Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[Maizel]

Great topic. I never realized any of this.

Makes Jon look a bit like a creep, though. xD

[Han Snow]

I think we are still on track for an Arya/Jon relationship. I was thinking it was going to be Dany/Jon, now I think it's Arya/Jon.

My thought pattern exactly.

I almost feel embarrassed now for not seeing the creepy "romantic" vibe with Jon/Arya throughout their chapters, while I was drawing connections left and right based on imagery alone for Jon and Dany. Though to be fair, GRRM only knows how it's going to play out in the end. But as I said before, there is maybe 1% chance for the show to go there with Jon/Arya, and I'm glad for it.

[Ice Turtle]

Alys Karstark also came as an Arya proxy.

From ADwD:

“He’s to marry Arya Stark. My little sister.” Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair.

She looked enough like Arya to give him pause, but only for a moment. A tall, skinny, coltish girl, all legs and elbows, her brown hair was woven in a thick braid and bound about with strips of leather. She had a long face, a pointy chin, small ears.

She does look a bit like Arya, Jon thought. Starved and skinny, but her hair’s the same color, and her eyes.

Yes he compares Alys to Arya, but that is somehow more understandable story wise because Alys was supposed to be Arya. It is actually surprising how many characters plays role of Arya's proxy one way or another.

Jeyne Poole is of course passed for fake Arya.

Alys is mistaken for Arya in Melisandre's prophecy.

Brienne wonders if Willow from the Crossroads Inn could be Arya.

For one brief moment Bran thinks Leaf is Arya.

[Han Snow]

Yes he compares Alys to Arya, but that is somehow more understandable story wise because Alys was supposed to be Arya. It is actually surprising how many characters plays role of Arya's proxy one way or another.

Jeyne Poole is of course passed for fake Arya.

Alys is mistaken for Arya in Melisandre's prophecy.

Brienne wonders if Willow from the Crossroads Inn could be Arya.

For one brief moment Bran thinks Leaf is Arya.

Characters are seeing Arya in people who are not her while Arya is pretending to be other people and trying to lose her TRUE identity as Arya Stark. Great writing by George.

And of course, the only thing stopping her from commiting to the task of losing her identity fully and completely is... Jon Snow.

p.s. Nice job on part 2. Waiting patently for the last one.

[bemused]

Honestly, after the latest chapter it seems like he said got a problem with her age deal with it. Yes, I'm going there even without the age gap. The difference with Jon is that it might compromise Jon being likable to readers and he goes through back flips to achieve that. Although I do believe that she is just a year or two younger than Lyanna when she first caught Rhaegar's eye.

Like others, I trust that if GRRM is going to stick to his original plan , he will be able to make it work. He wouldn't be able to rush it , though, and I can't see it happening before the last book, considering where the characters are and what's going on around them at the moment.

Because of other considerations in the overall story, I take Lyanna to have been at her upper possible age limit at Harrenhall. I think both the wisdom in Lyanna's assessment of Robert and that Robert sees her as attractive, argue in favour of this. With girls, the difference in appearance between an 11yr. old (as Arya is now) and a 14yr. old (as Lyanna probably was then) can be pretty staggering.

I have no problem with the Mercy chapter..

After hanging around the Happy Port and other brothels.. and stripping and preparing bodies at the HoB&W.. anatomy and sexual behaviour are far from foreign to Arya. But there's no attraction or physical response in the kiss she shares with Raff. It reminds me of her earlier willingness to eat bugs, or the KM's grave worm, if necessary.

.. and it will be interesting to see how that chapter may differ from what is eventually in the book.

Having said that, considering distances that must be travelled, campaigns to be waged etc., etc., 3 - 4yrs. or so can easily elapse between the opening of TWoW and the close of ADoS.

In the meantime, I don't think Val is a red herring, or mere filler. I think there's much more to her than meets the eye , as we developed in a thread I started in the Dance with Dragons section - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/66294-tormund-and-val-;-jons-intermediaries-to-the-old-gods/?hl=%20tormund%20%20jon#39;s ( There's a huge digression someone posted in the middle - delving into Slavic mythology - interesting, but not really to the point.)

While the presence of Val doesn't really stand in the way of an eventual Arya / Jon pairing (there is time for Jon to have other lovers -or even spouses- before his ultimate reunion with Arya) , other in-story obstacles remain to be worked around.

Ygritte's "Would you marry your sister?" could have originally been intended as ironic foreshadowing , but the ideas expressed in that conversation - the whole ethos behind stealing brides - would probably make a marriage between cousins equally repugnant to the free folk. Even marrying within your own village or tribal group is frowned upon, according to Ygritte.

Since Jon is (IMO) in the process of becoming their King ( though not yet in name) and since I think that is the one thing that would really facilitate wildling assimilation, Jon/Araya could be a serious impediment.

Also, as someone mentioned back upthread, if GRRM was sticking to it, I can't imagine why it wouldn't have been redacted in the outline. (I mean , he still won't confirm R+L=J.) His editor had said that this outline, or one like it, would be published ,someday (perhaps during the discussion with GRRM and Robin Hobb?).. and while I know mistakes can be made, I have a bit of a hard time accepting that one this big could get by any of them.

ETA: I think any of the hints so far could still portend either a "true love" or a strong "sibling" love, so GRRM still has leeway.

I also liked the comments made about Jon empowering Arya giving Needle, while she could "legitimize" him through marriage... except I have a feeling he won't need it ..There's perhaps, Robb's "will".. and throughout the series, there's a theme developing that old laws, rules and conventions need to be reassessed, disregarded or changed. ...There's the idea that leadership must be deserved ,coming to the fore through the wildlings (and the NW).. while what seems to be incontrovertible is that what is magically in the Stark bloodline is what is required to be a true King in the North. Jon has this in his own being.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The outline was photographed from the new offices of his UK publisher by a UK book retailer. It was posted to twitter without relevant consent and was taken down. We do not know who redacted it, why or when.

[Mithras]

George's letter talks nothing about a happy ending for Jon/Arya love. R+L was a tragedy. Even if Jon and Arya have an affair, that would not mean that it will be the endgame. Arya might die in the end.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

George's letter talks nothing about a happy ending for Jon/Arya love. R+L was a tragedy. Even if Jon and Arya have an affair, that would not mean that it will be the endgame. Arya might die in the end.

You are absolutely right but considering the letter states Arya and Jon survive and the riddle of his parentage exists to create a romantic obstacle that can be overcome, it suggests that it did end happily unless they were forced into marriages apart for political reasons.

[bemused]

The outline was photographed from the new offices of his UK publisher by a UK book retailer. It was posted to twitter without relevant consent and was taken down. We do not know who redacted it, why or when.

Yes, I know.. and I have said that I trust if he's sticking to it, he'll make it work. I still have doubts that the letter would have been put up (or left out) where visitors to the office could see it, if it was still pertinent to the developing story, so I have some reservations about accepting that the relationship will still come to pass.

Possible, but not a done deal, IMO.

[Han Snow]

Like others, I trust that if GRRM is going to stick to his original plan , he will be able to make it work. He wouldn't be able to rush it , though, and I can't see it happening before the last book, considering where the characters are and what's going on around them at the moment.

Because of other considerations in the overall story, I take Lyanna to have been at her upper possible age limit at Harrenhall. I think both the wisdom in Lyanna's assessment of Robert and that Robert sees her as attractive, argue in favour of this. With girls, the difference in appearance between an 11yr. old (as Arya is now) and a 14yr. old (as Lyanna probably was then) can be pretty staggering.

I have no problem with the Mercy chapter..

After hanging around the Happy Port and other brothels.. and stripping and preparing bodies at the HoB&W.. anatomy and sexual behaviour are far from foreign to Arya. But there's no attraction or physical response in the kiss she shares with Raff. It reminds me of her earlier willingness to eat bugs, or the KM's grave worm, if necessary.

.. and it will be interesting to see how that chapter may differ from what is eventually in the book.

Having said that, considering distances that must be travelled, campaigns to be waged etc., etc., 3 - 4yrs. or so can easily elapse between the opening of TWoW and the close of ADoS.

In the meantime, I don't think Val is a red herring, or mere filler. I think there's much more to her than meets the eye , as we developed in a thread I started in the Dance with Dragons section - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/66294-tormund-and-val-;-jons-intermediaries-to-the-old-gods/?hl=%20tormund%20%20jon#39;s ( There's a huge digression someone posted in the middle - delving into Slavic mythology - interesting, but not really to the point.)

While the presence of Val doesn't really stand in the way of an eventual Arya / Jon pairing (there is time for Jon to have other lovers -or even spouses- before his ultimate reunion with Arya) , other in-story obstacles remain to be worked around.

Ygritte's "Would you marry your sister?" could have originally been intended as ironic foreshadowing , but the ideas expressed in that conversation - the whole ethos behind stealing brides - would probably make a marriage between cousins equally repugnant to the free folk. Even marrying within your own village or tribal group is frowned upon, according to Ygritte.

Since Jon is (IMO) in the process of becoming their King ( though not yet in name) and since I think that is the one thing that would really facilitate wildling assimilation, Jon/Araya could be a serious impediment.

Also, as someone mentioned back upthread, if GRRM was sticking to it, I can't imagine why it wouldn't have been redacted in the outline. (I mean , he still won't confirm R+L=J.) His editor had said that this outline, or one like it, would be published ,someday (perhaps during the discussion with GRRM and Robin Hobb?).. and while I know mistakes can be made, I have a bit of a hard time accepting that one this big could get by any of them.

ETA: I think any of the hints so far could still portend either a "true love" or a strong "sibling" love, so GRRM still has leeway.

I also liked the comments made about Jon empowering Arya giving Needle, while she could "legitimize" him through marriage... except I have a feeling he won't need it ..There's perhaps, Robb's "will".. and throughout the series, there's a theme developing that old laws, rules and conventions need to be reassessed, disregarded or changed. ...There's the idea that leadership must be deserved ,coming to the fore through the wildlings (and the NW).. while what seems to be incontrovertible is that what is magically in the Stark bloodline is what is required to be a true King in the North. Jon has this in his own being.

Nicely said. Agree with everything.

[lojzelote]

My thought pattern exactly.

I almost feel embarrassed now for not seeing the creepy "romantic" vibe with Jon/Arya throughout their chapters, while I was drawing connections left and right based on imagery alone for Jon and Dany. Though to be fair, GRRM only knows how it's going to play out in the end. But as I said before, there is maybe 1% chance for the show to go there with Jon/Arya, and I'm glad for it.

I noticed the thing with Ygritte too, but never paid it much mind because this is the same series where Ned described Robert to be "muscled as a maiden's fantasy", and undoubtedly the author didn't mean for Ned to have repressed sexual or romantic feelings for his BFF. The published original plan puts it into a new light, but it's possible it's just remnants George used as a way to show that Jon is deep inside a freaky Targ or perhaps he might be trolling us. Who the hell knows with him, heh.

The show would go there if it was the endgame, I don't believe they would change the ultimate fate of the six main characters after they've claimed how much they love GRRM's ending; change the journey, yes, change the ending, no. But otherwise it would be cut, IMHO. OTOH personally it would be entertaining for me to watch people being uncomfortable over a tiny, but 18+ years old Maisie Williams being in a sexual relationship because it would only emphasize how much this idea of a 13 years old Arya being old enough is fucked up.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I'm surprised so many people think the Northerners won't care that Jon is not 'The Ned's son. They seem pretty devoted to The Ned and his kids. 2-3 of Ned's kids will show up again. Jon is a Stark, he's not from the right Stark however. Robb's will is a wildcard but even then, that leaves open claims from the true born Starks who will have their rights usurped by their cousin. Rickon may not care, Rickon's hypothetical kids may be very bitter in the long run, maybe even Sansa's. I don't think its as simple as people make it, Stark Blood=King in the North.

[Ice Turtle]

In the meantime, I don't think Val is a red herring, or mere filler. I think there's much more to her than meets the eye , as we developed in a thread I started in the Dance with Dragons section - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/66294-tormund-and-val-;-jons-intermediaries-to-the-old-gods/?hl=%20tormund%20%20jon#39;s ( There's a huge digression someone posted in the middle - delving into Slavic mythology - interesting, but not really to the point.)

Ygritte's "Would you marry your sister?" could have originally been intended as ironic foreshadowing , but the ideas expressed in that conversation - the whole ethos behind stealing brides - would probably make a marriage between cousins equally repugnant to the free folk. Even marrying within your own village or tribal group is frowned upon, according to Ygritte.

Also, as someone mentioned back upthread, if GRRM was sticking to it, I can't imagine why it wouldn't have been redacted in the outline. (I mean , he still won't confirm R+L=J.) His editor had said that this outline, or one like it, would be published ,someday (perhaps during the discussion with GRRM and Robin Hobb?).. and while I know mistakes can be made, I have a bit of a hard time accepting that one this big could get by any of them.

ETA: I think any of the hints so far could still portend either a "true love" or a strong "sibling" love, so GRRM still has leeway.

I also liked the comments made about Jon empowering Arya giving Needle, while she could "legitimize" him through marriage... except I have a feeling he won't need it ..There's perhaps, Robb's "will".. and throughout the series, there's a theme developing that old laws, rules and conventions need to be reassessed, disregarded or changed. ...There's the idea that leadership must be deserved ,coming to the fore through the wildlings (and the NW).. while what seems to be incontrovertible is that what is magically in the Stark bloodline is what is required to be a true King in the North. Jon has this in his own being.

I see Val as a possible even probable relationship. Jon is likely to became rather disillusioned with the Watch for a while, he will probably rebel against many principles he respected so far like celibacy, but I doubt she is his endgame.

If Jon is strong warrior and leader wildlings will follow him, his sexual life is not going to be topic n.1 for them, it is not as if his children were entitled to rule after him.

If you read the question why it wasn't redacted out than you probably should also read the answer, it is page 7. It sounds little conspiracy theory like, but it is possible and we will most likely never know for sure. But seriously, Jon not being Ned's son is clear from the letter too. Does it mean L+R=J is out? I doubt it.

Is there absolutely no way for Jon/Arya remain strictly sibling relationship? Far from it. But there is enough clues to consider romance between them as very serious possibility.

Jon personally empowered Arya with Needle, not simply because she was his kin, but because she is very special to him. Robb repaying for that does not sound fulfilling, he never knew about Needle, he was the one who agreed to engage Arya to Elmar Frey. He was left out of this. Jon does have Stark blood, but he does not truly belong (as dead Starks in his dreams seem to think) and as son of Lyanna he can never come before Ned's children.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

George's letter talks nothing about a happy ending for Jon/Arya love. R+L was a tragedy. Even if Jon and Arya have an affair, that would not mean that it will be the endgame. Arya might die in the end.

You had me until "Might die in the end" Mithras.

[Han Snow]

The show would go there if it was the endgame, I don't believe they would change the ultimate fate of the six main characters after they've claimed how much they love GRRM's ending; change the journey, yes, change the ending, no. But otherwise it would be cut, IMHO. OTOH personally it would be entertaining for me to watch people being uncomfortable over a tiny, but 18+ years old Maisie Williams being in a sexual relationship because it would only emphasize how much this idea of a 13 years old Arya being old enough is fucked up.

Oh, I believe they love it, but I believe even more that it will be as different from the books as rain is from snow. Different feeling, different look, but fundamentally the same. Romances are that cosmetic difference. Who is King or Queen in the end, how the Others are defeated, Who lives Who dies from the big 6 POVs. These things will probably be roughly the same. But romaces are not it for me. They can change. Even as big ones like Jon and Arya would be. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to see Kit and Emilia together. :P

[Han Snow]

You had me until "Might die in the end" Mithras.

So you are that sure Arya WILL die?

Maybe they both die. I admit that I entertained that thought the most after accepting that they might end up together. Death in each others arms after kicking evil's ass, even if that evil was inside their tortured hearts...

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Oh, I believe they love it, but I believe even more that it will be as different from the books as rain is from snow. Different feeling, different look, but fundamentally the same. Romances are that cosmetic difference. Who is King or Queen in the end, how the Others are defeated, Who lives Who dies from the big 6 POVs. These things will probably be roughly the same. But romaces are not it for me. They can change. Even as big ones like Jon and Arya would be. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to see Kit and Emilia together. :P

I'm almost ready to actively root for a Jon/Dany hook-up even though it's aunt/nephew and I don't how the logistics would work, just because, why the fuck not?

We got probably unnecessasary Asha, Cercei and Sam sex scenes, why not the power-hungry blond queen and dark-haired Moody McBroody pants?

There's been so much "no way that's too obvious!" aura around it that it's gonna be hilarious to watch the fandom lose it's shit over it, stans and anti-stans alike lol.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

So you are that sure Arya WILL die?

Maybe they both die. I admit that I entertained that thought the most after accepting that they might end up together. Death in each others arms after kicking evil's ass, even if that evil was inside their tortured hearts...

Nah, I'm sure she'll live, along with Bran, Sansa, and Rickon. I don't foresee any Stark deaths except Jon.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I'm almost ready to actively root for a Jon/Dany hook-up even though it's aunt/nephew and I don't how the logistics would work, just because, why the fuck not?

We got probably unnecessasary Asha, Cercei and Sam sex scenes, why not the power-hungry blond queen and dark-haired Moody McBroody pants?

There's been so much "no way that's too obvious!" aura around it that it's gonna be hilarious to watch the fandom lose it's shit over it, stans and anti-stans alike lol.

Its too obvious yes, its too cliche. Dany [titles,titles titles], gets the hero and to be queen of westeros on top. She probably gets an abundance of Lemon cakes too, No, I think that Dany has started her spiral downwards. Everything she has wanted she has seemed to get even if she couldn't rule Mereen effectively. Its time she fails HARD when it matters.

Plus, Daario's seconds. The man is probably riddled!

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Its too obvious yes, its too cliche. Dany [titles,titles titles], gets the hero and to be queen of westeros on top. She probably gets an abundance of Lemon cakes too, No, I think that Dany has started her spiral downwards. Everything she has wanted she has seemed to get even if she couldn't rule Mereen effectively. Its time she fails HARD when it matters.

Plus, Daario's seconds. The man is probably riddled!

I'm not betting on Queen of Westeros (she also dies, or else I'm going to grill by copy of ADWD and eat it), but I couldn't disagree more about the downward spiral. I see the problems of Dany's narrative as being Doyalist, not primarily flaws in her character. But that's not my expertise or my area of interest, really.