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Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)


Ice Turtle

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If the sword is real then Lightbringer needs to be found. When Arya first started with Syrio he made a comment of mentioning that she was a sword. Grrms first draft hinted that Needle is more then a toy sword. I don't think there needs to be a reforging of Lightbringer.

Of course it is more, it is her connection to Jon, to Winterfell, to the Old Gods.

“Go ahead, call me all the names you want,” Sansa said airily. “You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace.” She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

This one also struck me as a possible foreshadowing, or should I say, poetic justice? And Arya's wolf is named after a queen, Sansa's is (was) "just" a Lady.

About the closeness between Jon and Arya:

I've always felt that their relationship is a weird one. What kind of siblings finish each other's sentences? It is more of a soul mate- thing, not a brother-sister one. The only siblings I've ever seen doing that sort of stuff were identical twins. And I've known married couples who were that close - maybe that's why I think that finishing each other's sentences is pointing towards a possible romance.

I never considered Gendry as a serious love interest for Arya. I think his place in the narrative was that Arya needed someone to have some romance with, so that GRRM could put some Jon/Gendry comparison in there, just like he did some with Arya and Ygritte.

Studies done on children raised closed together in the Jewish Kubutz show that they have no sexual attraction to each other even though they're not related; it causes they're brains to think of each other as siblings. So yes, this is a fictional world, and yes this fantasy, but the idea that suddenly the thinking of each other as brother and "little sister" goes away cause in the middle of this they learn they're actually cousins seems just really far out. It will also require GRRM to gross out the vast majority of his fandom with a relationship that is very deep, but reads as being almost entirely a familial one.

This one is frequently brought up. And even if there is psycholocical effect of being raised together, it is certainly not a rule without exceptions. In the original draft, Jon and Arya were supposed to fall in love despite they were raised together and still thinking they are siblings. I didn't know it before, but learnt in another thread recently that Aerys' parents were also brother and sister, and Egg most certainly never wanted them to end up together, he even separaated them when he noticed the signs. But they still fell in love and married secretly. Rickard and his cousin also was supposed to grow up together, being cousins. And had 4 children. And I'm sure there is more. So why not Jon and Arya?

I honestly think that being apart for the crucial years of hitting puberty, will be enough to consider them "not growing up together".

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I don't have a favorite ship really?

I've read some Arya x Gendry and enjoyed them, and think it will be endgame, but I'm not really a shipper. I'm really just waiting to wave it outta the harbor.

But I'm wondering what you're referring to with the romantic undertones and the quotes? Explain. They've been referring to each other as brother and sister fairly consistently, and for them to meet each in the middle of the war and suddenly start having a sexual attraction is gonna feel really weird.

Notice how something towards the end of the proposal letter had been blacked out, meaning it was too important to risk, but the deal with the love triangle wasn't.

I'll admit that a lot of what I referred to was speculative foreshadowing, so we'll have to see how Arya's journey shakes out.

Arya and Gendry had a love song written for them, they wrestled each other on the floor until they're clothes were ripped, the fight over "ringing the girl's bells", and the whole deal with the "Wenda the White Fawn". That doesn't automatically negate Jon x Arya, but the fact that a romance with Gendry will has been prettily well set up and will eat up time in the narrative, for me means that all that has to go somewhere, and is there room for both? I'm not inclined to think so.

And to be honest, I'm not sure, even given GRRM's thing for incest, that he's gonna take it that far. Studies done on children raised closed together in the Jewish Kubutz show that they have no sexual attraction to each other even though they're not related; it causes they're brains to think of each other as siblings. So yes, this is a fictional world, and yes this fantasy, but the idea that suddenly the thinking of each other as brother and "little sister" goes away cause in the middle of this they learn they're actually cousins seems just really far out. It will also require GRRM to gross out the vast majority of his fandom with a relationship that is very deep, but reads as being almost entirely a familial one.

So I'm willing to give Ice Turtle a chance and let them do their thing, but when you add on top of if the parallels to Bran the Blessed that point to Jon's death at the climax of the story, and GRRM's "gardening approach" to writing, I think we can chalk up what we could read as romantic or sexual tones to being remnants of a plan that has since been scrapped.

Sorry, I didn't mean the 'favourite ship' part as an insult. I don't mind people shiping, even though I am not into it. I suppose I misread your stance on the matter.

Now, explaining: the hints and subtext that exists targets the reader, not the characters. The characters themselves do think of each other as brother and sister because that's what they believe they are. However there are a few, eh, curious lines like Ygritte asking Jon if he'd sleep with his sister and Jon reacting - not reacting at all, actually. Some thoughts in A Dance with Dragons have a suspect wording, like "in the Bastard's bed" - yea it's Ramsay, but who is the Bastard with capital B? But anyway, I concede that all these might prove to be just confirmation bias from my part. I do not concede that they are not worth of consideration, though.

Arya and Gendry never gave me the feeling of "endgame relationship", just like the current thing between Jon and Val. There is not much endgame stuff there IMO, but some necessary cuteness to lighten up some very dark chapters. The song (a very beautiful one) rather points to different world views and in the end, the symbolic hero of the song does not choose the "forest", he seems to insist on the "featherbed".

Jon and Ygritte had much more of an endgame feeling, but it was done on purpose so that her death would have a heavier effect to the reader.

The draft also leaves at plain sight the idea that Jon is not Ned's son. Is this idea also dropped? I don't think so.

In regards to the draft, I don't believe it should be taken as a proof or disproof about anything, except for the argument that the author wouldn't go there because it's uncomfortable to the readers. He had in mind to go exactly there. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but not because the readers will be grossed out.

As for the Westermark studies, they do indeed suggest that there is an effect but 1. there is some counter evidence that restrict the affected sample, so to say e.g. age differences and so on but, more importantly 2. these characters would have all the prerequisites to be exceptions to the rule: they have a ton of unresolved issues that will remain unresolved because therapy has not been invented yet at their setting. Mother issues, father issues, trust issues, rejection issues... I don't think their relationship is meant to satisfy a need for an emotionally comfortable, happily ever after outcome from the reader's part. It would fit more into the bittersweet mold, IMO.

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Sorry, I didn't mean the 'favourite ship' part as an insult. I don't mind people shiping, even though I am not into it. I suppose I misread your stance on the matter.

Now, explaining: the hints and subtext that exists targets the reader, not the characters. The characters themselves do think of each other as brother and sister because that's what they believe they are. However there are a few, eh, curious lines like Ygritte asking Jon if he'd sleep with his sister and Jon reacting - not reacting at all, actually. Some thoughts in the Dance with Dragon have a suspect wording, like "in the Bastard's bed" - yea it's Ramsay, but who is the Bastard with capital B? But anyway, I concede that all these might prove to be just confirmation bias from my part. I do not concede that they are not worth of consideration, though.

Arya and Gendry never gave me the feeling of "endgame relationship", just like the current thing between Jon and Val. There is not much endgame stuff there IMO, but some necessary cuteness to light up some very dark chapters. The song (a very beautiful one) rather points to different world views and in the end, the symbolic hero of the song does not choose the tree, he seems to insist on the featherbed.

Jon and Ygritte had much more of the endgame feeling, but it was done on purpose so that her death would have a heavier effect to the reader.

The draft also leaves to plain sight that Jon is not Ned's son. Is this idea also dropped? I don't think so.

In regards to the draft, I don't believe it should be taken as a proof or disproof about anything, except for the argument that the author wouldn't go there because it's uncomfortable to the readers. He had in mind to go exactly there. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but not because the readers will be grossed out.

As for the Westermark studies, they do indeed suggest that there is an effect but 1. there is some counter evidence that restrict the affected sample, so to say e.g. age differences and so on but, more importantly 2. these characters would have all the prerequisites to be exceptions to the rule: they have a ton of unresolved issues that will remain unresolved because therapy has not been invented yet at their setting. Mother issues, father issues, trust issues, rejection issues... I don't think their relationship is meant to satisfy a need for an emotionally comfortable, happily ever after outcome from the reader's part. It would fit more into the bittersweet mold, IMO.

You think there's something go on between Jon and Val?

I don't read that at all. I know the "gelding" threat was in jest really, but there hasn't been a lot actually friendly and personal interaction between them. Don't get me wrong, if that ship sailed, i would wave it out of the harbor, but I don't think it's there.

The letter didn't spell out R+L. You would still have to read between the lines of Ned's chapters to know, so it's not a full and true spoiler.

For me, Arya x Gendry feels endgame mostly cause of the whole deal with "I have a son, you have a daughter. We'll join our houses." It just ties it up so neatly for me, and I am inclined to think that Arya will like all of the other female POV's be involved in romance somehow. It would be weird not to. And if Jon dies, like I think he will based on his general hero arc and the Bran the Blessed connection, then having it be Gendry feels more right.

Maybe I gotta go back read Arya and Jon's chapters, but I'm not feeling the romantic connection. But the capital B comes from Ramsay being known as "the Bastard of Bolton." Although, if Ramsay is clearly a foil for Jon just as the Boltons are a foil for the Starks, is there a connection there?

In general, and this is entirely a personal feeling, Jon x Arya would ruin these characters for me. The incest would gross me out too much, not least of which them being raised as brother and sister. Cousins bother me less, but still nasty. A know a lot of people are rooting for Jon x Dany, but I'm indifferent even though I think that might become canon in some fashion.

Ah well, we'll just have to see how it all shakes out, but my final call is that Jon x Arya is out.

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I was talking about how George hinted that needle is even more then her connection to Jon and her family in his early draft

I think that was before the whole dragonglass stuff came up. Hence why I believe he created Dark Sister, a blade with a storied history beginning with a warrior queen but also legendary men too. Its been set up Needle is getting too small, I believe Jon will give her this Fire blade after Bloodraven passes it to him and he finds out Rhaegar is his father. Another fire and ice juxtaposition.

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Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me." "Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not."

Sansa supposed to marry Joffrey, so we have one queen (Sansa married Joffrey in leaked original asoiaf book proposal). But why GRRM used here word "Queens"? If Arya marry Jon, she will be the second queen.

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Ned is adamant that Arya is getting a King isnt he? That weirwood bed man, funky dreams.

Im getting Neville Sister vibes, the oldest Neville girl was married to the Duke of Clarence so they could overthrow his brother Edward and she would be queen. It fails. But the younger Neville Anne was raised with the kings younger brother Richard, her cousin. While under house arrest she dressed as a maid I think and escaped to a convent where Richard found her and married her. He became Richard III and she became a queen

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This thread... So many mixed feelings about it. Though I'm surprised there are people who, quote: hadn't even realized the extent to their closeness.



I love Arya and Jon as characters, two of them were always my absolute favorites. I love their undeniable, unquestionable love for each other... *sigh* Those two finally reunited was always going to to be the biggest, the most Grand emotional climax the saga can reach. At least for me, and judging by the popularity of both characters, for a whole lot of people.



When I think about it now, that is the only thing I would never forgive George, if Jon and Arya never saw each other again before the end...



and yet in light of the outline that was leaked... Before it I thought Jon/Arya shippers were totally crazy. Well, they are not so crazy anymore...



I guess... it could make sense if their reunion is actually romantic in nature, perhaps even more then if it is just as brother/sister (which they are not). If Arya will be Lyanna's age when that comes and Jon closer to Rhaegar's...



...


...


...



The show will never do it though. I am a fan of GoT but it makes me happy to think that if it happens in the books, George will know how to make it beautiful and natural. The show could never succeed with this pairing, I think...


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They are making maisie look younger than she is, she will be 18 in Series 6, 19 in series 7. Its strange how Arya seems to have been wandering the Riverlands in the same clothes in the time its taken for Sansa to get her first period and become a seductress! Sansa has aged about 5 years, Arya about 2.

But this season is the time in the books when it becomes clear she cannot pass as a boy anymore. That she is actually pretty and getting noticed. Maybe she'll get a more grown up look and not just the skirt they showed us. She should have a few different outfits.

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Ice Turtle thank you for putting this together, nice job as usual! And I agree with you, AryaNymeriaVisenya and ShadowCat Rivers. All of you have made great points and highlighted interesting passages!






For me, Arya x Gendry feels endgame mostly cause of the whole deal with "I have a son, you have a daughter. We'll join our houses." It just ties it up so neatly for me, and I am inclined to think that Arya will like all of the other female POV's be involved in romance somehow. It would be weird not to. And if Jon dies, like I think he will based on his general hero arc and the Bran the Blessed connection, then having it be Gendry feels more right.





There was something there, for sure. Some kind of connection or crush but they both turned their backs on it in the end really. Gendry "left" her and Arya has not thought about him since.



To add I used to feel they could have possibly ended up in a relationship, and even liked the thought, until the Arya reread thread. I noticed Gendry was not so nice, understanding and accepting of Arya as he first appeared to me. I'm not sure that they could have a healthy relationship at this point.

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Ice Turtle thank you for putting this together, nice job as usual! And I agree with you, AryaNymeriaVisenya and ShadowCat Rivers. All of you have made great points and highlighted interesting passages!

There was something there, for sure. Some kind of connection or crush but they both turned their backs on it in the end really. Gendry "left" her and Arya has not thought about him since.

To add I used to feel they could have possibly ended up in a relationship, and even liked the thought, until the Arya reread thread. I noticed Gendry was not so nice, understanding and accepting of Arya as he first appeared to me. I'm not sure that they could have a healthy relationship at this point.

Never liked Gendry, not on the first read and even more so on the last. Actually, that is how I feel about all of the Baratheons. Don really like them, any of them. Interesting how they weren't even included in the original outline. Which does indicate their importance to the real endgame, or rather lack of it. Yeah, Stannis fans, think about that.

They are making maisie look younger than she is, she will be 18 in Series 6, 19 in series 7. Its strange how Arya seems to have been wandering the Riverlands in the same clothes in the time its taken for Sansa to get her first period and become a seductress! Sansa has aged about 5 years, Arya about 2.

But this season is the time in the books when it becomes clear she cannot pass as a boy anymore. That she is actually pretty and getting noticed. Maybe she'll get a more grown up look and not just the skirt they showed us. She should have a few different outfits.

I just can't imagine Maisie and Kit... I just can't imagine them in romantic scenes. Luckily, when I read, both Jon and especially Arya look completely different than the actors playing them.

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Good OP. Here's something I posted in the R+L=J thread a few days ago.




Jon + Arya hints at R+L=J, imo.



Genetically, Jon and Arya are cousins, but emotionally they're (bastard half-)brother and sister. That gives the relationship an incest vibe. Hint Hint. It would be very Targaryen-like of Jon to fall in love with and/or marry his closest living female relative. And it would be very Rhaegar-like of him to fall in love with Arya, because of her similarities to Lyanna. Arya's relationship with Gendry calls to mind the Lyanna-Robert betrothal.




Basically, Jon + Arya seems like history repeating itself. There's even the Gendry-Arya relationship to sort of parallel Robert and Lyanna's betrothal. But who does Arya really love? Jon, son of Rhaegar.


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There was something there, for sure. Some kind of connection or crush but they both turned their backs on it in the end really. Gendry "left" her and Arya has not thought about him since.

To add I used to feel they could have possibly ended up in a relationship, and even liked the thought, until the Arya reread thread. I noticed Gendry was not so nice, understanding and accepting of Arya as he first appeared to me. I'm not sure that they could have a healthy relationship at this point.

Gendry didn't "leave" Arya. He was likely the voice calling out for her when she ran off and was captured by Sandor. When Brienne finds him in ADWD, he is a remarkably more angry character, and reacts with anger to the mention of "the Hound" when before he didn't actually care one way or the other about the man.

Also, Arya has thought about Gendry since. Here's one example early AFFC, but there are a couple more later, and at least one in ADWD:

As the swish of oars faded, she could almost hear the beating of her heart. Suddenly she was somewhere else… back in Harrenhal with Gendry, maybe, or with the Hound in the woods along the Trident. Salty is a stupid child, she told herself. I am a wolf, and will not be afraid. She patted Needle’s hilt for luck and plunged into the shadows, taking the steps two at a time so no one could ever say she’d been afraid. Arya, AFFC

Gendry still matters to her, and she matters to him.

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Gendry didn't "leave" Arya. He was likely the voice calling out for her when she ran off and was captured by Sandor. When Brienne finds him in ADWD, he is a remarkably more angry character, and reacts with anger to the mention of "the Hound" when before he didn't actually care one way or the other about the man.

Also, Arya has thought about Gendry since. Here's one example early AFFC, but there are a couple more later, and at least one in ADWD:

Gendry still matters to her, and she matters to him.

I meant that Arya seems to feel that Gendry left her

ASOS

Jaqen was gone, though. He'd left her. Hot Pie left me too, and now Gendry is leaving

As Arya was cinching her saddle girth, Gendry came up to say that he was sorry. She put a foot in the stirrup and swung up into her saddle, so she could look down on him instead of up. You could have made swords at Riverrun for my brother, she thought, but what she said was, "If you want to be some stupid outlaw knight and get hanged, why should I care? I'll be at Riverrun, ransomed, with my brother."

Then she thinks for a moment about being an outlaw with Gendry but she drops that fantasy very quick

Sometimes she thought she might go back to Shama's inn, if the floods hadn't washed it away. She could stay with Hot Pie, or maybe Lord Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs.

But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound. None of them wanted her around. They were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all.

In AFFC Arya only thinks of Gendry twice, the first is the one you commented on here;

Suddenly she was somewhere else... back in Harrenhal with Gendry, maybe, or with the Hound in the woods along the Trident. Salty is a stupid child, she told herself. I am a wolf, and will not be afraid. She patted Needle’s hilt for luck and plunged into the shadows, taking the steps two at a time so no one could ever say she’d been afraid.

Arya was scared and thought of Gendry, along with the Hound, to give her courage since she admired their strength but she found her courage and strength with Needle instead.

This is the very last time Arya thinks of Gendry

When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. She had no pack, though. They had killed her pack, Ser Ilyn and Ser Meryn and the queen, and when she tried to make a new one [pack] all of them ran off, Hot Pie and Gendry and Yoren and Lommy Greenhands, even Harwin, who had been her father’s man

Arya does not think of Gendry in ADWD

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I meant that Arya seems to feel that Gendry left her

ASOS

Jaqen was gone, though. He'd left her. Hot Pie left me too, and now Gendry is leaving

As Arya was cinching her saddle girth, Gendry came up to say that he was sorry. She put a foot in the stirrup and swung up into her saddle, so she could look down on him instead of up. You could have made swords at Riverrun for my brother, she thought, but what she said was, "If you want to be some stupid outlaw knight and get hanged, why should I care? I'll be at Riverrun, ransomed, with my brother."

Then she thinks for a moment about being an outlaw with Gendry but she drops that fantasy very quick

Sometimes she thought she might go back to Shama's inn, if the floods hadn't washed it away. She could stay with Hot Pie, or maybe Lord Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs.

But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound. None of them wanted her around. They were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all.

In AFFC Arya only thinks of Gendry twice, the first is the one you commented on here;

Suddenly she was somewhere else... back in Harrenhal with Gendry, maybe, or with the Hound in the woods along the Trident. Salty is a stupid child, she told herself. I am a wolf, and will not be afraid. She patted Needle’s hilt for luck and plunged into the shadows, taking the steps two at a time so no one could ever say she’d been afraid.

Arya was scared and thought of Gendry, along with the Hound, to give her courage since she admired their strength but she found her courage and strength with Needle instead.

This is the very last time Arya thinks of Gendry

When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. She had no pack, though. They had killed her pack, Ser Ilyn and Ser Meryn and the queen, and when she tried to make a new one [pack] all of them ran off, Hot Pie and Gendry and Yoren and Lommy Greenhands, even Harwin, who had been her father’s man

Arya does not think of Gendry in ADWD

Well, she feels pretty depressed and abandoned at that point. She feels like Gendry and Hot Pie left her, and Needle is all she has. It's understandable. It's not moment to be underestimated, especially with it's very obvious romantic undertones.

Considering he was given the time of day in later AFFC, and his obvious anger over how the Hound kidnapped her, and his proximity to Nymeria, Lady Stoneheart (who needs the gift of mercy) and the Green Men, I expect them to reunite and for that relationship to develop in TWOW. How strongly GRRM will lean on that romance will be his decision.

But give Jon's parallels to Bran the Blessed's ill-fated half-brother, and the fact the original proposal included came with a five-year gap and Jon and Arya meeting up again early in the series, I'm betting money on Jon's death at the climax, and the Gendry is the replacement love interest.

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Well, she feels pretty depressed and abandoned at that point. She feels like Gendry and Hot Pie left her, and Needle is all she has. It's understandable. It's not moment to be underestimated, especially with it's very obvious romantic undertones.

Considering he was given the time of day in later AFFC, and his obvious anger over how the Hound kidnapped her, and his proximity to Nymeria, Lady Stoneheart (who needs the gift of mercy) and the Green Men, I expect them to reunite and for that relationship to develop in TWOW. How strongly GRRM will lean on that romance will be his decision.

But give Jon's parallels to Bran the Blessed's ill-fated half-brother, and the fact the original proposal included came with a five-year gap and Jon and Arya meeting up again early in the series, I'm betting money on Jon's death at the climax, and the Gendry is the replacement love interest.

Fair enough, we all have our preferences and/or opinions for various reasons and at least (for the most part) this thread is using textual support :)

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The strength of Arya and Jons relationship is definitely substantial. After all Jon who is in all things the spiritual if not the physical embodiment of Ned, decides to risk everything to save who he believes is Arya. Up until that point he is committed to the watch and his honour and commitment to it never appeared to be in doubt. He even killed ygritte, and went on a suicide mission and refused Stannis offer, but the moment he learns of fake Arya he's willing to sacrifice everything. Theres definitely something planned between them but unless we see the show start to develop this soon I don't think it will be romantic. I can't see a jon/ Arya relationship being in the books but not the show, it's just too big to exclude. Personally I would love this based on the characters in the books as its probably the only relationship that is truly about love and not power or lust. The main reason i don't see it happening is because the show hasn't really laid down any indication of this and the obvious one which is why has Martin okayed his original draft being released if this is really going to be a part of his last few books.

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Fair enough, we all have our preferences and/or opinions for various reasons and at least (for the most part) this thread is using textual support :)

Yeah I mean, really, the only thing that can answer the question is the TWOW, imo. If he hasn't given her a romance by that point don't know how he could. So we're here for at least another year trying to weigh the letter, the story developments and the text in the manner of reading the tea leaves.

Honestly, this is one of the one least bullshit invested threads on the worg, even if its thesis is one that I oppose violently with every fiber of my being.

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Yeah I mean, really, the only thing that can answer the question is the TWOW, imo. If he hasn't given her a romance by that point don't know how he could. So we're here for at least another year trying to weigh the letter, the story developments and the text in the manner of reading the tea leaves.

Honestly, this is one of the one least bullshit invested threads on the worg, even if its thesis is one that I oppose violently with every fiber of my being.

lol, yea I agree

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