Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

'Arya never seemed to find the places she set out to reach.'

We know George, we know

I have to agree with this mostly, but I still do not think Jon's most important relationship with a female in his life will turn out to be non sexual when they are suspiciously not real siblings.

Put it this way, if its revealed that Jon is in love with his 'sister' that is one of the passages that will be pointed out as having 'shown us all along'.

Now, getting into sex is more complex. I think Jon has a lot of sexual issues. His self imposed celibacy caused by his life as a bastard and his comparisons of potential and actual sexual partners to his sister are of a psych nature. I don't think he is consciously putting Arya in a sexual perspective, that doesn't happen until the marriage letter forces him to think about it. Ramsey being a monster muddles the issue. I never get the impression Jon would be happy with Arya's future husband. He couldn't imagine Arya in a wedding outfit but he knew all along, despite her protests that she would have to marry right? Did he think she would always be his 'Little Sister'?

[Ice Turtle]

A few comments on Tyrion and Arya. I've longed wanted to see those two interact. The dialogue will be epic and I can easily see how Tyrion would be thrown completely off balance and fall head over heals for her. Tyrion won't even be able to tell even little white lies to her, his quips will be answered by even sharper ones, she would call him on all his bullshit and threats, boasts and provocations would fall on unimpressed ears. Yes, Tyrion would be whipped.

There would be hardly any champion for this aspect of the story and I need to give myself a break for 2000-3000 words long posts but there are at least four quotes which come to mind:

Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled. The sound hung over the castle like a flag of mourning.

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

Arya is the only owner of wolf pack in Seven Kingdoms.

“A very skilled assassin.”

“There are such. I used to dream that one day I’d be rich enough to send a Faceless Man after my sweet sister.”

“Another name? Oh, certainly. And when the Faceless Men come to kill me, I’ll say, ‘No, you have the wrong man, I’m a different dwarf with a hideous facial scar.’” Both Lannisters laughed at the absurdity of it all.

Tyrion reflecting on Faceless men.

Tyrion had hoped for both Stark girls, but he supposed one would have to do.

And reflecting on the Stark girls:)

I would like to see them interact too. The two people I want Arya to interact the most are Tyrion and Jaime

[Ice Turtle]

We know George, we knowRamsey being a monster muddles the issue. I never get the impression Jon would be happy with Arya's future husband. He couldn't imagine Arya in a wedding outfit but he knew all along, despite her protests that she would have to marry right? Did he think she would always be his 'Little Sister'?

He thinks about it in AGOT, but on the other hand one of my little crackpots is that his irrational dislike for sweet Tommen comes from the fact that he was paired with Arya during feast.

[Han Snow]

He couldn't imagine Arya in a wedding outfit but he knew all along, despite her protests that she would have to marry right? Did he think she would always be his 'Little Sister'

Whose TRUE home is by HIS side? That is another weird thought Jon has.

It's not Winterfell, it's by his side.

Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl.

[lojzelote]

If you read the outline again, turning away from Arya when she is in need happens before the 'realisation' that she is in love with him. It doesn't say when Jon realises it. Plus, that was meant to be in the 1st third of the story but its now pushed back. So he will likely be out of his vows before he meets her again anyway and the arc planned for book 2 and 3 between them is still to come.

Essentially I believe Jon/Arya/Tyrion has become Jon/FArya/Ramsey. And FArya is being used primarily as a way of showing the reader how much Jon cares about the real thing. He's going to slaughter Ramsey, a dark reflection of himself hopefully. Jon may not learn 'Arya' is fake until real Arya tells him.

Yes, I read that outline. That outline also states that Dany will kill Drogo in vengeance for Viserys. The canon characters feel differently from their outline selves.

Look, Jon's not in love with Arya. He loves her deeply, but he's not in love with her. This may help.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Yes, I read that outline. That outline also states that Dany will kill Drogo in vengeance for Viserys. The canon characters feel differently from their outline selves.

Look, Jon's not in love with Arya. He loves her deeply, but he's not in love with her. This may help.

I'm aware of different kinds of love but thanks for the condescension.

Last I checked Drogo was still dead regardless of Dany's motivation and she killed him. Drogo still killed Viserys. So do you think the skeleton of the story is largely working towards the same ends? Why do you think one emotional change means that there has been emotional shifts everywhere? How do you reconcile your perception of the Arya/Jon relationship with the blatant foreshadowing in AGOT? Where do you pinpoint GRRM to change his mind in the text and why do you feel that? Nobody has been able to answer that yet.

[The Sleeper]

Yes, I read that outline. That outline also states that Dany will kill Drogo in vengeance for Viserys. The canon characters feel differently from their outline selves.

Look, Jon's not in love with Arya. He loves her deeply, but he's not in love with her. This may help.

I haven't read the outline and I'm not sure I want to, but from what I've gleaned from the bits and pieces in various posts it seems that the characters were outlines themselves and their evolution during the actual writing have taken them very different places.

The more I think about Jon & Arya, however, the more it takes some very ominous undertones. Thinking of their respective characters as they are now, there is the question if they would like each other as people if they had not been family before. I have a hard time reconciling Jon humanitarianism with Arya's utter ruthlessness, for instance. and what would Arya think of her brother actions and thoughts and feelings? I can't help but think that Arya in Jon's place would have dealt with his problems in a much more underhanded and final way. They do have common ground, but also very different outlooks on life. And yet there is a gravitational pull to a potential relationship. They are in isolation emotionally and are drawing deeper. If they meet before the pattern they could click together whereupon there would be nobody else for them, as any other potential relationship would be overshadowed and smothered by the connection they have.

[lojzelote]

I'm aware of different kinds of love but thanks for the condescension.

Last I checked Drogo was still dead regardless of Dany's motivation. Drogo still killed Viserys. So do you think the skeleton of the story is largely working towards the same ends? How do you reconcile your perception of the Arya/Jon relationship with the blatant foreshadowing in AGOT? Where do you pinpoint GRRM to change his mind in the text and why do you feel that? Nobody has been able to answer that yet.

I felt it is something I must do since it seemed to me you don't get the difference. Because otherwise I don't understand how you can think that he's in love with his nine years old sister just because he's afraid for her and wishes she was with him in safety again. The last time he saw her she was nine and he still thinks of her as a little girl.

The context makes all the difference. It's like manslaughter vs murder, love-making vs random one-night stand vs rape, etc.

That foreshadowing doesn't have to be foreshadowing at all. The only thing which is somewhat solid is Ned's line about Arya marrying a king, but for all we know, she may marry some other king or 'king', because truly I have trouble imagining that Jon would be able to marry for love his first cousin if he became king. Unless his family situation with the Starks is totally scheisse at that point, any other marriage would be more advantageous in a post-war, fragile Westeros.

But hey, I've seen some speculation that a fraction in the Riverlands might crown Gendry similarly to as some Targ bastards were crowned during the Dance of the Dragons, so as a Gendrya shipper, perhaps there's your chance. :P

ETA: And of course there's also the killjoy possibilty that he changed his mind eventually, in which case I hope he changed it sooner rather than later because it would give him much more space to prepare the ground for a new endgame.

[bemused]

Where do you pinpoint GRRM to change his mind in the text and why do you feel that? Nobody has been able to answer that yet.

If George has changed his mind, I very much doubt he'd let it become obvious in the text. After all, it wasn't obvious in AGoT that (at that time) he intended their relationship to eventually be sexual. So the fact that none of us can pinpoint where he changed his mind is not proof that he hasn't changed his mind.

[Arya Targaryen]

If George has changed his mind, I very much doubt he'd let it become obvious in the text. After all, it wasn't obvious in AGoT that (at that time) he intended their relationship to eventually be sexual. So the fact that none of us can pinpoint where he changed his mind is not proof that he hasn't changed his mind.

Even as an Arya/Jon shipper, I have to agree with that. I doubt we can pinpoint where exactly GRRM gave it up, if he ever did. All we can do is to look for clues, and if we find even more in TWOW, then it's still there.

I'm of the opinion that he will still go there, in a way, or leave it open in the end, if that's how he imagined his story in the beginning.

I felt it is something I must do since it seemed to me you don't get the difference. Because otherwise I don't understand how you can think that he's in love with his nine years old sister just because he's afraid for her and wishes she was with him in safety again. The last time he saw her she was nine and he still thinks of her as a little girl.

The context makes all the difference. It's like manslaughter vs murder, love-making vs random one-night stand vs rape, etc.

That foreshadowing doesn't have to be foreshadowing at all. The only thing which is somewhat solid is Ned's line about Arya marrying a king, but for all we know, she may marry some other king or 'king', because truly I have trouble imagining that Jon would be able to marry for love his first cousin if he became king. Unless his family situation with the Starks is totally scheisse at that point, any other marriage would be more advantageous in a post-war, fragile Westeros.

But hey, I've seen some speculation that a fraction in the Riverlands might crown Gendry similarly to as some Targ bastards were crowned during the Dance of the Dragons, so as a Gendrya shipper, perhaps there's your chance. :P

ETA: And of course there's also the killjoy possibilty that he changed his mind eventually, in which case I hope he changed it sooner rather than later because it would give him much more space to prepare the ground for a new endgame.

This is something that is brought up frequently, and I never understood it how can anyone misinterpret so much these clues. Of course, Jon is not in love with his nine-year-old sister. That would be creepy. But the nature of their sibling love is such, and is described in a way by GRRM that suggests to the reader that something may happen later on. Ned's line is not foreshadowing because he wanted Arya to marry Jon. It is foreshadowing because Ned didn't really have any reason to say those exact words in-story, but GRRM still chose him to say them.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

3)Read this:

'Jon felt as stiff as a man of sixty years. Dark dreams he thought, and guilt. His thoughts kept returning to Arya. There is no way I can help her. I put all kin aside when I said my words. If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him it was no concern of his. Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard's heart. He'd had Mikken make a sword for Arya once, a bravo's blade, made small to fit her hand. Needle. He wondered if she still had it. Stick them with the pointy end, he'd told her, but if she tried to stick the Bastard it could mean her life.

"Snow" muttered Lord Mormont's raven "Snow, Snow"

Suddenly he could not suffer it a moment longer.

...

Mully and Kegs stood inside the doors, leaning on their spears. "A cruel cold out there m'lord" warned Mully through his tangled orange beard. "Will you be out long?"

"No, I just need a breath of fresh air." Jon stepped out into the night.'

This is a very nice passage for two reasons IMO:

First, the first bolded, is the true and definite answer to whether Jon is going out of the line in regards to Arya: he is. Not because "the Watch takes no part", this can bent, but for the double standards that Jon sees and aknowledges, and that a leader must do what he expects his men to do.

Second, the Bastard, with capital B. This is used for Jon too. It initiates the "clash of the Bastards" theme that's central in Jon's ADWD arc and leads to his death.

And, in relevance, I agree ith the following. Yes, Ramsey flays and tortures! Why it's the idea of Arya in his bed that sticks in his mind? And why not spare a thought for the similar situation of Sansa's forced mariage?

Now, getting into sex is more complex. I think Jon has a lot of sexual issues. His self imposed celibacy caused by his life as a bastard and his comparisons of potential and actual sexual partners to his sister are of a psych nature. I don't think he is consciously putting Arya in a sexual perspective, that doesn't happen until the marriage letter forces him to think about it. Ramsey being a monster muddles the issue. I never get the impression Jon would be happy with Arya's future husband. He couldn't imagine Arya in a wedding outfit but he knew all along, despite her protests that she would have to marry right? Did he think she would always be his 'Little Sister'?

To me, (and various excerpts from ADWD add to the feeling) it feels like it is more a matter of possessiveness from his part (which btw I do find somewhat disturbing) and that's something that easily turns to sexual.

Yes, I read that outline. That outline also states that Dany will kill Drogo in vengeance for Viserys. The canon characters feel differently from their outline selves.

Look, Jon's not in love with Arya. He loves her deeply, but he's not in love with her. This may help.

I don't think that anyone suggests that Jon is currently having a sexual attraction for his (absent, anyway) little sister. Nor that any existing feeling pointing to that potential direction is of conscious level. But rather, that the text of the books (not any outline) provides all the groundwork to develop one in the future and possible bits of foreshadowing that the author plans (still!) to go there.

So, there has been a letter outlining the original draft of ASoIaF prior to the publication of GoT, and that letter describes a future romance between Jon & Arya. Huh. Missed that.

From what I gather from various posts on this thread, that outline was the very first seed of the story and if some events still took place, it seems that the story has been greatly expanded and the story arcs radically changed. It also reveals that I had seriously underestimated how much of a gardener Martin is. He has had to plant new seeds to cover the plots he wanted. It also gives me the idea that the various "proxy Aryas" that have been noted are scenes where Arya was supposed to have been but had other plans. Apparently, not even the author can get her to behave.

About the relationship, I'm not sure what to think. I have been vehemently against it, but after Ice Turtle's compilation, I'm forced to admit that it makes a kind of sense. They had been each others confidants and even in their mutual absence have been an anchor of familial memories in radical new circumstances. They have both been set on their own and been forced to make a break with any conventions that governed their previous lives and both are profoundly lonely, which would lead them to adopt an "us against the world attitude". At the same time they have come such a long way as characters a reunion would in some ways be like a new acquaintance. Jon would be shocked and overwhelmed by the new Arya, being simultaneously proud, relieved, sad, angry, guilty and horrified, while for Arya Jon would simply be Jon and wouldn't care how he's changed.

I'm not entirely comfortable with it, but maybe that is a good thing. It certainly has potential. Agewise, with another year and a half of story time he should be in the clear (by ASoIaF of course). That said, plotwise, it is difficult to see how and where the reunion would take place as they have drifted far apart and it is difficult to see how it might come together.

A few comments on Tyrion and Arya. I've longed wanted to see those two interact. The dialogue will be epic and I can easily see how Tyrion would be thrown completely off balance and fall head over heals for her. Tyrion won't even be able to tell even little white lies to her, his quips will be answered by even sharper ones, she would call him on all his bullshit and threats, boasts and provocations would fall on unimpressed ears. Yes, Tyrion would be whipped.

The outline is interesting in seeing the writing and thought process of a "gardener" writer and how various ideas develop into actual stories, changing details or even context but remaining there in a way. If you've read interviews where Martin describes his writing and the difficulties he has faced, it's actually very consistent with the reality as it reflects in the same/different relation between draft and books. I was actually quite impressed by his sincerity in these matters. Yea, he's too much of a gardener...

Re radical new circumstances, I think that in Jon's thoughts on Arya throughout ADWD the author really pushes the idea that Jon knows nothing of what person Arya is now; the contrast to what he thinks with what the reader knows is sharp and hammered down into the reader's head as shown in the quotes that Ice Turtle had the patience to gather. Arya is not, indeed, a child: like Val, she slit a guard's throat to escape (only, Arya was successful); she squired, of sorts, for none else than the Hound; she has worked manually, participated in battle, killed her first at nine, ffs... and she already is in Braavos, paying for her needs on her own, by the iron price quite literally... I think you nailed it on how Jon would feel about it.

On Tyrion

If her interactions with Bobono are anything to go by, it promises a lot of fun.

By the way, it seems that GRRM inserted there a nod to his original 'Tyrion infatuated with Arya' idea

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I also wanted to comment on this:

“Some will tell you that they are demons. They say the pack is led by a monstrous she-wolf, a stalking shadow grim and grey and huge. They will tell you that she has been known to bring aurochs down all by herself, that no trap nor snare can hold her, that she fears neither steel nor fire, slays any wolf that tries to mount her, and devours no other flesh but man.”

Given the rules of a pack hierarchy (fixed quite strictly, as is normal for animal scieties) Nymeria allowing a wolf to mount her would equal to give away her leadership role. Because Nymeria has taken for her self the role of alfa male.

Nymeria thinks of her packmates as brothers and sisters ("fierce and terrible and hers" - btw Jon describes Ghost as fierce and terrible, it's just before he finds the obsidian stuff) but Ghost (and Summer) think of them in a "haughty" way, as "small grey cousins". That's enough of a reason that Nymeria will never accept a common wolf as her mate, but also she likes her leader role and won't let it... But, early in AGOT we are informed that the hierarchy order between Ghost and Nymeria is already settled: Nymeria would follow Ghost.

Now, why do we need to he informed about Nymeria's sexual behaviour? I think we are meant to keep a tab on such details and to put them together either in advance or with hindsight. Nymeria anf Ghost are the alfas of the still living members of the initial direwolf pack. Does it mean something for their humans? I think it's very possible.

[lojzelote]

This is something that is brought up frequently, and I never understood it how can anyone misinterpret so much these clues. Of course, Jon is not in love with his nine-year-old sister. That would be creepy. But the nature of their sibling love is such, and is described in a way by GRRM that suggests to the reader that something may happen later on. Ned's line is not foreshadowing because he wanted Arya to marry Jon. It is foreshadowing because Ned didn't really have any reason to say those exact words in-story, but GRRM still chose him to say them.

This is a very nice passage for two reasons IMO:

First, the first bolded, is the true and definite answer to whether Jon is going out of the line in regards to Arya: he is. Not because "the Watch takes no part", this can bent, but for the double standards that Jon sees and aknowledges, and that a leader must do what he expects his men to do.

Second, the Bastard, with capital B. This is used for Jon too. It initiates the "clash of the Bastards" theme that's central in Jon's ADWD arc and leads to his death.

And, in relevance, I agree ith the following. Yes, Ramsey flays and tortures! Why it's the idea of Arya in his bed that sticks in his mind? And why not spare a thought for the similar situation of Sansa's forced mariage?

To me, (and various excerpts from ADWD add to the feeling) it feels like it is more a matter of possessiveness from his part (which btw I do find somewhat disturbing) and that's something that easily turns to sexual.

I don't think that anyone suggests that Jon is currently having a sexual attraction for his (absent, anyway) little sister. Nor that any existing feeling pointing to that potential direction is of conscious level. But rather, that the text of the books (not any outline) provides all the groundwork to develop one in the future and possible bits of foreshadowing that the author plans (still!) to go there.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood ANV's posts, but from the bold parts I got that he's secretly in love with her but doesn't realize it. :dunno:

Anyway I think you're in fact arguing for it, too, Shadow. If you're arguing that he's possessive of her at this stage and it's a sign of a future sexual relationship, you're kinda arguing that he has hidden sexual feelings for a girl last saw when she was nine.

As for why the image of Arya in Ramsay's bed would disturb him, it's easy - her low age and Ramsay's brutality, just as you say. That image is horrifying enough; remember Theon's thought when he sees poor scared, fragile Jeyne naked? "Real Arya would have been even younger."

The best explanation I have for his nonreaction to Tyrion/Sansa is that he still sees Tyrion as his pal who's different from the other Lannisters and certainly not a Ramsay. Also - but that may be controversial, I realize - I don't think he really cares for Sansa all that much.

If you read the outline again, turning away from Arya when she is in need happens before the 'realisation' that she is in love with him. It doesn't say when Jon realises it. Plus, that was meant to be in the 1st third of the story but its now pushed back. So he will likely be out of his vows before he meets her again anyway and the arc planned for book 2 and 3 between them is still to come.

Essentially I believe Jon/Arya/Tyrion has become Jon/FArya/Ramsey. And FArya is being used primarily as a way of showing the reader how much Jon cares about the real thing. He's going to slaughter Ramsey, a dark reflection of himself hopefully. Jon may not learn 'Arya' is fake until real Arya tells him.

Put it this way, if its revealed that Jon is in love with his 'sister' that is one of the passages that will be pointed out as having 'shown us all along'.

Now, getting into sex is more complex. I think Jon has a lot of sexual issues. His self imposed celibacy caused by his life as a bastard and his comparisons of potential and actual sexual partners to his sister are of a psych nature. I don't think he is consciously putting Arya in a sexual perspective, that doesn't happen until the marriage letter forces him to think about it. Ramsey being a monster muddles the issue. I never get the impression Jon would be happy with Arya's future husband. He couldn't imagine Arya in a wedding outfit but he knew all along, despite her protests that she would have to marry right? Did he think she would always be his 'Little Sister'?

[Mithras]

Now, why do we need to he informed about Nymeria's sexual behaviour?

I think that is because of the warg connection. Nymeria is physically ready to mate but Arya didnot hit the puberty yet. So, Nymeria feels like she is not ready to mate, because some part of Arya reeks into her.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood ANV's posts, but from the bold parts I got that he's secretly in love with her but doesn't realize it. :dunno:

Anyway I think you're in fact arguing for it, too, Shadow. If you're arguing that he's possessive of her at this stage and it's a sign of a future sexual relationship, you're kinda arguing that he has hidden sexual feelings for a girl last saw when she was nine.

No, I don't think it's the same at all. Mothers can also be possessive of their children (and that's not a good thing), but it is not sexual. At this stage Jon does not have sexual feelings for a little girl who is absent. I am arguing that possessiveness -which is not sexual per se- can easily transform into sexual feelings but that's something that can only happen provided that the two meet again and ineract under the radically new context. As it is now, Jon's (and Arya's) feelings and thoughts for each other are "frozen" to the point they were separated. They haven't developped, as the way they view each other hasn't developped. For Jon, Arya is still nine. That's what I've also said in my post, that she'll be quite a shock to him when they meet again, that's a contrast made very clear in ADWD.

ETA - I forgot to address this:

As for why the image of Arya in Ramsay's bed would disturb him, it's easy - her low age and Ramsay's brutality, just as you say. That image is horrifying enough; remember Theon's thought when he sees poor scared, fragile Jeyne naked? "Real Arya would have been even younger."

The best explanation I have for his nonreaction to Tyrion/Sansa is that he still sees Tyrion as his pal who's different from the other Lannisters and certainly not a Ramsay. Also - but that may be controversial, I realize - I don't think he really cares for Sansa all that much.

I disagree that he doesn't care about Sansa - granted, not as much as he cares for Arya, but he does. She is, too, in his thoughts when he decides what to do with the pink letter. And no matter what he thinks of Tyrion, it's the Lannisters that forced her into marriage, a quite abhorrent one at that for sure.

No, I think that the contrast is on purpose but, again, it's a matter of where the author choses to focus, not why the character Jon thinks what he does or he doesn't think.

edit: (really bad) spelling

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think that is because of the warg connection. Nymeria is physically ready to mate but Arya didnot hit the puberty yet. So, Nymeria feels like she is not ready to mate, because some part of Arya reeks into her.

The question remains. Why do we need this information? We know that about Arya from other sources. Why is it important to know about Nymeria?

[Mithras]

The question remains. Why do we need this information? We know that about Arya from other sources. Why is it important to know about Nymeria?

George never explicitly stated that the demonlike she-wolf leading that giant pack is Nymeria. So, this information might serve as solid proofs of that wolf being really Nymeria whose fate was unknown to us. We know that Arya killed a boy when he grabbed her and she does not like being grabbed. So, the giant she-wolf slaying the male wolves that try to mount her is a projection of Arya. And another example is of course the pervert Bobono and Mercy.

I think Arya's hitting the puberty must be a big thing for George because we see such lines in Mercy too ("I'll grow titties in a year or two ...", kissing like an eel etc.)

As Cat of the Canals, Arya was spending lots of time in a brothel and speaking with prostitues but she never had any thoughts regarding sex at such a place. The sailors from Westeros asked her where the brothels are and Arya didnot understand the sexual innuendo.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

^Mithras, I think you're underestimating the hierarchy dynamics in canine packs and the symbolic (as well) role of mounting in the power play.

[lojzelote]

I think that is because of the warg connection. Nymeria is physically ready to mate but Arya didnot hit the puberty yet. So, Nymeria feels like she is not ready to mate, because some part of Arya reeks into her.

Hey! For the first time in forever, we agree on something. :)

No, I don't think it's the same at all. Mothers can also be possessive of their children (and that's not a good thing), but it is not sexual. At this stage Jon does not have sexual feelings for a little girl who is absent. I am arguing that possessiveness -which is not sexual per se- can easily transform into sexual feelings but that's something that can only happen provided that the two meet again and ineract under the radically new context. As it is now, Jon's (and Arya's) feelings and thoughts for each other are "frozen" to the point they where separated. They haven't developped, as the way they view each other hasn't developped. For Jon, Arya is still nine. That's what I've also said in my post, that she'll be quite a shock to him when they meet again, that's a contrast made very clear in ADWD.

Lol, I agree he's in for quite a shock, but I'm not sure if it would be enough to overcome their familial relationship, though. But, that's the whole debate as to whether George means to keep that part of the original part.

I think he's simply scared for her, not possessive of her. Like - since you're using mothers as an example - if my mother heard I've been kidnapped by a psycho rapist, she would want to get me back to safety not because she's possessive of me, but because she's scared what could happen to me.

Although there is that old trope about brothers being pissed at the boys who fancy their sister. A very nice example of that can be seen is season one, where Robb gives Joffrey such a filthy look when he catches Sansa watching him. :cool4: But no, I don't think that's the case here.

[The Sleeper]

I also wanted to comment on this:

“Some will tell you that they are demons. They say the pack is led by a monstrous she-wolf, a stalking shadow grim and grey and huge. They will tell you that she has been known to bring aurochs down all by herself, that no trap nor snare can hold her, that she fears neither steel nor fire, slays any wolf that tries to mount her, and devours no other flesh but man.”

Given the rules of a pack hierarchy (fixed quite strictly, as is normal for animal scieties) Nymeria allowing a wolf to mount her would equal to give away her leadership role. Because Nymeria has taken for her self the role of alfa male.

Nymeria thinks of her packmates as brothers and sisters ("fierce and terrible and hers" - btw Jon describes Ghost as fierce and terrible, it's just before he finds the obsidian stuff) but Ghost (and Summer) think of them in a "haughty" way, as "small grey cousins". That's enough of a reason that Nymeria will never accept a common wolf as her mate, but also she likes her leader role and won't let it... But, early in AGOT we are informed that the hierarchy order between Ghost and Nymeria is already settled: Nymeria would follow Ghost.

Now, why do we need to he informed about Nymeria's sexual behaviour? I think we are meant to keep a tab on such details and to put them together either in advance or with hindsight. Nymeria anf Ghost are the alfas of the still living members of the initial direwolf pack. Does it mean something for their humans? I think it's very possible.

I would like to take the opportunity on the potential dynamics between Jon and Arya, regardless of a sexual or platonic nature. If Martin intended Jon to be the prominent one as exemplified by the wolves, I hope that he realizes that the characters won't work that way anymore. Arya is the much more forceful personality and the more pragmatic one. In many ways she is the more mature one as well, having made hard choices and living through them. She is also the self-reliant one and much more in control of herself (almost inhumanly so). Jon maybe under the misapprehension that Arya would seek his protection; while Arya has always sought him, it was for acceptance and solace. In fact, I would expect to see a reversal of roles with Arya growing protective of Jon.