Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[lojzelote]

I know about the 5-year gap. The thing is, he really should have planned for it better or he should have planned for what he would do if it failed. Because the way things turned out is that it failed and he is stuck with a too young protagonist. I don't mind it if it comes to her abilities, but if it should concern sex, that would be disturbing, particularly if it was portrayed as a good thing for her.

[ARYa_Nym]

At the same time he has Viserys voicing that Drogo is gross but then later on had that relationship seen as romantic. I heard he considers it one of the most romantic things about the series. The latest chapter may have been meant to disturb.

ETA:

Plus, with the fact that we think:

Raff is her first kiss but we don't really know for sure. We didn't see her when she first got to the Mummers and she has been flirting with sailors. But then if it is it is closely linked with killing.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

At the same time he has Viserys voicing that Drogo is gross but then later on had that relationship seen as romantic. I heard he considers it one of the most romantic things about the series. The latest chapter may have been meant to disturb.

ETA:

Plus, with the fact that we think:

Raff is her first kiss but we don't really know for sure. We didn't see her when she first got to the Mummers and she has been flirting with sailors. But then if it is it is closely linked with killing.

I would hold off making too many judgements based on the Mercy chapter.

That was first written when the Five Year Gap was in mind, and was released in a rather pre-edited state. When it comes out with TWOW, it will likely look quite different. The reason there's so much sexuality around Arya in that chapter is because she's supposed to be much older.

Some good points but the Mercy chapter isn't set in stone yet.

[ARYa_Nym]

I would hold off making too many judgements based on the Mercy chapter.

That was first written when the Five Year Gap was in mind, and was released in a rather pre-edited state. When it comes out with TWOW, it will likely look quite different. The reason there's so much sexuality around Arya in that chapter is because she's supposed to be much older.

Some good points but the Mercy chapter isn't set in stone yet.

She is depicted without a gap.

As lojzelote said:

A Lannister guard notes that she is still a child. Attention is made to the fact that she has not yet hit puberty and hasn't flowered. She lies when she tells him that she has.

[Elaena Targaryen]

It could be interesting to take a closer look to see if there is any differences in the tone of thoughts and feelings Arya and Jon have about each other pre gap and post, ditching the, gap. As in, does Martin maintain the status quo, tone it down or ramp it up?

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

She is depicted without a gap.

As lojzelote said:

A Lannister guard notes that she is still a child. Attention is made to the fact that she has not yet hit puberty and hasn't flowered. She lies when she tells him that she has.

Well, I mean it was sort of in the editing process, so she's stated as being about 12-13, but the chapter was "in the works" so to speak, which means that GRRM may in fact tone down a lot of the sexuality of that chapter in its final release.

I'd have to dig for the quote be he said on his livejournal that it was the first chapter he wrote pre-abandonment of the time gap.

[Greymoon]

You think there's something go on between Jon and Val?

I don't read that at all. I know the "gelding" threat was in jest really, but there hasn't been a lot actually friendly and personal interaction between them. Don't get me wrong, if that ship sailed, i would wave it out of the harbor, but I don't think it's there.

The letter didn't spell out R+L. You would still have to read between the lines of Ned's chapters to know, so it's not a full and true spoiler.

For me, Arya x Gendry feels endgame mostly cause of the whole deal with "I have a son, you have a daughter. We'll join our houses." It just ties it up so neatly for me, and I am inclined to think that Arya will like all of the other female POV's be involved in romance somehow. It would be weird not to. And if Jon dies, like I think he will based on his general hero arc and the Bran the Blessed connection, then having it be Gendry feels more right.

Maybe I gotta go back read Arya and Jon's chapters, but I'm not feeling the romantic connection. But the capital B comes from Ramsay being known as "the Bastard of Bolton." Although, if Ramsay is clearly a foil for Jon just as the Boltons are a foil for the Starks, is there a connection there?

In general, and this is entirely a personal feeling, Jon x Arya would ruin these characters for me. The incest would gross me out too much, not least of which them being raised as brother and sister. Cousins bother me less, but still nasty. A know a lot of people are rooting for Jon x Dany, but I'm indifferent even though I think that might become canon in some fashion.

Ah well, we'll just have to see how it all shakes out, but my final call is that Jon x Arya is out.

Funny how different readers have a different perception of the same books. Val + Jon is pretty obvious to me. There's plenty of hints... It's rather obvious he's smitten...

Some of Jon's thoughts on Val:

Val did not need to smile; she would have turned men's heads in any court in the wide world.

He admires her beauty.

They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

Her strength.

Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. “You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope.”

Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, “The only thanks I want is—”

“This is farewell, then,” she said, almost playfully.

Val is definitely flirting, he lets her.

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val besides him.

They look like they belong together [...] It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

“Have you been trying to steal my wolf?” he asked her. “Why not? If every woman had a direwolf, men would be much sweeter. Even crows.”

“Har!” laughed Tormund Giantsbane. “Don’t bandy words with this one, Lord Snow, she’s too clever for the likes o’ you and me. Best steal her quick, before Toregg wakes up and takes her first.”

What was it that oath Axel Florent had said of Val? "A nubile girl, I hear, and not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children." All true enough, but the wildling woman was so much more. She had proven that by finding Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord.

But that bridge had been burned a long time ago, and Jon himself had thrown the torch. “Toregg is welcome to her,” he announced. “I took a vow.”

Val is beautiful, Axel is an oath... Jon gets grumpy every time Axel says something about Val. And is there a hint of regret, here?

Also, just after his speech in the shield hall, when he hears Ser Patrick scream, Jon's first thought goes to Val, until he realizes that the scream doesn't belong to a woman.

What I don't see, though many have, is Gendry/Arya. Arya isn't interested in boys at all... sure, she sees him naked, pisses in front of him and so on, they banter and all...but it seems to me that their relationship is rather platonic, that of very good friends... I'm not feeling the romantic vibe...and it's not just to do with Arya's youth. Bran fancies himself in love with Meera, and he's younger than Arya, obviously.

...I also I find it easier to imagine Sansa with Gendry, than Arya. Plus, there's this quote:

"if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall" Jaime, when speaking about Sansa...and as you said, there's the whole ordeal of "you have a daughter, I have a son", only Sansa was the one promised to marry Robert's eldest son, not Arya...Sansa is also geographically closer, has developed empathy for bastards and was saddened to think no one would ever love her for herself, that men would only ever want her because of her claim.... all things considered, Gendry is a good match for her.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, I mean it was sort of in the editing process, so she's stated as being about 12-13, but the chapter was "in the works" so to speak, which means that GRRM may in fact tone down a lot of the sexuality of that chapter in its final release.

I'd have to dig for the quote be he said on his livejournal that it was the first chapter he wrote pre-abandonment of the time gap.

I think he was referring to the spelling errors. It has already been changed to accommodate the lack of time gap.

I mentioned that this chapter had quite a history. It's true. The first draft was written more than a decade ago. Originally, it was intended to be the opening Arya chapter after the infamous "five year gap," her first appearance in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS as initially conceived. Then it was supposed to be a part of A FEAST FOR CROWS, after I abandoned the five year gap and split the books. Then it was going to be the concluding Arya chapter in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. But it seemed more like an opening chapter than a closing one, so shortly before ADWD was published my editor and I agreed to remove it from DANCE and shift it over into WINDS. Of course, it has been revised, tightened, polished, and tweaked at every step of the way, so the version on my website has some significant differences from the "five year gap" version.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/362384.html

ETA: So the original chapter that we did not see may have been more adult and we got the toned down version. This chapter was supposed to be in ADWD so the gap had already been scrapped by then.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It could be interesting to take a closer look to see if there is any differences in the tone of thoughts and feelings Arya and Jon have about each other pre gap and post, ditching the, gap. As in, does Martin maintain the status quo, tone it down or ramp it up?

IMO, ADWD -- post-gap-ditch, can I use this form for abbreviation? -- Jon's thoughts regarding Arya & her perceived situation, have intensified the feeling that there is something planned for them. But I will wait for when Ice Turtle gathers the quotes, because I'm feeling a little lazy right now...

[Elaena Targaryen]

IMO, ADWD -- post-gap-ditch, can I use this form for abbreviation? --

For me yes, that is better articulated, thank you

Jon's thoughts regarding Arya & her perceived situation, have intensified the feeling that there is something planned for them. But I will wait for when Ice Turtle gathers the quotes, because I'm feeling a little lazy right now...

I agree and I wanted to point out that it's something that should be kept in mind as we go

[Greymoon]

IMO, ADWD -- post-gap-ditch, can I use this form for abbreviation? -- Jon's thoughts regarding Arya & her perceived situation, have intensified the feeling that there is something planned for them. But I will wait for when Ice Turtle gathers the quotes, because I'm feeling a little lazy right now...

Every woman/girl Jon feels comfortable with reminds him of Arya in one way or another. Ygritte did, Alys totally does, Val probably in some part, too (warrior princess, not a helpless southron flower, good rider)...

I'm not sure that GRRM is still going in the Arya/Jon direction, but I think we should trust him to make it believable and to write a good story -- no matter what direction he goes. We're all fans of his work here, I loved the first five books, I see no reason to think I might love the others less...

EDIT: spelling

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I've noticed that Jon has started detatching from her as sister in his predicament. Desperate to rein himself in, he has no sisters only brothers,“I have no sister.” The words were knives'. “My half-sister, truly …”. This coming from the man who says Sansa's constant referring to him as half-brother was hurtful. His love for Arya becomes the forefront of his story. First with Alys Karstark and Mel, then sending Mance to Winterfell, then treating with Stannis to bring her back, when everything fails he plans to go himself, and he gets stabbed for it.

I wonder if that is just Jon saying he has no family as a Night's Watchman as it seems or GRRM planting the seeds of 'She's not his sister' before its revealed. Or the idea that Jon can stop seeing her as his sister but not stop loving her?

[Han Snow]

Every women/girl Jon feels comfortable with reminds him of Arya in one way or another. Yrgitte did, Alys totally does, Val probably in some part, too (warrior princess, not a helpless southron flower, good rider)...

I'm not sure that GRRM is still going in the Arya/Jon direction, but I think we should trust him to make it believable and to write a good story -- no matter what direction he goes. We're all fans of his work here, I loved the first five books, I see no reason to doubt I might love the others less...

Yes. I also totally agree with your previous post concerning Jon and Val and that Sansa and Gendry seem better suited, though I actually believe that Gendry will be insignificant in the later books. We'll see his fate resolved along BwB and LS but I doubt there'll be much more of him.

[Greymoon]

Yes. I also totally agree with your previous post concerning Jon and Val and that Sansa and Gendry seem better suited, though I actually believe that Gendry will be insignificant in the later books. We'll see his fate resolved along BwB and LS but I doubt there'll be much more of him.

;)

I think Gendry might come back, he was such a big part of Arya's arc in these first book that I'd be surprised if he didn't come back... But not as a love interest, not for her. Gendry is very much attached to traditional values, imo. He can't seem to get past his status as low born either, constantly reminding Arya that she is a lady, that he is not 'worthy' of her, that she is not acting as she should... To me the song, No feather bed for me, is not a love song, its a song about an impossible love, because of different ideals, each lover shares their dream with the other -- and ultimately, the dreams are diametrical opposites... He wants a house, a bed, a lady to protect with his sword, she wants a love free of gender conventions, a love in the wild.

freedom vs conventions...I think, on some level here, Arya and Gendry are playing Lyanna and Robert...Gendry, stands for the traditional conventions, Arya for freedom, for going against conventions. And this is her voice, in the song:

and how she smiled and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him,

no feather bed for me.

I'll wear a gown of golden leaves

and bind my hair with grass,

but you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

People want to see this song as a hint at Arya/Gendry, but the song alone should not suffice to come to such a conclusion. There is a whole context to consider, and in all honesty, I don't recall reading anything that hinted at Arya having developed any sort of crush on Gendry. The opposite might be true, but it just isn't present, imo, in Arya's pov...though, we are all biased, probably :)

I'm ok with Jon/Arya. Like I posted earlier, I'm not certain GRRM will go that way anymore, but if he does, he'll do it brilliantly... I mean, it was the first romance he had planned apparently, from the very beginning...he's invested quite a bit in these two characters. and he seems fond of Arya especially. She was a major character in that first draft....

And, for a book, it's not all that shocking. Forbidden love has been a big theme in literature since forever. Is Jon/Arya worse than Nabokov's Lolita? GRRM never said he was writing a children's saga and we as readers, can make the difference between the societal norms of a fantasy novel and real world... not to mention, that marrying young was a part of medieval reality, too.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

ETA

Yes, a pale silver haired girl talking about air smelling sweet has nothing to do with an actual pale silvered haired girl seeing vision of air smelling sweetly. Both related to the same guy.

I looked into this more for you DragonDreamer. Instances of 'Sweet' and 'Sweetness'. There were over 800 references to sweet so forgive me for not going through all of them. Sweetness was more interesting.

Dany AGOT: She still ached after a long day's riding, yet somehow the pain had a SWEETNESS to it now, and each morning she came willingly to her saddle, eager to know what wonders waited for her in the lands ahead.

Sweetness here as pain

Ned AGOT: Ned took another swallow of milk, trying not to gag on the SWEETNESS of it.

Dany ADWD: (Dany offers someone something sweeter) SWEETNESS cloys.

Sweetness as something too much, overwhelming

Dany AGOT: (On Drogo's pyre) When she kissed him for the last time, Dany could taste the SWEETNESS of the oil on his lips.

Arya AFFC: (The Waif describing Sweetsleep which is referenced a lot in Sansa's storyline) Here, you can smell the SWEETNESS.

Arya ADWD: (The Kindly Man describes the Faceless Men) Death holds no SWEETNESS in this house.

Clearly a reference to Sweetness referring to death related to the three times Cersei's tone is described as poisonous sweetness. Its building up a picture of too much of a good thing. Perhaps the 'air filled with sweetness' is death? Jon is stabbed not long after the reference to the air being sweet. Jon is 'dead'.

Other instances include Tyrion describing vaginas and the sweetness of children.

[Greymoon]

I looked into this more for you DragonDreamer. Instances of 'Sweet' and 'Sweetness'. There were over 800 references to sweet so forgive me for not going through all of them. Sweetness was more interesting.

Dany AGOT: She still ached after a long day's riding, yet somehow the pain had a SWEETNESS to it now, and each morning she came willingly to her saddle, eager to know what wonders waited for her in the lands ahead.

Sweetness here as pain

Ned AGOT: Ned took another swallow of milk, trying not to gag on the SWEETNESS of it.

Dany ADWD: (Dany offers someone something sweeter) SWEETNESS cloys.

Sweetness as something too much, overwhelming

Dany AGOT: (On Drogo's pyre) When she kissed him for the last time, Dany could taste the SWEETNESS of the oil on his lips.

Arya AFFC: (The Waif describing Sweetsleep which is referenced a lot in Sansa's storyline) Here, you can smell the SWEETNESS.

Arya ADWD: (The Kindly Man describes the Faceless Men) Death holds no SWEETNESS in this house.

Clearly a reference to Sweetness referring to death related to the three times Cersei's tone is described as poisonous sweetness. Its building up a picture of too much of a good thing. Perhaps the 'air filled with sweetness' is death? Jon is stabbed not long after the reference to the air being sweet. Jon is 'dead'.

Other instances include Tyrion describing vaginas and the sweetness of children.

sweet pain, sweet death, sweet sorrow, bitter sweet, sickly sweet, sweet agony etc. etc. are common oxymorons...I don't think it necessary to look any further. By association, sweetness is often used to say pleasurable, or sorrowful or benevolent, or sweet...these meanings depend on the context in which the word is used....GRRM's use of 'sweet' does no strike me as particularly different from that of other authors...

[lojzelote]

I'm ok with Jon/Arya. Like I posted earlier, I'm not certain GRRM will go that way anymore, but if he does, he'll do it brilliantly... I mean, it was the first romance he had planned apparently, from the very beginning...he's invested quite a bit in these two characters. and he seems fond of Arya especially. She was a major character in that first draft....

And, for a book, it's not all that shocking. Forbidden love has been a big theme in literature since forever. Is Jon/Arya worse than Nabokov's Lolita? GRRM never said he was writing a children's saga and we as readers, can make the difference between the societal norms of a fantasy novel and real world... not to mention, that marrying young was a part of medieval reality, too.

I have never read Lolita, but if I imagine that it would depend on two factors:

1, did Hubert raise his stepdaughter since infancy

2, and did Nabokov condone his actions?

I'm all for Jon/Arya if it's portrayed as a fucked up relationship. Or perhaps if it was done in an Oedipus Rex fashion and they didn't recognize each other. But really, even if Arya was wearing a Faceless Men mask or something, I would have a hard time to believe that she wouldn't recognize him. He was almost grown when they separated and if Craster's reaction is anything to go by, those long Stark faces are kinda distinctive. ;)

I don't believe that two siblings can meet after a three/four years long separation and fall in love when they find out one of them was adopted, unless the dymanics in their family had been super messed up. Such a discovery woudn't make them out of sudden strangers any more than it would make Arya and Jon cousins.

Personally I'm not so sure I will like what he writes whatever it is. For one, the Dany/Drogo relationship which has been noted above has always made me feel uncomfortable, and if one searches through this forum, they will find a number of threads where many people critize his portrayal of their relationship because they see it as a case of Stockholm Syndrome, rather than a healthy, genuine love story.

To be brutally honest, this potential storyline reminds me a bit of fanfic writers, who just have to transform every deep, meaningful relationship into a romance. (I will never forget my shock when as a thirteen years old internet virgin I had first tried to find other fans of Supernatural on the net and visited a fanfiction site dedicated to that series.... and to Dean/Sam in particular... that experience scarred me for life, I tell ya.) But I keep hoping George has grown wiser since then. If not, then I can do nothing about it, except to disagree with his views.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

sweet pain, sweet death, sweet sorrow, bitter sweet, sickly sweet, sweet agony etc. etc. are common oxymorons...I don't think it necessary to look any further. By association, sweetness is often used to say pleasurable, or sorrowful or benevolent, or sweet...these meanings depend on the context in which the word is used....GRRM's use of 'sweet' does no strike me as particularly different from that of other authors...

I was saying that GRRM overuses the word sweet, there are loads of references to sweetness throughout the series to really make a connection between 2 specific ones. I thought I was a bit dismissive to the poster though so I took some time to have a look in to it. The references to sweetness and death are interesting specifically the one on Drogos pyre because she talks about a wedding at the pyre and she senses sweetness at the house when being told she is 'Bride of Fire'.

'The flames writhe before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing. this is a wedding, too, she thought'

That is the only place where sweetness, bride and fire intersect and it relates to death. Anyway, I got them for Dragondreamer, they can be used how they see fit.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I'm all for Jon/Arya if it's portrayed as a fucked up relationship. Or perhaps if it was done in an Oedipus Rex fashion and they didn't recognize each other. But really, even if Arya was wearing a Faceless Men mask or something, I would have a hard time to believe that she wouldn't recognize him. He was almost grown when they separated and if Craster's reaction is anything to go by, those long Stark faces are kinda distinctive. ;)

Mind you, fucked up doesn't mean destructive or toxic. Them being fucked up by their life experiences could be the reason for being attracted to the person they grew up as sibling. It doesn't mean that the relationship must necessarily end up in tragedy or be otherwise unhealthy.

Also, I do not believe it would be a literal Oedipus analogy. Yes, Stark features are Stark :). And, it kinda render all the pre-existing feelings for each other pointless. If they fall in love, IMO, it will be because of what relationship they had before, not inspite of.

Oedipus complex, on the other hand... ;)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I wonder if Howland Reed has the Knight of the Laughing tree armour stashed. Arya is nearing Lyanna's Harrenhal age and her doppleganger. There cant be much armour around to fit a woman. Now that is Oedipal!