Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

You think there's something go on between Jon and Val?

I don't read that at all. I know the "gelding" threat was in jest really, but there hasn't been a lot actually friendly and personal interaction between them. Don't get me wrong, if that ship sailed, i would wave it out of the harbor, but I don't think it's there.

In regards to Jon and Val, there's a thread by someone who does consider it as an endgame for the two. The OP is rather short, but there's a lot of stuff into the discussion, including some links to other interesting threads.

ETA: I also wanted to respond to this:

And if Jon dies, like I think he will based on his general hero arc and the Bran the Blessed connection [...]

But give Jon's parallels to Bran the Blessed's ill-fated half-brother, and the fact the original proposal included came with a five-year gap and Jon and Arya meeting up again early in the series, I'm betting money on Jon's death at the climax [...]

I don't believe that any parallels should be viewed as one-to-one, direct reflections of the pre-existing story.

I think that Arya's story has been influenced by the Odyssey and that there are also parallels to both the Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf. So, which of the three "is" she? None, in my opinion. There are thematic connections but not transplants, so to say.

[Ice Turtle]

To add I used to feel they could have possibly ended up in a relationship, and even liked the thought, until the Arya reread thread. I noticed Gendry was not so nice, understanding and accepting of Arya as he first appeared to me. I'm not sure that they could have a healthy relationship at this point.

I actually think that Gendry is nice for an ASOIAF character, especially to Arya but there is even bigger wall between him and Arya than between Jon and Ygritte. He does not seems like an out of box thinker like Jon so he has hard time overcoming those differences. IMO he feels like he will be forever breathing dust from her horse, forever unable to become her equal. He knows it and he don't want it. Even their song is about two people from different worlds wanting different things. How it ends, will the knight come to live in the forest or will the fores maid spent the rest of her life away from her trees? Neither sounds like good ending.

Yeah I mean, really, the only thing that can answer the question is the TWOW, imo. If he hasn't given her a romance by that point don't know how he could.

I am betting more on ADoS if it ever comes out. I think (just a feeling) that they won't reunite till the last book. But one book is enough for o romance. Jaime and Brienne developed feelings for each other in one book, Jon/Ygtritte lasted barely more than one book.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The strength of Arya and Jons relationship is definitely substantial. After all Jon who is in all things the spiritual if not the physical embodiment of Ned, decides to risk everything to save who he believes is Arya. Up until that point he is committed to the watch and his honour and commitment to it never appeared to be in doubt. He even killed ygritte, and went on a suicide mission and refused Stannis offer, but the moment he learns of fake Arya he's willing to sacrifice everything. Theres definitely something planned between them but unless we see the show start to develop this soon I don't think it will be romantic. I can't see a jon/ Arya relationship being in the books but not the show, it's just too big to exclude. Personally I would love this based on the characters in the books as its probably the only relationship that is truly about love and not power or lust. The main reason i don't see it happening is because the show hasn't really laid down any indication of this and the obvious one which is why has Martin okayed his original draft being released if this is really going to be a part of his last few books.

There is that huge bit of show foreshadowing:

- My cousin Alanna was the most beautiful girl I'd ever seen. When I was twelve, I was all elbows and knees and Alanna looked like a goddess sent to torture me. Pig-face, she called me.

- Pig-face ? That's ridiculous.

- I think it had something to do with my nose. Whenever she passed me in the halls, she'd oink.

[...]

- So what happened to Alanna ?

- Oh, she grew up to be the most beautiful woman and married a handsome lord, and they have darling children and live in a castle by the sea. It's all terribly frustrating.

- I'm sure she's jealous of you now. You'll be married here in the capital and she will have to come watch and pretend to be happy that you're queen.

That is Arya Horseface. It also calls back to:

“Go Ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow and call me Your Grace."

If Marge is foreshadowing Arya Horseface becoming queen and making her sister envious in that poetic role reversal hinted at in book 1 (Sansa will be the one calling Arya Your Grace and she will have to watch and pretend to be happy about it). Only Jon could really be King.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

My biggest piece of evidence to shoot down the letter is that it most of it wasn't blacked out like the final paragraph. If we do a tally, all of what we see is either impossible at this point or already passed:

Sansa having Joffrey's kid: out.

Bran and Cat and Arya going to the Wall together: out.

Tyrion burning Winterfell and then switching sides: out.

Dany and Drogo's invasion: out, has to happen with another Khalasar.

Five year gap: out.

Etc...

Not even R+L=J was in that letter, and Ned's chapters basically through that in your face. The theory is treated almost canon at this point (I'm behind btw). That would leave a Jon/Arya endgame as the sole spoiler in a letter full of otherwise scrapped ideas. Is that likely? No.

I also don't see how Jon is supposed to be King with the Iron Throne nearly defunct and Bran as the heir to the Builder's legacy of magic and kingship (also see here) and he will return through Gorne's Way.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Sansa choosing the Lannisters over her own kin- IN (She tells on Ned because she wants to stay in Kings Landing with Joffrey and be Queen)

Bran going beyond the wall- IN (Arya has been replaced with Meera, Arya's travelogue moved tot he Riverlands. I wonder if the show writers saw this and it inspired their Bran/Jon almost meeting with Bran turning away from him)

Winterfell getting burnt to the ground- IN (But Ramsey does it, and with FArya he seems to have taken Tyrion's Northern plot entirely. I think that would have been real Arya in Book 2 of the proposed story with Tyrion and Jon fighting over her leading to Jon's death and resurrection for Book 3)

Dany invading with an army of Dothraki- IN (She just has to get some new Dothraki)

R+L=J is in this letter. Its a letter for book 1 with the redacted bit being a general look at a proposed book 2. Jon's true parentage will be revealed, it was never going to be revealed in book 1.

The story has evolved, twisted, but I think the general core beats are still there. So Sansa still betrays her family but she is too young to do it for a kid, she just does it because she is being childishly selfish. I don't think Tyrion/Arya has any chance of happening though. If Tyrion falls head over heels for Dany then maybe we can entertain the idea that Arya has been replaced in this story. Until then, we can look at the evidence and speculate.

[Ice Turtle]

My biggest piece of evidence to shoot down the letter is that it most of it wasn't blacked out like the final paragraph.

But Jon not being Ned's heir is true and it is big deal for the future yet it is still there. And truthfully we are going to be much more spoiled by the show very soon.

Speaking of the show in this part of forum is entering dangerous waters so the last thing I will say about the matter is that even I think that if there is to be suppose to be Jon & Arya romance in the books they would most likely change it for the the screen.

[lidsa]

I think that if there is to be suppose to be Jon & Arya romance in the books they would most likely change it for the the screen.

Why?

Show-Jon and show-Arya are old enough to be with each other, cousins or no, and it's not like they balked on the Cersei-Jaime-romance?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Its rare to see Kit and Maisie together so our heads can't get around it. Maisie is 18 this April, fans will still be looking at her as a 13 year old! She's a grown woman now, none of the Stark kids are getting away with looking 3 years younger than they should, this season it will probably be 4 years younger, next 4-5 if the timeline doesn't speed up.

Last sighting of Kit and Maisie was 2 months ago

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

But Jon not being Ned's heir is true and it is big deal for the future yet it is still there. And truthfully we are going to be much more spoiled by the show very soon.

Speaking of the show in this part of forum is entering dangerous waters so the last thing I will say about the matter is that even I think that if there is to be suppose to be Jon & Arya romance in the books they would most likely change it for the the screen.

The question of Jon's true parentage is obvious, even if the answer (R+L=J) isn't. At most, that's two exceptions that were originally supposed to be embedded into completely a different story for the Starks. Why not black it out like the final paragraph? because this would be big.

My hypothesis is that the blacked paragraph was the one bit of plot from the original draft that's still relevant and outside the realm of certainty: The origin of the Others and the situation in Westeros after the final battle.

And with that, I'm going to depart from the conversation at this point cause I don't see my opinion changing, and I don't expect yours to either (which isn't a bad thing, this is supposed to be a fun board for people to share their ideas), and we'll just go in circles. Going in circles is not good.

Have fun!

[Han Snow]

My biggest piece of evidence to shoot down the letter is that it most of it wasn't blacked out like the final paragraph. If we do a tally, all of what we see is either impossible at this point or already passed:

Sansa having Joffrey's kid: out.

Bran and Cat and Arya going to the Wall together: out.

Tyrion burning Winterfell and then switching sides: out.

Dany and Drogo's invasion: out, has to happen with another Khalasar.

Five year gap: out.

Etc...

Not even R+L=J was in that letter, and Ned's chapters basically through that in your face. The theory is treated almost canon at this point (I'm behind btw). That would leave a Jon/Arya endgame as the sole spoiler in a letter full of otherwise scrapped ideas. Is that likely? No.

I also don't see how Jon is supposed to be King with the Iron Throne nearly defunct and Bran as the heir to the Builder's legacy of magic and kingship (also see here) and he will return through Gorne's Way.

I don't really like the idea of Jon and Arya romantically, but you, like most of the users on this board have a very limited perspective on things. Very limited. Abandon that stone mold you're stuck in, filled with your own preconceptions. Widen the horizon in front of you or I guarantee you that disappointment will find you in the next books. Funny how stubbornness seems to be a trait that all Baratheon fans share. My guess is that you love Gendry because you identify with him. But note this: He is actually a physical manifestation of stubbornness in the books, he is literally The Bull (as vividly described by the helmet he forges and carries and the nickname he chooses). And it doesn't seem like he is going to change anytime soon.

I won't dismiss the possibility that Arya and him somehow end up together, but I give it a very low chance of actually happening. They invoke the feeling of Lyanna and Robert. We don't have that much backstory on them, but I feel that it is reasonable to assume that before Lyanna got to knew Robert more personally, she found him attractive, but when his true nature became known to her, his appeal ended. A variation of this can be applied to Arya/Gendry. She is drawn to him, she bonds with him to an extent and then when his nature is revealed to her, she is disappointed and as of ADWD, she completely stops thinking of him. Now, Gendry is a far better person than the idiot rapist Robert ever was, but I doubt GRRM will give him kingship in the end, or Lyanna's proxy - Arya. It's just not meant to be.

On the other hand...

Needle is Jon Snow's smile :) . It is the only thing in her life that Arya is not willing to let go, no matter what the price. Just think about this. NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE. And Arya is the only one Jon is willing to break his vows for, with the way he thinks about her, it is obvious he would literally do anything for her. That is not just brotherly love, that is what soulmates do.

If we are willing to accept such concept exists in the books, this would be it. The only other soulmate pairing that I can think of in this moment (but this time an actual romance, that exists in the books) are between Jaime and Brienne. He thinks that Cersei is his soulmate but we know she's not. It is also gorgeous how interchangeable they are with the roles of Beauty and the Beast. Jaime is Beautiful on the outside but a Lion by birth, a Beast on the inside. While Brienne is Beastly on the outside but actually Beautiful on the inside.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The question of Jon's true parentage is obvious, even if the answer (R+L=J) isn't. At most, that's two exceptions that were originally supposed to be embedded into completely a different story for the Starks. Why not black it out like the final paragraph? because this would be big.

My hypothesis is that the blacked paragraph was the one bit of plot from the original draft that's still relevant and outside the realm of certainty: The origin of the Others and the situation in Westeros after the final battle.

And with that, I'm going to depart from the conversation at this point cause I don't see my opinion changing, and I don't expect yours to either (which isn't a bad thing, this is supposed to be a fun board for people to share their ideas), and we'll just go in circles. Going in circles is not good.

Have fun!

No one knows who did the redaction or when it was done, or even if Harper Collins asked GRRMs permission for displaying the letter about a book they published 20 years ago

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I don't really like the idea of Jon and Arya romantically, but you, like most of the users on this board have a very limited perspective on things. Very limited. Abandon that stone mold you're stuck in, filled with your own preconceptions. Widen the horizon in front you or I guarantee you that disappointment will find you in the next books. Funny how stubbornness seems to be a trait that all Baratheon fans share. My guess is that you love Gendry because you identify with him. But note this: He is actually a physical manifestation of stubbornness in the books, he is literally The Bull (as vividly described by the helmet he forges and carries and the nickname he chooses). And it doesn't seem like he is going to be changing anytime soon.

I won't dismiss the possibility that Arya and him somehow end up together, but I give it a very low chance of actually happening. They invoke the feeling of Lyanna and Robert. We don't have that much backstory on them, but I feel that it is reasonable to assume that before Lyanna got to knew him more personally, she found him attractive, but when his true nature became known to her, his appeal ended. A variation of this can be applied to Arya/Gendry. She is drawn to him, she bonds with him to an extent and than when his nature is revealed to her she is disappointed and as of ADWD, she completely stops thinking of him. Now, Gendry is a far better person than the idiot rapist Robert ever was, but I doubt GRRM will give him kingship in the end, or Lyanna's proxy - Arya. It's just not meant to be.

On the other hand...

Needle is Jon Snow's smile :) . It is the only thing in her life that Arya is not willing to let go, no matter what the price. Just think about this. NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE. And Arya is the only one Jon is willing to break his vows, with the way he thinks about her, it is obvious he would literally do anything for her. That is not just brotherly love, that is what soulmates do.

If we are willing to accept such concept exists in the books, this would be it. The only other, but this time actual romance, that exists in the books is between Jaime and Brienne. He thinks that Cersei is his soulmate but we know she's not. It is also beautiful how interchangeable they are with the roles of Beauty and the Beast. Jaime is a beauty on the outside but a Lion by birth, a Beast on the inside. While Brienne is Beastly on the outside but actually Beautiful on the inside.

I need to make this clear before I peace out: I'm not a committed Arya x Gendry shipper. I'm not really a stan for Gendry (he's alright, but lol I''m a dorky INFP with a fascination for mysticism ). I'm just seeing a proposal for an early draft of a story from a writer who uses a gardening approach, and comparing it to what we have now: and they're two completely different tales. Tyrion isn't even mentioned as a dwarf. Am I pleased that so much changed? Well yeah. And given that 90% of this proposal is not a part of what we have now and not possible in the future books, I'm including Arya x Jon on the "out" list because the romance was meant to happen under totally different circumstances. Or at least, I'd bet 100 bucks on it not being canon.

[Han Snow]

I need to make this clear before I peace out: I'm not a committed Arya x Gendry shipper. I'm not really a stan for Gendry (he's alright, but lol I''m a dorky INFP with a fascination for mysticism ). I'm just seeing a proposal for an early draft of a story from a writer who uses a gardening approach, and comparing it to what we have now: and they're two completely different tales. Tyrion isn't even mentioned as a dwarf. Am I pleased that so much changed? Well yeah. And given that 90% of this proposal is not a part of what we have now and not possible in the future books, I'm including Arya x Jon on the "out" list because the romance was meant to happen under totally different circumstances. Or at least, I'd bet 100 bucks on it not being canon.

I'd put that money in the pocket if i were you. Granted the story changed drastically...But as described here:

Sansa choosing the Lannisters over her own kin- IN (She tells on Ned because she wants to stay in Kings Landing with Joffrey and be Queen)

Bran going beyond the wall- IN (Arya has been replaced with Meera, Arya's travelogue moved tot he Riverlands. I wonder if the show writers saw this and it inspired their Bran/Jon almost meeting with Bran turning away from him)

Winterfell getting burnt to the ground- IN (But Ramsey does it, and with FArya he seems to have taken Tyrion's Northern plot entirely. I think that would have been real Arya in Book 2 of the proposed story with Tyrion and Jon fighting over her leading to Jon's death and resurrection for Book 3)

Dany invading with an army of Dothraki- IN (She just has to get some new Dothraki)

R+L=J is in this letter. Its a letter for book 1 with the redacted bit being a general look at a proposed book 2. Jon's true parentage will be revealed, it was never going to be revealed in book 1.

The story has evolved, twisted, but I think the general core beats are still there. So Sansa still betrays her family but she is too young to do it for a kid, she just does it because she is being childishly selfish. I don't think Tyrion/Arya has any chance of happening though. If Tyrion falls head over heels for Dany then maybe we can entertain the idea that Arya has been replaced in this story. Until then, we can look at the evidence and speculate.

The skeleton of the story is still very much present. The outside, the body may have changed its gender and haircut, but the bones are still completely the same. Now consider that George says that the ending is the same one he envisioned in the beginning, he just veered off the road to get there. If Jon and Arya are to be together romantically, it is endgame material. The ROMANCE may not be present yet, but the extraordinary LOVE shared between the two most certainly is.

I used to think that it was just incredible brotherly love, but I see now that I was wrong. George had no problem going there with Jon and Arya and it was suppose to be the biggest romance in the series. Having that in mind and reading what is presented in the books, it seems he is still very much headed that way.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I AM an avid Arya/Gendry Shipper. Come at me boys! I can take ya! :box:

But at the same time, its silly not to look at things from different perspectives. I can totally understand having all that in the first book if it was done with the outline in mind. However, if its dropped I don't get why it has carried on being emphasised. Why is Jon comparing the girl he loses his virginity to, to his sister, 4 times?! Every girl he seems to like gets some sort of comparison to Arya.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I'd put that money in the pocket if i were you. Granted the story changed drastically...But as described here:

NOPE! It's laid out on the table. Details or events are vaguely similar, but that's where my 100 bucks will rest guys. See ya in 5-6 years, everyone (or earlier, if endings are any easier for GRRM to handle than the middle, if he's like other writers in that respect).

[Han Snow]

I AM and avid Arya/Gendry Shipper. Come at me boys! I can take ya! :box:

But at the same time, its silly not to look at things from different perspectives. I can totally understand having all that in the first book if it was done with the outline in mind. However, if its dropped I don't get why it has carried on being emphasised. Why is Jon comparing the girl he loses his virginity to, to his sister, 4 times?! Every girl he seems to like gets some sort of comparison to Arya.

Oh yes, look at that, the avi speaks the tale for you. I have nothing against such pairing. As I said, I don't like Gendry. He embodies some qualities that I really dislike in a person, but the quasi school crush between the two was kind of sweet. What I don't understand is where is the appeal for them in the future? Why "ship" them for the future? Arya is my absolute favorite character in the books. But before the outline I never thought about her potential partner. I was aware of the Queen implications by that most likely forshadowing Ned sentence. I was aware she was the Ugly Duckling that is going to end up as the gracious Swan in future books, but I never concentrated my efforts on her potential romantic partner. Gendry remained a possibility, but never a serious one for me.

[Han Snow]

NOPE! It's laid out on the table. Details or events are vaguely similar, but that's where my 100 bucks will rest guys. See ya in 5-6 years, everyone (or earlier, if endings are any easier for GRRM to handle than the middle, if he's like other writers in that respect).

From your post to GRRM's fingers!!! :cool4:

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Jon and Arya would be top-tier creepy stuff... but then again, it would not be fresh news in westeros history

[Isgrimner]

Arya and Gendry never gave me the feeling of "endgame relationship", just like the current thing between Jon and Val. There is not much endgame stuff there IMO, but some necessary cuteness to lighten up some very dark chapters. The song (a very beautiful one) rather points to different world views and in the end, the symbolic hero of the song does not choose the "forest", he seems to insist on the "featherbed".

Jon and Ygritte had much more of an endgame feeling, but it was done on purpose so that her death would have a heavier effect to the reader.

I like Jon with Val admittedly. I felt he was forced into a relationship with Ygritte and came to care for her from that. It seemed to me Jon always had qualifiers when thinking of Ygritte, ie. she is pretty when she smiles, plain otherwise. With Val, even though he is sticking to his vows, everytime he thinks of her, he is thinking how awesome he thinks she is, and not just her appearance. So even though I do like Jon with Val, I kind of don't think she is endgame either. While I'm definetly not one who wants Jon with Dany, I guess if that particular coupling were to come to pass, Val could be to Jon what dumb Daario is to Dany, thier second lost love. Just for symetry in the story. Though Val is so much better than Daario.

[DragonDreamer]

NOPE! It's laid out on the table. Details or events are vaguely similar, but that's where my 100 bucks will rest guys. See ya in 5-6 years, everyone (or earlier, if endings are any easier for GRRM to handle than the middle, if he's like other writers in that respect).

You don't have to wait that long, the series should end by 2017 and we'll know the ending by then. GRRM met up with D&D a couple of years ago in Santa Fe and told them how all the main characters arcs end. D&D have said that they like the ending and will keep it. Quite frankly I don't see any reason whatsoever for them NOT to keep the ending, it makes little sense. The changes they've had to make was in order to condense a very large series.

http://www.craveonline.com/tv/articles/658637-george-r-r-martin-tells-game-of-thrones-producers-how-the-series-will-end

http://www.ew.com/article/2014/03/19/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-ending