Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[sweetsunray]

Martin might still go forward with Jon and Arya. However, I'm not sure now after he abandoned the 5 yr gap. Another thought is Jon and Arya (with another face?) might be an option that could be more acceptable and more ironic?

As in, in Jon's thoughts, he will have this constant feeling that this girl continues to remind him of Arya. Martin has conditioned us with Jon's voicing his thoughts to us, the readers, with Ygritte and Alys reminding him of Arya, etc.

So a dramatic irony of sort could be that when Jon do falls for this girl, they both have their little intimate nights and stuff, then comes a big test. Maybe someone will name Jon for her to kill (if she's still a Faceless Men at this time). The reason I brought this up, the whole "only death pays for life." That the biggest tragedy with Jon and Arya is that, Arya could not bring herself to kill Jon. I think she will kill herself that Jon may live, and then Jon sees Needle at this girl's hip and the thought of horror as Jon takes the face off of this girl and he sees Arya.

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?

FM aren't assigned to kill someone they know. FM 101.

[IceFire125]

FM aren't assigned to kill someone they know. FM 101.

I assumed it's the name, not the person. Jon Snow won't exist by this time, what if he is a different name, after accepting his royal heritage, his Targaryen name?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Who is ready to give up practically all of their wealth to order the hit, who is to say that Jon will screech that he's a Targ from every rooftop of Westeros after he wakes up with that knowledge.

[Joan Jett]

Who is ready to give up practically all of their wealth to order the hit, who is to say that Jon will screech that he's a Targ from every rooftop of Westeros after he wakes up with that knowledge.

Yeah it's still kind of a mystery to me how everyone in the seven kingdoms would be able to find out about Jon's parentage. Maybe Howland Reed will call a realm meeting or something.

[sweetsunray]

I assumed it's the name, not the person. Jon Snow won't exist by this time, what if he is a different name, after accepting his royal heritage, his Targaryen name?

Knowing someone's name doesn't mean you 'know' them. If that was actually the rule, no FM could kill anybody in Braavos. All they need to do in Braavos is repeatedly tell you their name, and then nobody'd get killed anymore by the FM. Sure, they do tell someone of the House of Black and White their name repeatedly, but I'm sure that's a pretty useless trick. 'Knowing' means having a personal connection to that person.

Otherwise you'd get situations where the KM says a name for a hit. You didn't know the name before, but now you do know the name. And if that person tells you their name on top of it, well "Sorry, can't do a hit on that one, cause I know there name."

FM are just trying to avoid emotional messy business that usually follows if you're ordered to kill a family member, a friend, a personal enemy.

[IceFire125]

Knowing someone's name doesn't mean you 'know' them. If that was actually the rule, no FM could kill anybody in Braavos. All they need to do in Braavos is repeatedly tell you their name, and then nobody'd get killed anymore by the FM. Sure, they do tell someone of the House of Black and White their name repeatedly, but I'm sure that's a pretty useless trick. 'Knowing' means having a personal connection to that person.

Otherwise you'd get situations where the KM says a name for a hit. You didn't know the name before, but now you do know the name. And if that person tells you their name on top of it, well "Sorry, can't do a hit on that one, cause I know there name."

FM are just trying to avoid emotional messy business that usually follows if you're ordered to kill a family member, a friend, a personal enemy.

I know what you mean, but I'm still holding on some of mixture between the two.

I feel the Faceless Men will make a special exception for Jon to Arya's surprise and horror. I could see this happening.

Arya may not know 'this' man (who turned out to be Jon), who she is being sent to assassinate. Martin will reverse the situation, just like how Jon didn't know who Ygritte was when his knife was at her throat, Arya (with her FM face), would be shock to find out that 'this' man is Jon. She would think that since she knows him, she won't go through with it, but to her surprise and shock, the FM continue the contract order for her to kill him. This will be Martin's "conflict of the heart against itself" for Arya.

But of course we know why the Faceless Men would override their rule just for Jon.

“...these men and their ships are well-known to us. No, these other sails … from farther east, perhaps … one hears queer talk of dragons.”

“Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit.”

“My lord jests. You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.”

No, I suppose not. “My apologies, Lord Tycho.”

**Yes, this presumes that The Iron Bank are in league with the Faceless Men.

[Julia H.]

I know what you mean, but I'm still holding on some of mixture between the two.

I feel the Faceless Men will make a special exception for Jon to Arya's surprise and horror. I could see this happening.

Arya may not know 'this' man (who turned out to be Jon), who she is being sent to assassinate. Martin will reverse the situation, just like how Jon didn't know who Ygritte was when his knife was at her throat, Arya (with her FM face), would be shock to find out that 'this' man is Jon. She would think that since she knows him, she won't go through with it, but to her surprise and shock, the FM continue the contract order for her to kill him. This will be Martin's "conflict of the heart against itself" for Arya.

But of course we know why the Faceless Men would override their rule just for Jon.

“...these men and their ships are well-known to us. No, these other sails … from farther east, perhaps … one hears queer talk of dragons.”

“Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit.”

“My lord jests. You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.”

No, I suppose not. “My apologies, Lord Tycho.”

**Yes, this presumes that The Iron Bank are in league with the Faceless Men.

It would be a surprise for Arya - but would it really be a serious conflict of the heart for her?

Anyway, if this happened, then it would be fitting if Arya arrived just in time to save Jon's life or at least to help him in some dangerous situation (instead of killing him). I like to entertain the idea that Roose Bolton might be killed by Arya, to mention just one possibility.

EDIT: By the way, I seem to remember that when Arya sailed to Braavos with the FM coin, all the sailors were anxious to tell her their names - but I may be wrong.

[Chocs]

No, you're not wrong. They kept repeating their names so she could remember them and not kill them later on.

[sweetsunray]

No, you're not wrong. They kept repeating their names so she could remember them and not kill them later on.

Yup, they did. As if she would remember it. It's not the name that is important. The FM don't reply "I recognize that name", they say "I know him/her". I hear over hundreds of name within a year. And they're easily forgotten.

Besides, the FM also know who someone is. They know what the insurance conman does. They know what the ugly girl's father did. Jaqen knows what sort of monster Joffrey is and he very much wanted Arya to give his name to kill. He was practically salivating at the idea of it. They know Balon wants to go back to the old ways and go reaving and take salt-women and so on. The FM are partly responsible of bringing down the dragonlord slavemasters of Valyria, the doom and creating a settlement for escaped slaves in Braavos together with the Moonsingers. Braavos forbids reaving, slaving and anything like it (but with another name), and it was part of their requirements as a pact with Pentos.

From the evidence, that you need to gather by reading between the lines, the priests decide who will be a hit that would please the Many Faced God. That also implies they know who wouldn't be. This means they very much know all there is to know about the target, and thus they would know Jon would be Arya's family raised along with her, just as they would know that Alayne is Sansa and her sister.

The FM are fighting for the big game and humanity, and they do it by assassinating people. As I do expect Jon to be fighting on the same side of the FM, they won't put a hit on him. And if they did, they wouldn't have Arya do it.

[lojzelote]

lojzelote,

So, one the one hand, you are saying that UnJon would somehow be wrong and Arya would be horrified by what he has become so she would probably want to offer him the gift of mercy:

On the other hand, you are saying:

1) UnJon will do his duty better and more conscientiously than he did before dying, and will possibly be in a leadership position, with the NW being unaware of what he really is;

2) UnJon will possess the vast majority of human emotions and he will be generally better off than UnBeric and UnCat (although still psychologically and physically damaged);

3) unlike UnBeric, who seemed to develop a rather casual attitude to dying and who voluntarily gave up his unlife in the end, UnJon will value his unlife as any mortal would value his / her true life (IMO that's the only way for his ultimate heroic sacrifice to have any meaning);

4) it will reach the point where the reader will also sympathize with him and want to him to go on ... hm... living, and his second death will be perceived to be a loss;

5) his unlife will not be much different from his previous life in Castle Black.

My questions are:

What exactly is so horrifying about this UnJon that Arya would sooner give him the gift of mercy than be happy to see him again - that, as you say, she would have the same reaction to him as to Lady Stoneheart (while you are emphasizing the differences between them)? The fact that he is psychologically and physically damaged? Who isn't damaged in this world?

More importantly, what would make this UnJon (as you describe him) UnJon in the first place rather than a fully resurrected human being (Jon), albeit in some ways damaged - but still possessing the vast majority of human emotions? What would make him different from the living Jon and what exactly is it that would make him horrifying, as horrifying as Lady Stoneheart, in the eyes of the character who loves him more than anyone else in the world, while, at the same time, the reader would be supposed to feel a loss at his ultimate death and consider this death a meaningful and heroic sacrifice for a noble purpose, contrary to what many of us feel in the case of Lady Stoneheart?

Arya being shocked and terrified at reuniting with an undead Jon is something what I find more likely than her falling in love with him and making sweet love and babies with him, yes, but it's not something I'm wedded to. It's one of the many things which I think may (or may not) happen. I'm not dead sure about every idea I bring up on these forums. If I was, then I wouldn't have much to say.

As for your questions: my basic answer is... I don't know? How can I possibly know what unJon should be like and how the author thinks his readership should react to him? Undeadness is not a real life phenomenon, it's all made up by GRRM. I can't give firm answers, only my assumptions based on what he's written in previous books (and what the show have given us). Going by that, I think that unJon is a very likely possibilty, but I also think that Jon's character is far more central to the future of the story than Beric or Cat (sorry, Cat), so I assume that GRRM won't go full LS wit him, because that would turn off way too many readers. And of course, GRRM set it up in such a way that he could justify why unJon has far more common with the old Jon than LS has in common with Catelyn.

What it's good for, I'm not fully certain either. I have written as much in my answer to @Shadowcat. Why did Cat need to be zombified, exactly? She didn't, as far as I am concerned. It all could have been pullen off with a living Catelyn, drastically changed by all the suffering she gone through. But GRRM thought that horror elements will add more flavour to the story, apparently (which is something some readers agree with and some don't and both camps are quite vocal about it). Perhaps GRRM thinks that an ultimately doomed, ailing, but still very human unJon will affect readers more? That's my take on it, momentarily, but I can't know for sure.

(ETA: I was a bit too happy after a party, and I formulated a part of my post nonsensically, so, a late edit now. I'm sorry for that.)

Another possibilty is that we'll get the "full resurrection", but we've never seen a "full resurrection" occur in the books as of yet, it's only a fan theory that it's possible. Now, is it possible? Hell, yes, it could be, if GRRM decides so, although he hasn't set a precedent for it except for the vague "only death can pay for life", in which case Mel might slaughter Shireen, Gilly's baby, or somebody else, and Jon's body will work (mostly) normally... but he would still die at the end, I'm 99% sure of that. Because I don't believe that GRRM would let live someone whose continuing existence depended on a magical resurrection and - in this case - blood sacrifice. A "fully resurrected Jon", as you put it, would still be tainted, his whole existence would depend on somebody else being robbed of their own life, and I couldn't cheer for it and I can't see GRRM approve of it either.

[Chocs]

Yup, they did. As if she would remember it. It's not the name that is important. The FM don't reply "I recognize that name", they say "I know him/her". I hear over hundreds of name within a year. And they're easily forgotten.

Besides, the FM also know who someone is. They know what the insurance conman does. They know what the ugly girl's father did. Jaqen knows what sort of monster Joffrey is and he very much wanted Arya to give his name to kill. He was practically salivating at the idea of it. They know Balon wants to go back to the old ways and go reaving and take salt-women and so on. The FM are partly responsible of bringing down the dragonlord slavemasters of Valyria, the doom and creating a settlement for escaped slaves in Braavos together with the Moonsingers. Braavos forbids reaving, slaving and anything like it (but with another name), and it was part of their requirements as a pact with Pentos.

From the evidence, that you need to gather by reading between the lines, the priests decide who will be a hit that would please the Many Faced God. That also implies they know who wouldn't be. This means they very much know all there is to know about the target, and thus they would know Jon would be Arya's family raised along with her, just as they would know that Alayne is Sansa and her sister.

The FM are fighting for the big game and humanity, and they do it by assassinating people. As I do expect Jon to be fighting on the same side of the FM, they won't put a hit on him. And if they did, they wouldn't have Arya do it.

Besides, Arya is still an acolyte, they won't send her after Jon. They probably at the very least know something about the targets, so would probably know about their history. I don't really see it happening. If she's going to leave the HoBaW she will leave on her own accords, imo. It won't be happening soon though, maybe in the next book, but before that, we'll have more of her training.

The whole FM business is messy, no clue on what they really want. They won't let her go that easily, she's in a very Luke Skywalker type of situation, I feel. Her destination seems to be The Wall, she's been trying to get their since Book 1, iirc. George seriously has kept her as such a big wild card, she can go any way.

[Julia H.]

lojzelote,

We don't know which way GRRM is going but perhaps we all assume that the book will make sense in the end. What's the difference between an UnJon and a fully resurrected Jon? Well, the undead we have seen so far are very far from being fully alive or from having complex human feelings. What is more, as far as I can tell, they have lost / are losing part of their humanity. And yes, they are kept alive with magic, so we can be pretty sure that they won't survive long. Even the readers see no point in letting them linger much longer. Lady Stoneheart is a symbolic figure representing revenge like one of the Furies in Geek mythology. She may have some part to play yet, but it's not likely that she would be able to do anything else but hanging Freys big time. UnBeric also kept focusing on his last task in life, losing gradually more and more of himself (as well as his memories) until he had enough. They are both part of the big "life versus death" theme of the book, and they may even be there for the horror element, as you say. But these are not main characters in the story, it is not their job to resolve any conflicts, therefore their limitations don't spoil the plot.

If a character is supposed to be a central character, even a hero, then such a narrow scope of agency and personality simply won't be satisfying. If the readers know that UnJon will have to die because he is operated by magic, then how does this "magic-operated" life count as a meaningful sacrifice? A robot cannot be a hero, an improved version of an undead zombie cannot be a hero, only a living human being can. What I mean by a "fully resurrected" Jon is a Jon who has retained his full, human personality, who is still capable of changing, of developing, who can keep his memories and his human emotions, who is not operated by magic at all, who still has his free will, who can love and be loved, and who still has a real life to sacrifice.

It is true we have not seen anything like that in the books. And just for the record, I am not at all fond of the idea of human sacrifice (Shireen or anyone) - except when it's voluntary, which may be the direction where Jon's storyline is going.

But then my next question is - what is the narrative necessity to resurrect Jon instead of simply keeping him alive? On my part, I think keeping him alive (despite very bad injuries) should be enough (and I don't think magical healing should be more difficult or less believeable than magical resurrection, zombie or not), but then GRRM may think otherwise, and if he does, then I suppose he has some good reason. What I can't believe is that he has built up the Jon character for five books just to kill him off with a number of unresolved issues (Catelyn's job in the books was done before she became Lady Stoneheart) and replace him with a magically operated zombie, even if the zombie is somehow "better off" than the other zombies in universe; and I can't believe that he will have a magically operated zombie finish Jon's job (as Lord Commander or whatever) in the novel. All in all, I don't see UnJon coming at all.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Interesting bit I just looked at. Quentyn Martell is 19 correct? He thinks he wants to marry Gwyneth Yronwood and have a child with her.

More recently, the youngest of Lord Yronwood's daughters had taken to following him about the castle. Gwyneth was but twelve, a small, scrawny girl whose dark eyes and brown hair set her apart in that house of blue-eyed blondes. She was clever, though, as quick with words as with her hands, and fond of telling Quentyn that he had to wait for her to flower, so she could marry him.

That was before Prince Doran had summoned him to the Water Gardens. And now the most beautiful woman in the world was waiting in Meereen, and he meant to do his duty and claim her for his bride. She will not refuse me. She will honor the agreement. Daenerys Targaryen would need Dorne to win the Seven Kingdoms, and that meant that she would need him. It does not mean that she will love me, though. She may not even like me.

Quentyn did not want to die at all. I want to go back to Yronwood and kiss both of your sisters, marry Gwyneth Yronwood, watch her flower into beauty, have a child by her.

Isn't that the same sort of age gap we are expecting for Jon and Arya in the next few books? Quentyn was expected to marry Dany but didn't want to but did his duty. It didn't end well. I wonder if Jon will mirror that. He's expected to marry Dany but jilts her for 12 year old Arya, doing what Quentyn should have done?

I just found that age gap very striking considering our discussion about how 'GRRM would never'. The comparisons really struck me though.

[Joan Jett]

Interesting bit I just looked at. Quentyn Martell is 19 correct? He thinks he wants to marry Gwyneth Yronwood and have a child with her.

Isn't that the same sort of age gap we are expecting for Jon and Arya in the next few books? Quentyn was expected to marry Dany but didn't want to but did his duty. It didn't end well. I wonder if Jon will mirror that. He's expected to marry Dany but jilts her for 12 year old Arya, doing what Quentyn should have done?

I just found that age gap very striking considering our discussion about how 'GRRM would never'. The comparisons really struck me though.

Wow great find! I can definitely the similarities between Gwenyth and Arya. And the age difference between Arya and Jon is two years less than the difference between Quentyn and Gwen, so age doesn't seem to be a problem.

[Julia H.]

How old is Jon when he becomes Lord Commander? Sixteen? Planetos people obviously mature faster than RL ones. Perhaps it's something to do with the seasons...

Interestingly, Jon thinks that "Girls of twelve were children" (in the Seven Kingdoms), but he allows that it might be different with the wildlings...

Since girls tend to marry young, it is apparently not unusual to think of a girl of twelve as one's future wife at least.

[Chocs]

Interesting bit I just looked at. Quentyn Martell is 19 correct? He thinks he wants to marry Gwyneth Yronwood and have a child with her.

Isn't that the same sort of age gap we are expecting for Jon and Arya in the next few books? Quentyn was expected to marry Dany but didn't want to but did his duty. It didn't end well. I wonder if Jon will mirror that. He's expected to marry Dany but jilts her for 12 year old Arya, doing what Quentyn should have done?

I just found that age gap very striking considering our discussion about how 'GRRM would never'. The comparisons really struck me though.

That's indeed a very good find. Sort of like love vs duty kind of thing. Ironically, we also see Jon struggling with it (saving Arya vs his vows) and it did not end well for him when he chose the former, while it's the complete opposite with Quentyn.

[lojzelote]

lojzelote,

We don't know which way GRRM is going but perhaps we all assume that the book will make sense in the end. What's the difference between an UnJon and a fully resurrected Jon? Well, the undead we have seen so far are very far from being fully alive or from having complex human feelings. What is more, as far as I can tell, they have lost / are losing part of their humanity. And yes, they are kept alive with magic, so we can be pretty sure that they won't survive long. Even the readers see no point in letting them linger much longer. Lady Stoneheart is a symbolic figure representing revenge like one of the Furies in Geek mythology. She may have some part to play yet, but it's not likely that she would be able to do anything else but hanging Freys big time. UnBeric also kept focusing on his last task in life, losing gradually more and more of himself (as well as his memories) until he had enough. They are both part of the big "life versus death" theme of the book, and they may even be there for the horror element, as you say. But these are not main characters in the story, it is not their job to resolve any conflicts, therefore their limitations don't spoil the plot.

If a character is supposed to be a central character, even a hero, then such a narrow scope of agency and personality simply won't be satisfying. If the readers know that UnJon will have to die because he is operated by magic, then how does this "magic-operated" life count as a meaningful sacrifice? A robot cannot be a hero, an improved version of an undead zombie cannot be a hero, only a living human being can. What I mean by a "fully resurrected" Jon is a Jon who has retained his full, human personality, who is still capable of changing, of developing, who can keep his memories and his human emotions, who is not operated by magic at all, who still has his free will, who can love and be loved, and who still has a real life to sacrifice.

It is true we have not seen anything like that in the books. And just for the record, I am not at all fond of the idea of human sacrifice (Shireen or anyone) - except when it's voluntary, which may be the direction where Jon's storyline is going.

But then my next question is - what is the narrative necessity to resurrect Jon instead of simply keeping him alive? On my part, I think keeping him alive (despite very bad injuries) should be enough (and I don't think magical healing should be more difficult or less believeable than magical resurrection, zombie or not), but then GRRM may think otherwise, and if he does, then I suppose he has some good reason. What I can't believe is that he has built up the Jon character for five books just to kill him off with a number of unresolved issues (Catelyn's job in the books was done before she became Lady Stoneheart) and replace him with a magically operated zombie, even if the zombie is somehow "better off" than the other zombies in universe; and I can't believe that he will have a magically operated zombie finish Jon's job (as Lord Commander or whatever) in the novel. All in all, I don't see UnJon coming at all.

I don't understand how Furies of the Greek mythology mean that Catelyn had to be turned into a zombie? Couldn't she be equally pissed off while alive? After all what had happened to her, it would hardly be a stretch. "Symbolic" or not, her zombiefication was not necessary. Particularly since Furies are not croaking zombies, as far as I can remember, nor do they need to be present in ASoIaF in the first place. It happened because GRRM thought it'll be cool to have undead Catelyn killling the Freys. Perhaps he liked the idea of a "Fury", but it certainly didn't mean he had to take Catelyn's story the way of zombiefication.

For that matter, LS appears to have a free will of her own. She's searching for her daughters, so we know that she's capable of more than killing the Freys. We also know she still possesses some human emotions because we've seen her mourning over Robb's crown, which means she has to remember her previous life to some extent.

Also, we shouldn't forget that with Jon GRRM can use the cheat-out of his soul finding sanctuary in Ghost, which did not apply to Catelyn or Beric. This is why I think that the harm in his case would be mostly physical, the psychological one coming mostly from the traumatic events before his death and the shock of living inside Ghost. As for the physical consequences, we can't know for sure, I assume he would have closer to Beric than Cat, but we don't know what exactly that entails.

As to meaningful sacrifice: I think that if you want something badly, but you give it up for a greater good, it is a sacrifice. It doesn't matter if other people think that the thing that person cherished was not worth it anyway. If unJon still wanted to unlive, it would count as a sacrifice, IMO. To put this into real life terms, if you think that a severely handicapped person's life's shit and you would rather die in their place, if they want to live all the same, then if they die so someone else could live, it would still be a sacrifice on their part, it wouldn't matter that the quality of their life was inferior to that of an average person, because it still meant a lot to them.

As for the rest, let's just say that I think that a resurrection of some kind is coming

possible show spoilers

The show changed my mind, since Jon is as dead as dead can be. Yea, sure, they've already departed from the books in many ways, but his resurrection appears to be something they've been setting up for a

long time, since the time their Melisandre has met Thoros and wondered over unBeric, and really, I don't see why distrust them on this, since a dead Jon seems like a likely outcome in the books as well.

and the Uns have far more precedent than anything else, although other options are not downright impossible. YMMV.