Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Or Arya sides with Jon over Sansa.

Why? To serve what literary reason and answer which 'foretold' dilemma?

[Ice Turtle]

If it were to still exist, what is the proposed significance? Is it banking on Rickon dying and Jon and Arya continuing the Stark line as KITN/Lord of Winterfell?

Climax of continuing and important storyline, love story for two key characters, maybe closure for Targ/Stark story.

While I have written that Arya could give Jon arms, make him Stark through marriage, this part isn't key to the theory. There seems to be few hints that Arya will return to Winterfell, there seems to be more things pointing against it. Nymeria never returned to Rhoyne, she made a new home. Even if Jon and Arya marry they don't have to end up in Winterfell. It could be Harrenhall, Dragonstone, Summerhall, Red Keep or a hastily built tent with them forever on march.

As for Rickon, he is an able bodied male Stark heir, most people think it makes him safe, I think it lessens his chances to survive rapidly. GRRM prefers messy situations where no one can be certain what is right. As it would be if the Starks ended up with bastrd/Targ/oathbreaker, female who had been missing for years and absent cripple. And even if Rickon lives it could be that Robb already made a mess of succession, there is a small chance he named Arya before Jon for Cat's sake even if he believed her dead. He never mentions her in his speech before the will signing and the crown Stoneheart is keeping could very well be meant for her.

[ARYa_Nym]

There are theories that Nymeria is already in the North. Plus, in AGoT she said she would find Nymeria in the woods then go to Jon. Jon was always the goal.

I don't think she has to go back to the Riverlands. I've already complained about that idea. I had no problem with her storyline before but I would not like for her to go back to it. Some people have a problem with her staying in Braavos while I have a problem with the idea of her going back to the Riverlands on yet another travelogue.

I dislike the notion that everyone else can progress but she must remain with the repetitive storyline and doing nothing that effects the major plot. Even for the theories of her helping the BWB kill Freys again she does something that was going to happen anyways just like when she did the Weasel Soup. It pales in comparison to what other major characters are doing and I like her more than them so it would be a disappointment if certain portions of the fandom got their wish that Arya's contribution in the books is kill a minor character that most of Westeros does not care about-LS and helping the BWB who btw were her captors to kill John Doe Freys. Besides, she wanted Thoros to raise her dad from the dead so I doubt she'd think LS needs killing.

This leads me to GRRM supposedly saying that they have different paths in response to a question about a romantic future. To me if true then they don't really need to see each other again. I think the Mercy chapter reflects the different paths. To me that chapter killed any idea that she was just going to go back to being just like Arry with Gendry in the woods.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Climax of continuing and important storyline, love story for two key characters, maybe closure for Targ/Stark story.

While I have written that Arya could give Jon arms, make him Stark through marriage, this part isn't key to the theory. There seems to be few hints that Arya will return to Winterfell, there seems to be more things pointing against it. Nymeria never returned to Rhoyne, she made a new home. Even if Jon and Arya marry they don't have to end up in Winterfell. It could be Harrenhall, Dragonstone, Summerhall, Red Keep or a hastily built tent with them forever on march.

As for Rickon, he is an able bodied male Stark heir, most people think it makes him safe, I think it lessens his chances to survive rapidly. GRRM prefers messy situations where no one can be certain what is right. As it would be if the Starks ended up with bastrd/Targ/oathbreaker, female who had been missing for years and absent cripple. And even if Rickon lives it could be that Robb already made a mess of succession, there is a small chance he named Arya before Jon for Cat's sake even if he believed her dead. He never mentions her in his speech before the will signing and the crown Stoneheart is keeping could very well be meant for her.

Its possible that Robb's crown will make its way to Arya. I notice that at the end of last season of the show as Arya is leaving for Braavos the first part of the music is Robb's 'King in the North' theme, the second half is the Faceless Men theme. It would also be a good reason the Greatjon is still alive, a giant in chains ready to break loose, and the man who crowned Robb King in the North. Which leads to the line 'It was the dragons we married', Robb rose again, to bring the North back into the 7 kingdoms there needs to be another 'marriage'? (I don't expect it to have been a literal marriage but another bit of clunky 'foreshadowing')

[ARYa_Nym]

Plus, if it's true that Nymeria is already in the Wolfswood. A parallel to Queen Nymeria that I've made is that the queen left the Rhoyne and never returned to it. If Nymeria and her pack have already left the Trident then she doesn't need to go back and Arya needs to go where she is to get her. Also, that letter implied that the final battle was in the North and that Nightfort connection may have significance. That letter also said the pack helped against the Others. That can be Nymeria's pack's major contribution rather than storming a castle which sounded like a good way to get slaughtered.

[chrisdaw]

Why? To serve what literary reason and answer which 'foretold' dilemma?

When Jon comes South Tyrion and Sansa sit the IT. Arya sides with Jon, tells Sansa to go.

Climax of continuing and important storyline, love story for two key characters, maybe closure for Targ/Stark story.

What important storyline? Where is the love story? In the outdated outline it drove the rivalry between Tyrion and Jon and it became a drama in itself, the anguish of their feelings and not being able to act on them, only to have them dashed away with the revelation of Jon's heritage. It was to be central to the plot with a moving climax.

Ygritte shows us what kind of person Jon is, where his priorities and loyalties sit, Cersei shows us where Jaime's head was once at, Brienne where he is now. What will a Jon and Arya pairing reveal about them?

If it's still there it's obscured and without the emotional charge first proposed, probably it would primarily serve to ram home the point to readers that cousins marrying was normal once upon a time.

[lojzelote]

I'm torn about this pairing because I love Jon and Arya separately, but as a couple I get completely icked out. I've tried being open minded about it but I just feel it would ruin the end for me if they end up together.

As far as it still happening, I think it totally could in the books. There's so many clues and connections GRRM has planted as made obvious in this thread. But I just can't imagine it happening in the show. And I don't see the books and show ending with different brides for Jon.

Can you imagine the reaction from the unsullied when little Maisie is paired with Kit who is 10 years older than her, especially considering how young she was when this all started? Even if she's 18 or 19 when this ends, she's always going to be the little girl from season 1. My sister, who hasn't read the books, read GRRM's 1993 letter and she literally gagged out loud at the Jon and Arya portion. Lol

I agree with you. I reread the relevant parts in the books, but I don't think I could get into it to save my life. People keep saying that Jon and Arya love each other, so it's been built up - but all love does not come from Eros, ffs. I mean, I love my parents and I'm still very close to them, one of my worst fears is disappointing them, but I'm certainly not passionately in love with them, thank you very much. Now, I'm an only child, but I bet it's the same with sibling relationships. I may ask some of my friends if they would see their siblings as potencial romantic partners in case they found out they're adopted.

Now, I guess George could claim that the incest taboo doesn't apply to the Targs and it's inborn since they are such a high fantasy family anyway. So that way he could excuse Jon. But Arya? The only way I could buy into it would be what one poster had written in another thread, which is that she would have to be identity-confused, heavily traumatized and generally mistrustful of other men, so she would see her favorite brother as the only safe male and latch onto him... but what kind of relationship would be that? Another unhealthy mess, like Cersei/Jaime. Nothing to cheer for, honestly.

As for the age issue, it would certainly offend the gentle sensibilities of viewers, but at least Maisie would be legal and the characters visibly older than when the show started (and they were all aged-up since the start to begin with). IMHO Arya's age is a much bigger problem in the books.

(Anyway, I wonder if George's sisters heard of this and if yes, what they think of it. ;) )

[ARYa_Nym]

Honestly, after the latest chapter it seems like he said got a problem with her age deal with it. Yes, I'm going there even without the age gap. The difference with Jon is that it might compromise Jon being likable to readers and he goes through back flips to achieve that. Although I do believe that she is just a year or two younger than Lyanna when she first caught Rhaegar's eye.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Yes but do you look at sexual partners and think, 'She reminds me of my mum'. More specifically, 'I wonder if she's as skinny as my mum under all those heavy furs'

This has been a creeptastic post!

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Plus, if it's true that Nymeria is already in the Wolfswood. A parallel to Queen Nymeria that I've made is that the queen left the Rhoyne and never returned to it. If Nymeria and her pack have already left the Trident then she doesn't need to go back and Arya needs to go where she is to get her. Also, that letter implied that the final battle was in the North and that Nightfort connection may have significance. That letter also said the pack helped against the Others. That can be Nymeria's pack's major contribution rather than storming a castle which sounded like a good way to get slaughtered.

On the other hand, the actual books Otherized the Freys, having Cat perish at their hands.

I can see a return to the Riverlands, but not in the same way, as a repeat of the previous journey. I could see a very brief visit, a quick closure of old accounts and depart. One or two chapters and that's it.

But, I agree on that: her contribution to the story will be major.

When Jon comes South Tyrion and Sansa sit the IT. Arya sides with Jon, tells Sansa to go.

Sorry but this is not convincing, not convincing at all. Plus, it stretches the story far, far beyond "a dream of Spring". That sounds more like a dream of Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter... and Spring again.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Its possible that Robb's crown will make its way to Arya. I notice that at the end of last season of the show as Arya is leaving for Braavos the first part of the music is Robb's 'King in the North' theme, the second half is the Faceless Men theme. It would also be a good reason the Greatjon is still alive, a giant in chains ready to break loose, and the man who crowned Robb King in the North. Which leads to the line 'It was the dragons we married', Robb rose again, to bring the North back into the 7 kingdoms there needs to be another 'marriage'? (I don't expect it to have been a literal marriage but another bit of clunky 'foreshadowing')

There's way more foreshadowing of Bran as the Builder's true heir:

The Stark children call themselves by certain titles and names, and those titles are pretty indicative of how they feel about their Stark identity, and their place in its future. Arya of course calls herself a "wolf" consistently, and is called a wolf. There's Sansa and her parents: "I'm not your daughter. I'm Lord Eddard's and Lady Catelyn's: the blood of Winterfell."

Bran calls himself and is called by others, "the heir"

“Someday, you will make a good lord for Winterfell.”-Maester Luwin to Bran, ACOK

"You are your brother’s heir and the Stark in Winterfell”-Ser Rodrik to Bran, ACOK

He was the Stark in Winterfell, his father’s son and his brother’s heir, and almost a man grown -Bran, ACOK

“I’m the the prince. I’m the Stark in Winterfell.”-Bran, ACOK.

“You are our prince as well, orlord’s son, and our king’s true heir” -Meera Reed to Bran, ASOS.

Jojen gazed up at him withhis dark green eyes. “There’s nothing here to hurt us, Your Grace.”-Bran,ASOS

“He’s our prince.”-Meera to SamwellTarly, ASOS

"Bran,"he said sullenly. Bran the Broken. "Brandon Stark." The cripple boy."The Prince of Winterfell.”-Bran,ASOS

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins.

GRRM actually compares Bran to King Arthur, and wondered about making the book all about him:

"In the back of their heads, people are thinking Bran is the hero of the story. He’s young King Arthur. We’re going to follow this young boy–and then, boom: You don’t expect something like that to happen to him. So that was successful [laughs].

Including the fact the name Bran means "raven", Brynden Rivers gives us strong evidence that the Builder was a greenseer:

"It was the Singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven… but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin.”

The Builder is said to have used the magic of the CotF to build the Wall and Winterfell. Winterfell is called a "monstrous stone tree" in Bran's POV, and tree imagery is all over Bran's story. The qualities of "dark" and "strong" also connect Bran to the Crown of Winter:

“Open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.”- (Catelyn, ACOK.)

"The grey is strong, stronger than he knows.”-Jojen to Meera, about Bran/Summer, ACOK

“Prince of the green, prince of the wolfswood. He was strong and swift and fierce, and all that lived in the good green world went in fear of him.”-Bran, ASOS.

The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth.-Bran, AGOT.

“Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too”-Bran ACOK.

The stone is strong. Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I’m not dead either.- Bran, ACOK

Never fear the darkness, Bran…..The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother’s milk. Darkness will make you strong.”-Bran, ADWD.

Bran is knows how to rule Winterfell based on the 12 chapters in which he did just that:

”Most of the morning was given over to talk of grains and greens and salting meat”-Bran, ACOK

”In such cases, her liege lord must find her a suitable match.”-[ser Rodrik, referring t widowed Lady Hornwood]- Bran, ACOK

”… and went from that to speak of how he had strengthened the port’s defenses, detailing the cost of every improvement.” Bran, ACOK.

The maester had taught him all the banners: the mailed fist of the Glovers, silver on scarlet; Lady Mormont’s black bear; the hideous flayed man that went before Roose Bolton of the Dreadfort; a bull moose for the Hornwoods; a battle-axe for the Cerwyns; three sentinel trees for the Tallharts; and the fearsome sigil of House Umber, a roaring giant in shattered chains.

And soon enough he learned the faces too, when the lords and their sons and knights retainer came to Winterfell to feast.

- Bran, AGOT

Bran knew what to say. ‘Thank you for the notion, my lord,’ he blurted out before Ser Rodrik could speak.”-Bran, ACOK

Maester Luwin crouched beside Bran’s seat to whisper counsel in his ear. “You must greet these ones warmly. I had not thought to see them here, but … you know who they are?”

Bran nodded. “Crannogmen. From the Neck.”-Bran, ACOK.

"Your notion about the bastard may have merit, Bran,’ Maester Luwin said after. ‘One day you will be a good lord for Winterfell, I think.’”- Bran, ACOK

Bran takes pride in the role:

"Bran flushed with pleasure. Being a lord was not so tedious as he had feared"

Men crowded shoulder to shoulder on the benches. “Stark!” they called as Bran trotted past, rising to their feet. “Winterfell! Winterfell!”

He was old enough to know that it was not truly him they shouted for—it was the harvest they cheered, it was Robb and his victories, it was his lord father and his grandfather and all the Starks going back eight thousand years. Still, it made him swell with pride. For so long as it took him to ride the length of that hall he forgot that he was broken.

You can also read my theory about how Bran will return to Winterfell here:

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

^ Why, thank you George for telling us what you are going to do next and how it's going to play out!

Glad I could help!

But have you heard the story of the Bran the Blessed/the Fisher King? It fits very well with Bran and Jon's stories.

[lojzelote]

Honestly, after the latest chapter it seems like he said got a problem with her age deal with it. Yes, I'm going there even without the age gap. The difference with Jon is that it might compromise Jon being likable to readers and he goes through back flips to achieve that. Although I do believe that she is just a year or two younger than Lyanna when she first caught Rhaegar's eye.

Maybe... but

since he highlights that Raff is a pervent for desiring Arya, I'm doubtful. Acknowledging something doesn't equal to condoning it. :dunno:

I really don't care if it would make characters look bad, but I'm troubled by the idea that it would be portrayed as positive.

Either way, if this has been George's plan, I'd like to know why he didn't make Arya's character older since the beginning. She could have easily been Sansa's younger fraternal twin.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

He planned a 5 year gap lojzelote. She would come back 16.-17 after a Clash of Kings but then he ditched it and wrote Dance and Feast where he catches up the adults. Arya only has 5 chapters in those 2 books. She has double that in Clash of Kings alone, Storm of Swords too which suggests its not really essential in and of itself. Just as a stop over to her next part when everyone else is in place like she is.

[ARYa_Nym]

On the other hand, the actual books Otherized the Freys, having Cat perish at their hands.

I can see a return to the Riverlands, but not in the same way, as a repeat of the previous journey. I could see a very brief visit, a quick closure of old accounts and depart. One or two chapters and that's it.

But, I agree on that: her contribution to the story will be major.

There have been complaints about her being pointless and that she doesn't matter in comparison to the other major characters. Her time in the Riverlands really does not help that. It was a story that mattered to her specifically but it was unlike Tyrion, Dany, Jon, and Sansa where there were potential grand scale effects. I understand Braavos doesn't help either but it's training and obviously she'll move past it at some point. Potential chain reaction targets won't be available by the time she gets there and when she was there she didn't kill them. She preferred to kill people who mattered to her. For her own story it made sense. But I want to be able to have an answer at the end as to what did she contribute to the story, why did she matter, what did she do that no one else could, and I want it to be on par with the other major characters. At this point Rickon and Jeyne Poole are effecting the plot more than her and I want that to change. I don't think the Riverlands helps that personally. Maybe one chapter would be okay but I would prefer it not to happen. ETA: I can see your idea of a quick resolve being preferable to the other options proposed though.

Maybe... but

since he highlights that Raff is a pervent for desiring Arya, I'm doubtful. Acknowledging something doesn't equal to condoning it. :dunno:

I really don't care if it would make characters look bad, but I'm troubled by the idea that it would be portrayed as positive.

Either way, if this has been George's plan, I'd like to know why he didn't make Arya's character older since the beginning. She could have easily been Sansa's younger fraternal twin.

What I mean is that even if a character said that's gross it still happened anyways. He still wrote it out. He could have stopped it and not even go there but he went there. To add Viserys said Drogo was disgusting for desiring Dany but that didn't stop what he had planned.

Like I said I don't think he's going to do a romance but I wouldn't be surprised if she continues to do things that she is considered too young for.

Well, he meant to do a time gap but then that didn't work out.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Either way, if this has been George's plan, I'd like to know why he didn't make Arya's character older since the beginning. She could have easily been Sansa's younger fraternal twin.

There are a lot of interviews where he explains the problems that he had with the time, that didn't pass as quickly as he had wished for. This problem he was thinking to solve with the 5 years gap which he finally decided to ditch and, if a 12-year-old must conquer the world, so be it.

I do think it's possible that he might have dropped the on page love story part to only have it hinted at as an "ever after" epilogue story because of Arya's very young age, but then in another interview he said that after all she's been through she is more like 40 years old. We'll see.

Too bored to look for the sources of the interviews, but they are all around in the internet.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya hitting puberty seemed to be important originally but it got messed up.

George mentioned that he felt really silly about that planned 5 year jump. He imagined it originally going something like Jon sitting on the Wall going “Well, it’s been 5 fairly quiet years since I’ve been Lord Commander. But I’m starting to think that’ll pick up now…” and realized that the adults wouldn’t wait in their plot lines for Arya to hit puberty.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1441

But that doesn't mean she's not still going to be doing things a prepubescent child normally has no business doing. Especially with the child soldier inspiration she will mature and be exposed to some things far too early. But that I think that might give more credence to a sexual relationship rather than a romantic one.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

You can't escape this conundrum, embrace it!

I think Arya and Jon will meet again. I think that is heavily implied. Not only 'Different Roads sometimes lead to the same castle' but the continued bond between the two. I'm more certain Jon and Arya will meet again than I am Arya and Gendry will meet again.

Sorry, friend, but I cannot join you that hopeful hope.

I'm gonna place my money on them not reuniting (in person at least).

[Ice Turtle]

Either way, if this has been George's plan, I'd like to know why he didn't make Arya's character older since the beginning. She could have easily been Sansa's younger fraternal twin.

Probably because he counted that more time will pass till their reunion (like when he wanted a 5 years gap) or he went for Rhaegar/Lyanna parallel. Lyanna was 14 during Harrenhall and age gap between Rhaegar and Lyanna is not so different from Jon and Arya.

When Jon comes South Tyrion and Sansa sit the IT. Arya sides with Jon, tells Sansa to go.What important storyline? Where is the love story? In the outdated outline it drove the rivalry between Tyrion and Jon and it became a drama in itself, the anguish of their feelings and not being able to act on them, only to have them dashed away with the revelation of Jon's heritage. It was to be central to the plot with a moving climax.

Ygritte shows us what kind of person Jon is, where his priorities and loyalties sit, Cersei shows us where Jaime's head was once at, Brienne where he is now. What will a Jon and Arya pairing reveal about them?

If it's still there it's obscured and without the emotional charge first proposed, probably it would primarily serve to ram home the point to readers that cousins marrying was normal once upon a time.

Do you think there would be no drama with Jon Snow asking Who I am if not Ned Stark's bastard, and who is Arya if not my little sister? He will need redefine how he sees himself and how he sees his most important relationship with remaining Stark. Not to mention Jon remembers Arya only as a little girl he will need come with terms with what person she is now.

And when it comes to Arya nothing could probably mess with her priorities more than her feelings for Jon. It could make her wish for her own family or nudge her to embrace the role of highborn woman she was trying to escape her whole life.

As for the third part, well maybe for you, for me it would be a closure of a story aspect which started in AGOT and continued through all the books. Arya's story is almost an Odyssey but she is not trying to reach a place but a person and that is Jon.

[ARYa_Nym]

Probably because he counted that more time will pass till their reunion (like when he wanted a 5 years gap) or he went for Rhaegar/Lyanna parallel. Lyanna was 14 during Harrenhall and age gap between Rhaegar and Lyanna is not so different from Jon and Arya.

She could have been 13 going on 14. It depends on when her birthday was and when the tourney was. Rhaegar was in his early '20s but most of the fandom loves that pair.