years apart were for Arya. She's changed, a lot. That little girl she was is dead. GRRM said she's more mature than a 40 year old, truly. Jon is changing a lot as well....so while they would probably recognize themselves, mentally, they are both different people.

I don't know what will happen between them, if anything happens, but I just trust GRRM to write a good story, is all.

As I said in later posts, my main issue would be if GRRM wrote it as a completely normal, healthy relationship. Nabokov probably didn't write Humbert's desire for his young stepdaughter as a totally normal, natural occurence.

Whether Arya and Jon are biologically 'only' cousins matters little. Socially they are (half)siblings. To use my earlier analogy, it's completely accepted in our time that unrelated people marry, but if two siblings find out they are not biologically related, they're not likely to enter a romantic relationship because they still view each other as siblings. Of course GRRM is entitled to write what he sees fit in his own story, but I as a reader am entitled to call BS when I think it's BS. I understand your mileage about what's BS may vary.

The show didn't turn me against Drogo/Dany, it was the book, actually. In this case I didn't really mind as much that she was only thirteen (although it didn't help it any), but there's that passage where Dany describes that her bottom parts are sore from riding for whole days and it makes sex very painful, but she feels she owes it to Drogo, so she doesn't say anything, but cries into pillows while they're at it and even contemplates committing suicide because she's just so miserable...

At first it had not come easy. The khalasar had broken camp the morning after her wedding, moving east toward Vaes Dothrak, and by the third day Dany thought she was going to die. Saddle sores opened on her bottom, hideous and bloody. Her thighs were chafed raw, her hands blistered from the reins, the muscles of her legs and back so wracked with pain that she could scarcely sit. By the time dusk fell, her handmaids would need to help her down from her mount.

Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night...

Not my kind of thing.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I can be sort of daft, so don't be cross with me if I didn't get the joke, but I'm sure you have to know your mother to have an Oedipal complex for her. Otherwise you might also say that Arya is Electra for Uncle Brandon.

Its one of those explanations that comes up a lot. Arya and Jon are close because Arya is like Lyanna. Of course Jon never knew Lyanna to make the connection, so he has no memory of what he is supposedly longing for.

We were discussing the idea that GRRM would change his plans. Arya_Nym stated that she thinks he's just going to go for it regardless Arya's age. I do have a quote that could back that up

GRRM: [about fans figuring out the ending] “So what do I do then? Do I change it?” Martin mused. “I wrestled with that issue and I came to the conclusion that changing it would be a disaster, because the clues were there… so I’m just going to go ahead.”

If he has been building to something, he's not dropping it.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

We were discussing the idea that GRRM would change his plans. Arya_Nym stated that she thinks he's just going to go for it regardless Arya's age. I do have a quote that could back that up

I believe the quote we're all looking for here is:

"If a 12 year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."-GRRM.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I believe the quote we're all looking for here is:

"If a 12 year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."-GRRM.

That is another good one! So we know that age is not going to be a factor to GRRMs plans for Arya and that if he's set it up in the previous books with hints he's going through with it without the 5 year gap undeterred. I assume he's exaggerating with 'conquer the world' but it does suggest the stage is set for Arya's re-entry in epic proportions.

Sometimes I think we Arya fans are too small scale in our ambitions. Predictions for Arya are always so depressing, she dies, she takes a second life as a wolf, she's a subordinate to Dany/Sansa/Jon, she'll forget who she is, she'll be an average hired assassin or Jeyne will take her place permanently. Its like we feel embarrassed to suggest she'll get any power at all. Like we have been battered into believing that the only way you can get power is by playing the games of Westerosi men and fitting our criteria to that. Nymeria said otherwise.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

That is another good one! So we know that age is not going to be a factor to GRRMs plans for Arya and that if he's set it up in the previous books with hints he's going through with it without the 5 year gap undeterred. I assume he's exaggerating with 'conquer the world' but it does suggest the stage is set for Arya's re-entry in epic proportions.

Sometimes I think we Arya fans are too small scale in our ambitions. Predictions for Arya are always so depressing, she dies, she takes a second life as a wolf, she's a subordinate to Dany/Sansa/Jon, she'll forget who she is, she'll be an average hired assassin or Jeyne will take her place permanently. Its like we feel embarrassed to suggest she'll get any power at all. Like we have been battered into believing that the only way you can get power is by playing the games of Westerosi men and fitting our criteria to that. Nymeria said otherwise.

The subordinate thing does not come from her own fans; it comes from the fans of those other characters, as a way to "borrow" Arya's awsomeness :).

We should look at it as a compliment ;).

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

That is another good one! So we know that age is not going to be a factor to GRRMs plans for Arya and that if he's set it up in the previous books with hints he's going through with it without the 5 year gap undeterred. I assume he's exaggerating with 'conquer the world' but it does suggest the stage is set for Arya's re-entry in epic proportions.

Sometimes I think we Arya fans are too small scale in our ambitions. Predictions for Arya are always so depressing, she dies, she takes a second life as a wolf, she's a subordinate to Dany/Sansa/Jon, she'll forget who she is, she'll be an average hired assassin or Jeyne will take her place permanently. Its like we feel embarrassed to suggest she'll get any power at all. Like we have been battered into believing that the only way you can get power is by playing the games of Westerosi men and fitting our criteria to that. Nymeria said otherwise.

I'm personally putting Arya in Winterfell with Bran, and have them lead the ravens, wolves, and whatever clansmen and northmen manage to take refuge in its walls (which are heated by hot springs by the way) and weather the invasion of the Others from there, living in a state of perpetual siege, trying to survive until Jon and Dany make it to the Heart of Winter and kill whatever's up there.

My ambitions are indeed grand and I make no apologies.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Its rare to see Kit and Maisie together so our heads can't get around it. Maisie is 18 this April, fans will still be looking at her as a 13 year old! She's a grown woman now, none of the Stark kids are getting away with looking 3 years younger than they should, this season it will probably be 4 years younger, next 4-5 if the timeline doesn't speed up.

Last sighting of Kit and Maisie was 2 months ago

I think this one is cute too http://40.media.tumblr.com/d529db1380e86e0df794b4199898c032/tumblr_n9azi6T41c1sfcn7no1_500.png

In a sense, the restrictions can be a way to make them value more what they are denied.

But I am affraid that for Arya, being a woman in that society, it's not as simple as growing up and realizing that the way she values things has changed.

For a man, family and children do not mean that he must forsake every other dream he ever had; a husband and father can very well be "a king’s councillor and build castles and become the High Septon". For a woman, it seems that family and children can only come with the price of domestication and if she aspires for a place in the "man's world" she will most likely have to abandon dreams for a family - see Brienne.

(There can be exceptions, of course, but that's the general rule).

And, the implications of becoming a queen (consort), in combination to the wolf symbolism and the hierarchical order in a wolf pack --and being very clear which is the place of each wolf, right from the start-- is really where the prospect of the pairing makes me uncomfortable: a conclusion that can easily feel like, the system is not really that much of a problem as long as you can find the right man... :dunno:

Well maybe Arya will be queen in her own right with Jon her consort, paramour, Hand or whatever. ;)

Really though, and I know you were making a different point in your reply, I think this could be resolved if well written. Needle says it all, Jon knows Arya is fiercely independent and the sword was the perfect farewell gift.

Just look at the passage from AFFC that was discussed earlier; Arya has just landed in Braavos, Yorko drops her off at the HoBaW and she is scared. Her first instinct, after all of the trauma she has suffered, was to recall Gendry and the Hound, who she felt dependent on, admired their strength and envied how formidable they were.

Suddenly she was somewhere else... back in Harrenhal with Gendry, maybe, or with the Hound in the woods along the Trident. Salty is a stupid child, she told herself. I am a wolf, and will not be afraid. She patted Needle’s hilt for luck and plunged into the shadows, taking the steps two at a time so no one could ever say she’d been afraid.

But she remembered she was a wolf and Needle gives Arya all of the strength, courage and independence she needs to face her new trials on her own. That is quite the symbolic gift that Jon gave her, it highlights how well he knows her as well as how he thinks and feels about her.

Here is an interesting contrast from the Mercy chapter including in light of the outline (just a small thing really)

Bobono as a stand in for Tyrion

“We were meant to be together, Mercy,” Bobono insisted. “Look, we’re just the same height.”

“Only when I’m on my knees..."

Arya does not kneel and Jon knows that, it's no wonder Jon is attracted to wildling women.

Arya hitting puberty seemed to be important originally but it got messed up.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1441

But that doesn't mean she's not still going to be doing things a prepubescent child normally has no business doing. Especially with the child soldier inspiration she will mature and be exposed to some things far too early. But that I think that might give more credence to a sexual relationship rather than a romantic one.

Good find ARYa_Nym! I agree that as readers we need to adjust how we view Arya in terms of her age, as the Mercy chapter shows. I believe Martin has now committed to portraying her as older and more mature from here on out, which I'm sure is narratively necessary to properly finish the story the way he wants.

Do you think there would be no drama with Jon Snow asking Who I am if not Ned Stark's bastard, and who is Arya if not my little sister? He will need redefine how he sees himself and how he sees his most important relationship with remaining Stark. Not to mention Jon remembers Arya only as a little girl he will need come with terms with what person she is now.

Now matter what way it goes this will be interesting because Jon is going to be in for quite the shock, lol.

That is another good one! So we know that age is not going to be a factor to GRRMs plans for Arya and that if he's set it up in the previous books with hints he's going through with it without the 5 year gap undeterred. I assume he's exaggerating with 'conquer the world' but it does suggest the stage is set for Arya's re-entry in epic proportions.

Sometimes I think we Arya fans are too small scale in our ambitions. Predictions for Arya are always so depressing, she dies, she takes a second life as a wolf, she's a subordinate to Dany/Sansa/Jon, she'll forget who she is, she'll be an average hired assassin or Jeyne will take her place permanently. Its like we feel embarrassed to suggest she'll get any power at all. Like we have been battered into believing that the only way you can get power is by playing the games of Westerosi men and fitting our criteria to that. Nymeria said otherwise.

The subordinate thing does not come from her own fans; it comes from the fans of those other characters, as a way to "borrow" Arya's awsomeness :).

We should look at it as a compliment ;).

I agree with both of you yet again. :)

It's funny I noticed when I first came to this board (because of Martin's recommendation) there was hardly any discussion of Arya. There were even a few instances where there was finally an Arya discussion thread and the mods locked them, in addition I recall (at least once) the reason given for the lock was there were already so many Arya threads - however in fairness maybe the threads never received many replies, I can't say as I was a new member :dunno:

I did notice though the subordinate issue for Arya so I decided to infiltrate the system. :devil: While my ideas were likely already thought of before I still tried to look for ways to champion bringing Arya to the forefront. If Arya was placed as a Varys to Sansa's queen then I would point out that Arya more closely parallels Bloodraven or the Viper. (sorry ARYa_Nym I know you hate the Sansa/Doran Arya/Viper comparison because even though Oberyn is awsomesauce it still implies Arya as a subordinate to the ever amazing Sansa) Or I put Arya forth as the younger queen since at best it seemed the board would consider her for was the valonqar, which if I may boast I did have a pretty convincing argument given how inarticulate I can be, lol. Anyway point being there is tons we could theorize on, minor and major, just like the other stans.

Btw no offence to Sansa, I am a Sansa fan too. It's just at that time everything under the sun was attributed to her and in particular things that belong to Arya specifically. Sansa already had several threads were she marries everyone in ASoIaF so I didn't see the need to give her Gendry as well, but what really got to me was the giving Sansa Nymeria threads..... (and I hate the Nissa Nissa ones almost as much.)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I think this one is cute too http://40.media.tumblr.com/d529db1380e86e0df794b4199898c032/tumblr_n9azi6T41c1sfcn7no1_500.png

Well maybe Arya will be queen in her own right with Jon her consort, paramour, Hand or whatever. ;)

Really though, and I know you were making a different point in your reply, I think this could be resolved if well written. Needle says it all, Jon knows Arya is fiercely independent and the sword was the perfect farewell gift.

Just look at the passage from AFFC that was discussed earlier; Arya has just landed in Braavos, Yorko drops her off at the HoBaW and she is scared. Her first instinct, after all of the trauma she has suffered, was to recall Gendry and the Hound, who she felt dependent on, admired their strength and envied how formidable they were.

Suddenly she was somewhere else... back in Harrenhal with Gendry, maybe, or with the Hound in the woods along the Trident. Salty is a stupid child, she told herself. I am a wolf, and will not be afraid. She patted Needle’s hilt for luck and plunged into the shadows, taking the steps two at a time so no one could ever say she’d been afraid.

But she remembered she was a wolf and Needle gives Arya all of the strength, courage and independence she needs to face her new trials on her own. That is quite the symbolic gift that Jon gave her, it highlights how well he knows her as well as how he thinks and feels about her.

Here is an interesting contrast from the Mercy chapter including in light of the outline (just a small thing really)

Bobono as a stand in for Tyrion

“We were meant to be together, Mercy,” Bobono insisted. “Look, we’re just the same height.”

“Only when I’m on my knees..."

Arya does not kneel and Jon knows that, it's no wonder Jon is attracted to wildling women.

Good find ARYa_Nym! I agree that as readers we need to adjust how we view Arya in terms of her age, as the Mercy chapter shows. I believe Martin has now committed to portraying her as older and more mature from here on out, which I'm sure is narratively necessary to properly finish the story the way he wants.

Now matter what way it goes this will be interesting because Jon is going to be in for quite the shock, lol.

I agree with both of you yet again. :)

It's funny I noticed when I first came to this board (because of Martin's recommendation) there was hardly any discussion of Arya. There were even a few instances where there was finally an Arya discussion thread and the mods locked them, in addition I recall (at least once) the reason given for the lock was there were already so many Arya threads - however in fairness maybe the threads never received many replies, I can't say as I was a new member :dunno:

I did notice though the subordinate issue for Arya so I decided to infiltrate the system. :devil: While my ideas were likely already thought of before I still tried to look for ways to champion bringing Arya to the forefront. If Arya was placed as a Varys to Sansa's queen then I would point out that Arya more closely parallels Bloodraven or the Viper. (sorry ARYa_Nym I know you hate the Sansa/Doran Arya/Viper comparison because even though Oberyn is awsomesauce it still implies Arya as a subordinate to the ever amazing Sansa) Or I put Arya forth as the younger queen since at best it seemed the board would consider her for was the valonqar, which if I may boast I did have a pretty convincing argument given how inarticulate I can be, lol. Anyway point being there is tons we could theorize on, minor and major, just like the other stans.

Btw no offence to Sansa, I am a Sansa fan too. It's just at that time everything under the sun was attributed to her and in particular things that belong to Arya specifically. Sansa already had several threads were she marries everyone in ASoIaF so I didn't see the need to give her Gendry as well, but what really got to me was the giving Sansa Nymeria threads..... (and I hate the Nissa Nissa ones almost as much.)

That is such a sweet pic. I dont think people realise the make up artists on thrones are great at making her look younger. Look at what they do with Gwendoline! A stunning woman they make 'ugly'. But like I said, Sansa got her period 2 seasons ago and is now 'alluring' Littlefinger. Arya can't even grow her hair out and no I dont think The Hound or Hot Pie were her hairdressers on the road. Having the same costume all the time didn't help, its like she was in a time warp, she just didn't grow for 4 years!

I love that quote from Mercy! I wonder if that was GRRM having a bit of a giggle with himself, like when he writes characters thinking about how lost they are or they never get where they meant to go!

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Well maybe Arya will be queen in her own right with Jon her consort, paramour, Hand or whatever. ;)

Really though, and I know you were making a different point in your reply, I think this could be resolved if well written. Needle says it all, Jon knows Arya is fiercely independent and the sword was the perfect farewell gift.

Just look at the passage from AFFC that was discussed earlier; Arya has just landed in Braavos, Yorko drops her off at the HoBaW and she is scared. Her first instinct, after all of the trauma she has suffered, was to recall Gendry and the Hound, who she felt dependent on, admired their strength and envied how formidable they were.

Suddenly she was somewhere else... back in Harrenhal with Gendry, maybe, or with the Hound in the woods along the Trident. Salty is a stupid child, she told herself. I am a wolf, and will not be afraid. She patted Needle’s hilt for luck and plunged into the shadows, taking the steps two at a time so no one could ever say she’d been afraid.

But she remembered she was a wolf and Needle gives Arya all of the strength, courage and independence she needs to face her new trials on her own. That is quite the symbolic gift that Jon gave her, it highlights how well he knows her as well as how he thinks and feels about her.

You see, my (irrational, perhaps...) "fear" with this pairing is that Arya's character was designed to be "the girl". Awesome, unconventional, "badass", but still, "the girl". That whatever else she does, her most important contribution to the story could end up to be the heroe's "prize". I don't know if it reads as paranoid or something, but I can't express it any better.

But I agree that the Needle is a very strong symbol of empowerment:

In both Perrault and Grimm versions, the LRRH is presented as a little bit spoiled child by the doting of her mother and grandmother; her distinguishing red cap is presented as a token of indulgent attitude towards her. Accordingly, Lyanna (speculatively) and Arya (very explicitly) receive presents that indulge their inner wolf and become their personal literary totems:

• For Lyanna, it is the crown of blue winter roses. Taking into account the KotLT story, it seems more likely that the crown was given to her as a reward for her bravery and honour, thus also indirectly rewarding and encouraging her unconventional rebellious nature. The crown becomes her symbol and follows her through in most Ned’s memories of her.

It goes without saying that Arya’s is the Needle: nothing indirect here, this gift promptly aims to preserve, encourage and empower her wolfish wild nature.

As a potentially intriguing concurrence, in various versions of the older story of the Grandmother, the LRRH chooses the path of needles. In this retelling of the LRRH, the girl saves herself on her own by using her wits and improvising skills. A very interesting article on the subject is Terri Windling’s “The Path of Needles and Pins”.

(That's from a thread exploring Little Red Riding Hood themes in ASOIAF - I found the linked article potentially very interesting in regards to the name of the sword...)

I did notice though the subordinate issue for Arya so I decided to infiltrate the system. :devil: While my ideas were likely already thought of before I still tried to look for ways to champion bringing Arya to the forefront. If Arya was placed as a Varys to Sansa's queen then I would point out that Arya more closely parallels Bloodraven or the Viper. (sorry ARYa_Nym I know you hate the Sansa/Doran Arya/Viper comparison because even though Oberyn is awsomesauce it still implies Arya as a subordinate to the ever amazing Sansa) Or I put Arya forth as the younger queen since at best it seemed the board would consider her for was the valonqar, which if I may boast I did have a pretty convincing argument given how inarticulate I can be, lol. Anyway point being there is tons we could theorize on, minor and major, just like the other stans.

Btw no offence to Sansa, I am a Sansa fan too. It's just at that time everything under the sun was attributed to her and in particular things that belong to Arya specifically. Sansa already had several threads were she marries everyone in ASoIaF so I didn't see the need to give her Gendry as well, but what really got to me was the giving Sansa Nymeria threads..... (and I hate the Nissa Nissa ones almost as much.)

I agree that there is not enough Arya discussion. I guess it is because her character and arc is perceived as the classic tomboy / action girl by large part of the fandom, her own fans included. Such a view doesn't produce too much of a discussion...

Anyway, personally I am not really into trying to change the general view of the fandom about my favourite characters - you will rarely see me defending Catelyn in the recurring Cat-bashing threads - I just don't enjoy such discussions. So I don't mind a lot about Arya's role in the wish list for other characters but yes, this thing with Nymeria gets me a lot. As much as I love Sansa, I find this notion totally abhorrent. It's mostly because I hate the idea of direwolves as property - they have a personality of their own, ffs...

(Same with Drogon, I don't like Dany much, but I hate the idea that she'll die only for somone else to get her dragon.)

[nara]

Well, according to Cersei: "'Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same." So "fucked up" may be his modus operandi. Of course, Cersei is a dubious source of wisdom, but taking into consideration the cases of romantic love which George presented to us so far, I tend to think he may agree with her to a certain extent. It is true that their love didn't usually kill the lovers, but it was dangerous to those around them.

Actually, I think Cersei is sometimes a great source of wisdom. Despite her craziness and stupidity, she has these flashes of brilliance. The "Love is a poison" and "when you play the game of thrones" quotes are very true (at least in Westeros).

[Ice Turtle]

PART 2: ACoK & ASoS

ACOK

“He prob’ly stole it.”

“I did not!” she shouted. Jon Snow had given her Needle. Maybe she had to let them call her Lumpyhead, but she wasn’t going to let them call Jon a thief.

“Steal? I never . . .”

“You did,” said Tormund. “You slew the two she was with and carried her off, what do you call it?”ASoS

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. “Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”

“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? ASoS

Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me. ADwD

The first note is ACoK, the others are from later books.It is strange that Arya even thinks Jon is called a thief in the first quote because “he” in the first sentence doesn’t refer to Jon but to Arya posing as Arry. Later Jon will be accused of stealing thrice more. In all cases he is accused of stealing women (custom which among wildlings count for courting) and one is even supposed to be Arya. Curiously Arya is brought up just as abruptly in talk Jon has with Ygritte about stealing women. He even wonders is she is still his little sister and if she ever was.

When at last she slept, she dreamed of home. The kingsroad wound its way past Winterfell on its way to the Wall, and Yoren had promised he’d leave her there with no one any wiser about who she’d been. She yearned to see her mother again, and Robb and Bran and Rickon . . . but it was Jon Snow she thought of most. She wished somehow they could come to the Wall before Winterfell, so Jon might muss up her hair and call her “little sister.” She’d tell him, “I missed you,” and he’d say it too at the very same moment, the way they always used to say things together. She would have liked that. She would have liked that better than anything.

Even while Robb and Cat are still alive it is Jon Snow whom Arya wants to reach the most.

As he rode, Jon peeled off his glove to air his burned fingers. Ugly things. He remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya’s hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again. He began to flex his hand, opening and closing the fingers. If he let his sword hand stiffen and grow clumsy, it well might be the end of him, he knew. A man needed his sword beyond the Wall.

I wonder if this refers to Jon's last ADwD chapter, where his hand seems stiff. Arya is somehow present in both cases, he is reminded of her by the dead man Wun wun is holding and his last thought are the words he told her: “Stick them with the pointy end.” Another connection to another part of books is phrase “it made him a little sad”, in ADwD it makes Arya sad that Jon would not recognize Blind Beth. Both times those thoughts (indirect in Jon's case) are related to physical change of their appearance. Playing devil’s advocate, Jaime has somehow similar thoughts when he thinks of how Cersei won't like it, after he decides to change his appearance at the beginning of AsoS.

“She says there’s this great pack, hundreds of them, mankillers. The one that leads them is a she-wolf, a bitch from the seventh hell.”

Nymeria as the leader of a wolfpack. This rumor will be confirmed at the beginning of ASoS in Arya's wolf dream.

Jon could see fear and fire in her eyes. Blood ran down her white throat from where the point of his dirk had pricked her. One thrust and it’s done, he told himself. He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike.

Ygritte watched and said nothing. She was older than he’d thought at first, Jon realized; maybe as old as twenty, but short for her age, bandy-legged, with a round face, small hands, and a pug nose. Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya.

Both quotes from the chapter where Jon and Ygritte meet for the first time. She reminds him of Arya from the very first moment and he compares the two even when he thinks about Ygritte's body.

Alone, she slid through the shadow of the Tower of Ghosts. She walked fast, to keep ahead of her fear, and it felt as though Syrio Forel walked beside her, and Yoren, and Jaqen H’ghar, and Jon Snow.

Jon Snow being mentioned among people Arya counts for her protectors and mentors. Jon when they parted was around the same age Gendry is when they meet but I never had a feeling that Arya counted Gendry for her protector or teacher. Gendry is more her “second in command”, Davos to her Stannis.

Qhorin came and stood over him as the first flame rose up flickering from the shavings of bark and dead dry pine needles. “As shy as a maid on her wedding night,” the big ranger said in a soft voice, “and near as fair. Sometimes a man forgets how pretty a fire can be.” He was not a man you’d expect to speak of maids and wedding nights. So far as Jon knew, Qhorin had spent his

whole life in the Watch. Did he ever love a maid or have a wedding? He could not ask. Instead he fanned the fire. When the blaze was all acrackle, he peeled off his stiff gloves to warm his hands, and sighed, wondering if ever a kiss had felt as good. The warmth spread through his fingers like melting butter.

And come the morning, when the night wolf left her and she opened her eyes, she saw a tallow candle burning where no candle had been the night before, its uncertain flame swaying back and forth like a whore at the Happy Port. She had never seen anything so beautiful. ADwD

I find it amusing that when looking at fire Qhorin a hardened ranger is describing a shy maid and Arya a young girl herself is most probably referring to sex with woman on top. Jon Snow finds the middle ground, he thinks of kisses.

ASoS

“NO!” Arya and Gendry both said, at the exact same instant. Hot Pie quailed a little. Arya gave Gendry a sideways look. He said it with me, like Jon used to do, back in Winterfell. She missed Jon Snow the most of all her brothers.

“Is it wildfire?” Arya asked Gendry.

“No. This is different. This is . . .”

“. . . magic?” she finished as the Hound edged back.

Arya have some saying things together and finishing sentences with Gendry too.

“The Hand’s daughter.” Harwin went to one knee before her. “Arya Stark, of Winterfell.”

Possible foreshadowing here. Harwin kneels but he does not use title 'lady'.

The wildlings seemed to think Ygritte a great beauty because of her hair; red hair was rare among the free folk, and those who had it were said to be kissed by fire, which was supposed to be lucky. Lucky it might be, and red it certainly was, but Ygritte’s hair was such a tangle that Jon was tempted to ask her if she only brushed it at the changing of the seasons.

Other girl with messy hair is Arya. And while they lived together Jon had a hand in it as he used to muss it.

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a “spearwife” when they’d captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn’t wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but “spearwife” fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore.

Another passage where Jon compares Ygritte to Arya. Yeah, again while thinking of her body.

My featherbed is deep and soft,

and there I’ll lay you down,

I’ll dress you all in yellow silk,

and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love,

and I shall be your lord.

I’ll always keep you warm and safe,

and guard you with my sword.

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him,

no featherbed for me.

I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves,

and bind my hair with grass,

But you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

“Good,” King Stannis said, “for the surest way to seal a new alliance is with a marriage. I mean to wed my Lord of Winterfell to this wildling princess.”

Perhaps Jon had ridden with the free folk too long; he could not help but laugh. “Your Grace,” he said, “captive or no, if you think you can just give Val to me, I fear you have a deal to learn about wildling women. ADwD

Most people seems to agree that the song is about Gendry and Arya. It is IMO song about two people from different worlds, but what is more wanting different things of life. Arya does not want to be a lady to be protected and pampered. And if there is a man who can understand that it is Jon.

She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”

“Longspear’s not your brother.”

Why GGRM have Jon being asked this question? And what is more Jon doesn't even answer hell no, he argues Longspear isn't Ygritte's brother. Arya is not his sister, even if they “grew up in the same village.”

“She’s my sister.” Gendry put a heavy hand on the old man’s shoulder, and squeezed. “Leave her be.”

The man turned, spoiling for a quarrel, but when he saw Gendry’s size he thought better of it. “Your sister, is she? What kind of brother are you? I’d never bring no sister of mine to the Peach, that I wouldn’t.” He got up from the bench and moved off muttering, in search of a new friend.

“Why did you say that?” Arya hopped to her feet. “You’re not my brother.”

“That’s right,” he said angrily. “I’m too bloody lowborn to be kin to m’lady high.”

Arya was taken aback by the fury in his voice. “That’s not the way I meant it.”

To have things more tangled in Peach Gendry pretends to be Arya's brother.

“My lady?” Ned said at last. “You have a baseborn brother . . . Jon Snow?”

“He’s with the Night’s Watch on the Wall.” Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn’t care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair . . . “Jon looks like me, even though he’s bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister.’” Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad.

Ygritte was a killer with tangled hair, Jon reflects upon the both facts, but he still loved her till the end. Arya never ever doubts Jon's love for her, yeah GRRM can make an ugly things with faiths like that, but still.

Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter and tell him what Ned Dayne had said.

Arya is one of three characters (together with Robert and Davos) who are given a fake story of Jon's origin. She gets the one with most truth in it. I think that it was for no greater reason that she was at the right place in the right time, but her acquaintance with Ned Dayne is interesting nonetheless. There is just something about the Daynes.

Another thing I would like to address here is Jon's nickname for Arya - “little sister”. When a person who is in fact Targaryen calls a girl who in fact is not his sister a sister and when it is highlighted and repeated it is strong foreshadowing of itself. The fact is Targaryens marry their sisters.

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body . . . and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted.

How could he explain Ygritte to them? She’s warm and smart and funny and she can kiss a man or slit his throat. “She’s with Styr, but she’s not . . . she’s young, only a girl, in truth, wild, but she . . .” She killed an old man for building a fire. His tongue felt thick and clumsy. The milk of the poppy was clouding his wits. “I broke my vows with her. I never meant to, but . . .” It was wrong. Wrong to love her, wrong to leave her . . .

It is often said that Jon would never fall in love with a killer, it is simply a feeble reading of the text especially if you consider that he later finds it attractive when Val tries to kill one of guards.

“At least you look at my face. I’ll give you that, you little she-wolf. How do you like it?”

Sansa, Cat and especially Lyanna in KotLT story are all called she-wolves, but only with Arya it is clearly not only because of Stark sigil. The Hound who gives her the nickname interact with Sansa first, yet Sansa is the 'little bird'.

She was a good enough horse, but Arya could not love a coward.

She liked Little Narbo, even if he was a thief. AFfC

Returning to the first group of quotes in this part compares Arya's feelings about cravens and thieves. Though I doubt she would fully subscribe to wildling customs, her preferences are a little wildling like.

“I know where we could go,” Arya said. She still had one brother left. Jon will want me, even if no one else does. He’ll call me “little sister” and muss my hair. It was a long way, though, and she didn’t think she could get there by herself. She hadn’t even been able to reach Riverrun. “We could go to the Wall.”

When in AFfC Brienne is wondering where Sansa wold go she dismisses Wall quickly, as for Arya Sandor Clegane is probably the only living person who knows her preferred destination.

[Meemaw]

:bowdown:

[The Man from Nowhere]

Great work. I wonder if the significance of any 'special relationship' has faded in the more recent books. Possibly with GRRM maybe changing his mind about this after the original plot was released recently. It just seems most of these passages are in the early books fading somewhat in the more recent ones. I don't know why but I'd actually like this relationship to happen. It would be typical GRRM, although there's not enough ground work laid down for it to happen in the show.

[Ice Turtle]

Great work. I wonder if the significance of any 'special relationship' has faded in the more recent books. Possibly with GRRM maybe changing his mind about this after the original plot was released recently. It just seems most of these passages are in the early books fading somewhat in the more recent ones. I don't know why but I'd actually like this relationship to happen. It would be typical GRRM, although there's not enough ground work laid down for it to happen in the show.

I does not seem to be fading ACoK and ASoS at all. That it is a special, plot important and close relationship is definitively still there even in AFfC and ADwD, (I plan to post the quotes later.) Arya is the last thing Jon thinks about before he decides to ride south instead of Hardhome and a Jon figures strongly in Arya's thoughts when she decides not to get rid of Needle. There is less foreshadowing for not sibling nature of their future relationship, but it seems to me that in AFfC and ADwD there is less foreshadowing and clues for everything.

[Dicer]

Holy hell, Jon does compare Ygritte's allegedly skinny body (under all those furs) to Arya a lot! And that's not very sibling like if the person one is sexually attracted to reminds one of their sister.

I does not seem to be fading ACoK and ASoS at all. That it is a special, plot important and close relationship is definitively still there even in AFfC and ADwD, (I plan to post the quotes later.) Arya is the last thing Jon thinks about before he decides to ride south instead of Hardhome and a Jon figures strongly in Arya's thoughts when she decides not to get rid of Needle. There is less foreshadowing for not sibling nature of their future relationship, but it seems to me that in AFfC and ADwD there is less foreshadowing and clues for everything.

I have to agree. The focus on their relationship is increasing considering Arya was a significant part of Jon's arc in ADwD and it is Arya that propels him to Winterfell leading to the showdown at the Shield hall.

I think we are still on track for an Arya/Jon relationship. I was thinking it was going to be Dany/Jon, now I think it's Arya/Jon.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Arya does have Moon imagery for the Moon Maid idea.

Eddard: You may be as different as the sun and the MOON, but the same blood flows through both your hearts.

Jon's just a bit of a weirdo, Ygritte really came off as a proxy Arya. I think the show tried to draw that parallel with the archery, that Arya never does in the books. Without having Jon say over and over that she reminds him of his sister. I noticed the skinny thing, never noticed the messy hair comparison!

[Mithras]

Alys Karstark also came as an Arya proxy.

From ADwD:

“He’s to marry Arya Stark. My little sister.” Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair.

She looked enough like Arya to give him pause, but only for a moment. A tall, skinny, coltish girl, all legs and elbows, her brown hair was woven in a thick braid and bound about with strips of leather. She had a long face, a pointy chin, small ears.

She does look a bit like Arya, Jon thought. Starved and skinny, but her hair’s the same color, and her eyes.