Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[Palestrina]

Such a long time since my last visit here.

Hello gang!

I randomly visited to ask a completely different question and I stumbled upon your thread.

The original post was a good read.

Yet, I was always convinced Arya will become Jon Snow’s Nissa Nissa, nay? It may sound silly, but I was sure this was an R+L sort of twist, the secret of Polichinelle 2.0 so to speak. Now that I think of it though, I am less confident that my opinion is shared by… anyone ahem. I admit I do not remember anyone else mentioning it sigh.

EDIT But, seriously, isn’t she? The whole point of her journey is to end up a specter of death and naturally evolve into a (THE) dreaded agent of Ice against Fire in my opinion. An enemy whom Jon will have to confront and murder and, thus, due to his pure, anguished brotherly love for her, his sword will be purified into Azor Ahai’s Lightbringer etc. etc.

Oh well.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I don't understand about what you're saying about Jon and Ygritte?

Like I said, Ice Turtle will come up with the parallel quotes later and I don't want to step on toes.

Very simply Gendry and Ygritte are the first time either Arya or Jon have taken a significant romantic interest in another person. Jon abstained for fear of fathering bastards, Arya was too young and is only just entering puberty. So while I prefer Arya and Gendry, they may be as doomed as Jon and Ygritte in a First Love type way.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

What will happen Bran according to Bran the Blessed story I hope he survie in the end of story ....

In the story of Bran the Blessed, he and his half-brother fight an army of undead (well, actually they're warriors who are revived again and again by a magic cauldron that was in fact give to them by the Blessed as a gift). His half-brother hides among the piles of dead so that he is also taken to the cauldron, and then destroys it from within, dying in the process.

If Jon's human body will be dead while he wargs Ghost (like his brother, the name of his direwolf is the last word he says), and the Wall falls because the Nights Watch "no longer stands true" like according to Old Nan, (more likely, it falls cause the wildlings turn on the remaining black brothers cause they also fear betrayal), then that gives Jon his chance to strike right at the Heart of Winter.

Bran the Blessed lives in the story however.

The problem with this is that it requires Jon to be in Ghost for an absurd of time. Like, how long will this process of the Wall falling take? Does he hang out in amongst the rubble waiting for Dany and her dragons? How does he eat, survive? What about Melisandre?

There's also the complications of Bran returning through Gorne's Way to Winterfell (there's hundreds o' caves under these hills and they all connect."), Arya needing to reunite with Jon and Nymeria for the sake of narrative catharsis, and the fact that at least the Liddles know that Bran is alive because one of their own met him in the Cave. He was a boy who couldn't use his legs and had a direwolf with him. Doesn't take a genius to work it out.

That doesn't mean that the parallels won't work or that GRRM can't make it work, but it'll be complicated somewhat.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Like I said, Ice Turtle will come up with the parallel quotes later and I don't want to step on toes.

Very simply Gendry and Ygritte are the first time either Arya or Jon have taken a significant romantic interest in another person. Jon abstained for fear of fathering bastards, Arya was too young and is only just entering puberty. So while I prefer Arya and Gendry, they may be as doomed as Jon and Ygritte in a First Love type way.

ohhhh....you mean a parallel!

I'm not a committed shipper, but I think we are running out of time that. Arya is foreshadowed to go so many places, and there war has to be fought and resolved in the space of two books. Merited, they're won't be many POV's left by ADOS so we'll really be down to the Big 6: Jon, Tyrion and Dany (who I'd bet money will all die in the climax, and even if Jon we're to live he would choose to lead the New Night's Watch), Bran, Arya and Sansa.

Arya has a lot to do in the next two books: tells us all the secrets of the FM, leave Braavos, reunite with Nymeria and give her mother the gift of Mercy that she desperately deserves, lead the wolf pack, reunite with Gendry and even have a romance with him (which I'm guessing will only be strongly implied cause while Dany was 13 too, I think GRRM might hold back on this), deal with an ice zombie invasion, ideally reuniting with Bran in Winterfell to do so because what better way to deal with wights than to eat them when there's only so many arrows and not much fire. Ravens also, have been show to eat wights and just for sake of narrative catharsis reunite with Jon also.

And there's probably more that I haven't gotten to yet.

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings either, but I do believe that its out.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I am really not confident it is out, Ice Turtle will show you how these references continue throughout the series. I think Arya will get to Jon on schedule. I think Braavos in the structure of the books was a bit of a side story, which is why it only has 5 chapters in the last 2 books combined. Arya needs to be somewhere while things are set up, somewhere that she can get some proper training. That would have been unseen at all in the 5 year gap. So I think we are on schedule for that reunion even if she goes to the Riverlands first. Dany has to have a whole Dance of Dragons, I think Arya can go the Riverlands and make it to the Wall.

Had Arya and Jon just met in the 6th/7th book I'd think it was dreadfully rushed. Its my 3rd main problem with the prospect of Jon/Dany. But GRRM having set up Jon and Arya's closeness and keeping us reminded of it is making it more believable. I believe the original term in the outline was 'tortured', I don't think Jon is tortured until the Pink Letter. But both of them desperately miss each other. There is also the prospect of 'A Time For Wolves', if that is the ending how does half Targ King Jon and Dragon Queen Dany fit in? That's a time for Dragons surely?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

ohhhh....you mean a parallel!

I'm not a committed shipper, but I think we are running out of time that. Arya is foreshadowed to go so many places, and there war has to be fought and resolved in the space of two books. Merited, they're won't be many POV's left by ADOS so we'll really be down to the Big 6: Jon, Tyrion and Dany (who I'd bet money will all die in the climax, and even if Jon we're to live he would choose to lead the New Night's Watch), Bran, Arya and Sansa.

Arya has a lot to do in the next two books: tells us all the secrets of the FM, leave Braavos, reunite with Nymeria and give her mother the gift of Mercy that she desperately deserves, lead the wolf pack, reunite with Gendry and even have a romance with him (which I'm guessing will only be strongly implied cause while Dany was 13 too, I think GRRM might hold back on this), deal with an ice zombie invasion, ideally reuniting with Bran in Winterfell to do so because what better way to deal with wights than to eat them when there's only so many arrows and not much fire. Ravens also, have been show to eat wights and just for sake of narrative catharsis reunite with Jon also.

And there's probably more that I haven't gotten to yet.

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings either, but I do believe that its out.

Arya has surely a lot to do, but the 'what' is not as certain as you present it. According to some readers, she has to go to Dany. I disagree, but that's not the point. I believe that such predictions have a lot to do with preferences --you think it's fitting and positive to have Arya kill Stoneheart, I personally don't like it-- but it could go either way. No strong text hints for either eventuality, no strong text hints to shut them out either.

Whatever the case, and irrespectively of whether the author finally droped the idea at some point (I don't think he did because hints still exist IMO in "The of Dance of the Dragons"), the author did plant certain phrases and parallels that may point to a future romantic relationship.Their current relationship is underlined and emphasized throughout all the books and it is clear that it goes beyond usual sibling love. Even if you exclude the possibility of a romance you have to admit that their existing bond is something extraordinary: his spiritual connection to his mother, I've seen it characterized, but it can't be so because Arya is not Lyanna reborn. So it's not something that will need to be developped, if the author goes there he only has to provide the catalyst for the chemical reaction, so to say.

That said, I am not fond of the relationship (though I really do dislike your favourite ship, sorry to say...). But I believe it is a very possible outcome (and I am getting used to it - after all, it all depends on how the author will write it, if).

edited because my keyboard hates me

[The_Noctua]

Even if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, it's incest, and incest is bad. But to be fair, this pairing would make a lot more sense from a romantic point of view than Jon x Dany.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Most romantic line in the books, no doubt and I don't even ship it.

What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?

Its the sister bit that is a problem

[persimmon234]

Also needle is the only thing she can't throw away to become 'no one'

[Ice Turtle]

Yet, I was always convinced Arya will become Jon Snow’s Nissa Nissa, nay? It may sound silly, but I was sure this was an R+L sort of twist, the secret of Polichinelle 2.0 so to speak. Now that I think of it though, I am less confident that my opinion is shared by… anyone ahem. I admit I do not remember anyone else mentioning it sigh.

EDIT But, seriously, isn’t she? The whole point of her journey is to end up a specter of death and naturally evolve into a (THE) dreaded agent of Ice against Fire in my opinion. An enemy whom Jon will have to confront and murder and, thus, due to his pure, anguished brotherly love for her, his sword will be purified into Azor Ahai’s Lightbringer etc. etc.

Oh well.

I am not a big fan of this theory, bu maybe only because I don't want it happen. As for Arya is isn't much associated with ice so far. I made a quick search and found at least three topic about possible Nissa Nissa:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/83801-your-guess-for-nissa-nissa/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89714-if-jon-snow-is-aa-who-is-his-nissa-nissa/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94571-who-is-nissa-nissa-reborn/

all from creative use of google: https://www.google.cz/search?q=arya+nissa+nissa+site:asoiaf.westero.org&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=-YXvVPfcLs72aM6OgagO#newwindow=1&q=arya+nissa+nissa+site:asoiaf.westeros.org

Though opinions are different you are not the only one suggesting Arya. Personally I am not sure there will be AA or Lightbringer as a literal sword but you are far from being only one suggesting Arya.

[Ice Turtle]

Like I said, Ice Turtle will come up with the parallel quotes later and I don't want to step on toes.

This is not strictly a reread so feel free to do so or refer to any parts of the books :) Yes, I will post it later in ACoK or ASoS summary, but there is no tragedy in repeating some things.

[JonSnow4President]

Even if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, it's incest, and incest is bad. But to be fair, this pairing would make a lot more sense from a romantic point of view than Jon x Dany.

First cousin incest is much more debatable than sister incest. Apparently, scientific studies are completely inconclusive about the increased risk of non-continuous first cousin marriages, and it's practiced in a large part of the developed world. Hell, it's legal in about a third of US states.

[Meemaw]

If the sword is real then Lightbringer needs to be found. When Arya first started with Syrio he made a comment of mentioning that she was a sword. Grrms first draft hinted that Needle is more then a toy sword. I don't think there needs to be a reforging of Lightbringer.

[The Bastard of Walton]

Such a long time since my last visit here.

Hello gang!

I randomly visited to ask a completely different question and I stumbled upon your thread.

The original post was a good read.

Yet, I was always convinced Arya will become Jon Snows Nissa Nissa, nay? It may sound silly, but I was sure this was an R+L sort of twist, the secret of Polichinelle 2.0 so to speak. Now that I think of it though, I am less confident that my opinion is shared by anyone ahem. I admit I do not remember anyone else mentioning it sigh.

EDIT But, seriously, isnt she? The whole point of her journey is to end up a specter of death and naturally evolve into a (THE) dreaded agent of Ice against Fire in my opinion. An enemy whom Jon will have to confront and murder and, thus, due to his pure, anguished brotherly love for her, his sword will be purified into Azor Ahais Lightbringer etc. etc.

Oh well.

For the majority of time I've been on the forum, I've always thought that both Jon & Dany are AA, ygritte & Drogo fulfilling the Nissa-Nissa part of the prophecy.

But with all the talk of the Arya/Jon love story recently I'm back on the fence.... Berics blood lighting the Sword makes me think maybe he & Stoneheart are carrying the ingredients to create Lightbringer.

Little theory..When Arya returns she is mortally wounded, so Stoneheart passes on to her the gift/curse of the second life, after a time Arya (the sister he loved) asks Jon to release her from it, Jon stabs her reigniting Lightbringer.

I know it's only in the show, but could be why the writers had that scene with Mel & Arya.

Not saying it plays out exactly like this, but glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks Arya being Nissa-Nissa is a possibility.

[The_Noctua]

First cousin incest is much more debatable than sister incest. Apparently, scientific studies are completely inconclusive about the increased risk of non-continuous first cousin marriages, and it's practiced in a large part of the developed world. Hell, it's legal in about a third of US states.

First cousin marriage it's still a bit 'ew' to me, but it could be because I am as close to my first cousins as if they were siblings.But, yeah, as long as they do not give birht to arrogant dragonlords or madmen, first cousins can marry too.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

For the majority of time I've been on the forum, I've always thought that both Jon & Dany are AA, ygritte & Drogo fulfilling the Nissa-Nissa part of the prophecy.

But with all the talk of the Arya/Jon love story recently I'm back on the fence.... Berics blood lighting the Sword makes me think maybe he & Stoneheart are carrying the ingredients to create Lightbringer.

Little theory..When Arya returns she is mortally wounded, so Stoneheart passes on to her the gift/curse of the second life, after a time Arya (the sister he loved) asks Jon to release her from it, Jon stabs her reigniting Lightbringer.

I know it's only in the show, but could be why the writers had that scene with Mel & Arya.

Not saying it plays out exactly like this, but glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks Arya being Nissa-Nissa is a possibility.

In the show, Mel was functioning as the Ghost of Heigh Heart in that scene. I don't think it has ant relevance to Arya = Nissa-Nissa theories.

But, if Arya is going to be Jon's Nissa-Nissa, he will use his other sword.

Given the subject of the thread, you will excuse a bad joke from my part, I hope :)

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Arya has surely a lot to do, but the 'what' is not as certain as you present it. According to some readers, she has to go to Dany. I disagree, but that's not the point. I believe that such predictions have a lot to do with preferences --you think it's fitting and positive to have Arya kill Stoneheart, I personally don't like it-- but it could go either way. No strong text hints for either eventuality, no strong text hints to shut them out either.

Whatever the case, and irrespectively of whether the author finally droped the idea at some point (I don't think he did because hints still exist IMO in "The of Dance of the Dragons"), the author did plant certain phrases and parallels that may point to a future romantic relationship.Their current relationship is underlined and emphasized throughout all the books and it is clear that it goes beyond usual sibling love. Even if you exclude the possibility of a romance you have to admit that their existing bond is something extraordinary: his spiritual connection to his mother, I've seen it characterized, but it can't be so because Arya is not Lyanna reborn. So it's not something that will need to be developped, if the author goes there he only has to provide the catalyst for the chemical reaction, so to say.

That said, I am not fond of the relationship (though I really do dislike your favourite ship, sorry to say...). But I believe it is a very possible outcome (and I am getting used to it - after all, it all depends on how the author will write it, if).

edited because my keyboard hates me

I don't have a favorite ship really?

I've read some Arya x Gendry and enjoyed them, and think it will be endgame, but I'm not really a shipper. I'm really just waiting to wave it outta the harbor.

But I'm wondering what you're referring to with the romantic undertones and the quotes? Explain. They've been referring to each other as brother and sister fairly consistently, and for them to meet each in the middle of the war and suddenly start having a sexual attraction is gonna feel really weird.

Notice how something towards the end of the proposal letter had been blacked out, meaning it was too important to risk, but the deal with the love triangle wasn't.

I'll admit that a lot of what I referred to was speculative foreshadowing, so we'll have to see how Arya's journey shakes out.

Arya and Gendry had a love song written for them, they wrestled each other on the floor until they're clothes were ripped, the fight over "ringing the girl's bells", and the whole deal with the "Wenda the White Fawn". That doesn't automatically negate Jon x Arya, but the fact that a romance with Gendry will has been prettily well set up and will eat up time in the narrative, for me means that all that has to go somewhere, and is there room for both? I'm not inclined to think so.

And to be honest, I'm not sure, even given GRRM's thing for incest, that he's gonna take it that far. Studies done on children raised closed together in the Jewish Kubutz show that they have no sexual attraction to each other even though they're not related; it causes they're brains to think of each other as siblings. So yes, this is a fictional world, and yes this fantasy, but the idea that suddenly the thinking of each other as brother and "little sister" goes away cause in the middle of this they learn they're actually cousins seems just really far out. It will also require GRRM to gross out the vast majority of his fandom with a relationship that is very deep, but reads as being almost entirely a familial one.

So I'm willing to give Ice Turtle a chance and let them do their thing, but when you add on top of if the parallels to Bran the Blessed that point to Jon's death at the climax of the story, and GRRM's "gardening approach" to writing, I think we can chalk up what we could read as romantic or sexual tones to being remnants of a plan that has since been scrapped.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

For the majority of time I've been on the forum, I've always thought that both Jon & Dany are AA, ygritte & Drogo fulfilling the Nissa-Nissa part of the prophecy.

But with all the talk of the Arya/Jon love story recently I'm back on the fence.... Berics blood lighting the Sword makes me think maybe he & Stoneheart are carrying the ingredients to create Lightbringer.

Little theory..When Arya returns she is mortally wounded, so Stoneheart passes on to her the gift/curse of the second life, after a time Arya (the sister he loved) asks Jon to release her from it, Jon stabs her reigniting Lightbringer.

I know it's only in the show, but could be why the writers had that scene with Mel & Arya.

Not saying it plays out exactly like this, but glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks Arya being Nissa-Nissa is a possibility.

I guess technically Jon doesn't have to make the sword. He isn't a blacksmith. It could be that its Ice. Ned was the water (Starks are Ice) killed by Payne with Ice, A Lannister may be killed with Widow's wail and Tyrion takes it North, Oathkeeper could kill Catelyn perhaps at Arya's hand? Arya killing her mother would have sufficient emotional turmoil for Nissa Nissa. Gendry will then reforge the two parts back into Ice and when Jon takes it against the others it lights up, Ice and Fire.

[The Bastard of Walton]

In the show, Mel was functioning as the Ghost of Heigh Heart in that scene. I don't think it has ant relevance to Arya = Nissa-Nissa theories.

But, if Arya is going to be Jon's Nissa-Nissa, he will use his other sword.

Given the subject of the thread, you will excuse a bad joke from my part, I hope :)

I've never made that connection to the ghost of high heart before! Gods can't believe I missed it.

Haha, bad jokes are the best jokes!

[The Bastard of Walton]

I guess technically Jon doesn't have to make the sword. He isn't a blacksmith. It could be that its Ice. Ned was the water (Starks are Ice) killed by Payne with Ice, A Lannister may be killed with Widow's wail and Tyrion takes it North, Oathkeeper could kill Catelyn perhaps at Arya's hand? Arya killing her mother would have sufficient emotional turmoil for Nissa Nissa. Gendry will then reforge the two parts back into Ice and when Jon takes it against the others it lights up, Ice and Fire.

I like this way. Especially the gendry bit, reforging Ice.