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Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)


Ice Turtle

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I like Jon with Val admittedly. I felt he was forced into a relationship with Ygritte and came to care for her from that. It seemed to me Jon always had qualifiers when thinking of Ygritte, ie. she is pretty when she smiles, plain otherwise. With Val, even though he is sticking to his vows, everytime he thinks of her, he is thinking how awesome he thinks she is, and not just her appearance. So even though I do like Jon with Val, I kind of don't think she is endgame either. While I'm definetly not one who wants Jon with Dany, I guess if that particular coupling were to come to pass, Val could be to Jon what dumb Daario is to Dany, thier second lost love. Just for symetry in the story. Though Val is so much better than Daario.

I like Val too, on her own right, but I think that her function in the story in regards to Jon Snow is to be a constant reminder of what could have been and of the cost to keep his vows.

Also, I think that she also functions to remind the reader of Arya; the adjectives lonely, lovely, lethal --especially lethal-- evoke what Arya has become. Actually, there's a lot of irony in the contrast of the mental image Jon has for Arya (his child little sister) and what the readers know about her.

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I like Val too, on her own right, but I think that her function in the story in regards to Jon Snow is to be a constant reminder of what could have been and of the cost to keep his vows.

Also, I think that she also functions to remind the reader of Arya; the adjectives lonely, lovely, lethal --especially lethal-- evoke what Arya has become. Actually, there's a lot of irony in the contrast of the mental image Jon has for Arya (his child little sister) and what the readers know about her.

Really? Cause I always though that there were parts of Val's character that were similar to Dany.

DAENERYS ACOK

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

JON ADWD

The light of the half-moon turned Vals honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. The air tastes sweet.

and of course Dany famously has silver colored hair. Added to that that Val get's described as a warrior queen and Dany is an actual warrior (conqueror) queen. Also, GRRM has compared Dany to Nymeria, the other warrior queen.

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Dany isn't a warrior, she doesn't fight. Neither was Nymeria but the stories Arya listened to depicted her that way, they also depicted her as a witch. Jon calls Val a 'warrior princess', but Val isn't a Princess, just the sister of Mance's wife. Cat sees Arya as a warrior in the sept remember, but briefly, she isn't there yet. And she is a Princess of Winterfell.



You are also missing the earlier comparison to when he does call her that. Val is imprisoned and has tried to escape, nearly killing a man. Jon is swooning because she is Lonely, Lovely, Lethal and not like a princess in a tower who waits for a Knight to rescue her. Arya's first kill was escaping the Red Keep, while Sansa waited for Ser Dontos.



GRRM really overuses the word sweet, 'sweet' girl and 'sweet sister' get a run too. Not to forget 'sweet summer child'.


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Dany isn't a warrior, she doesn't fight. Neither was Nymeria but the stories Arya listened to depicted her that way, they also depicted her as a witch. Jon calls Val a 'warrior princess', but Val isn't a Princess, just the sister of Mance's wife. Cat see's Arya as a warrior in the sept remember, but briefly, she isn't there yet. And she is the Princess of Winterfell.

You miss the point of my post. As you say Jon himself refers to Val as a warrior queen and Dany is one as well The fact that Both Dany and Nymeria have fought fearlessly for their people, shows them to be warriors. Fighting is not just about wielding a sword, commanding armies and leading people are also considered the acts of warriors.

Here is the quote by the way on Dany and Nymeria:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Answers_to_Old_Questions/

ETA

GRRM really overuses the word sweet, 'sweet' girl and 'sweet sister' get a run too. Not to forget 'sweet summer child'.

Yes, a pale silver haired girl talking about air smelling sweet has nothing to do with an actual pale silvered haired girl seeing vision of air smelling sweetly. Both related to the same guy.

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You miss the point of my post. As you say Jon himself refers to Val as a warrior queen and Dany is one as well The fact that Both Dany and Nymeria have fought fearlessly for their people, shows them to be warriors. Fighting is not just about wielding a sword, commanding armies and leading people are also considered the acts of warriors.

Here is the quote by the way on Dany and Nymeria:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Answers_to_Old_Questions/

The interviewer says that she is a Warrior Queen, not GRRM. He says that they are not Amazonians who were warriors like Joan or Xena 'The Warrior Princess', He's saying that she is more like Dany, a commander, not a warrior. Brienne is his Xena he said in another interview, a realistic interpretation of what Xena should be. Not the model in sexy armour with lesbian undertones to tickle some fancies.

Jon refers to Val as a warrior Princess not a queen. Dany isn't a warrior queen, there are different types of fighting, not all of them done in amour as a warrior.

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The interviewer says that she is a Warrior Queen, not GRRM. He says that they are not Amazonians who were warriors like Joan or Xena 'The Warrior Princess', He's saying that she is more line Dany, a commander, not a warrior. Brienne is his Xena he said in another interview, a realistic interpretation of what Xena should be. Not the model in sexy armour with lesbian undertones to tickle some fancies.

No, he never denies that they are warrior queens he just says that they aren't in the same vain as the amazon tradition. There are different types of warrior as I've already mentioned.

Jon refers to Val as a warrior Princess not a queen. Dany isn't a warrior queen, there are different types of fighting, not all of them done in amour as a warrior.

Dany is a warrior queen, I don't know what so hard to grasp. You said it yourself, there are different types of fighting, not all requiring swords.

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No, he never denies that they are warrior queen he just says that they aren't in the same vain as the amazon tradition. They are different types of warrior as I already mentioned.

There is no Amazon tradition. Amazons would use bows and arrows and swords to fight men in myths, Ygritte was like an Amazon. Nymeria and Dany are not.

Warrior:

(especially in former times) a brave or experienced soldier or fighter.

"the warrior heroes of ancient Greece"

synonyms: fighter, soldier, fighting man, serviceman, combatant;

"fearsome warriors"

Nymeria and Dany are as warrior-like as Winston Churchill in World War 2. They are commanding, they aren't on the front lines. Robb would be considered a warrior because he fought. Xena is a Warrior Princess because she fights physically, not metaphorically! Brienne is a warrior because she gets down and dirty and fights.

GRRM: I enjoyed Xena the Warrior Princess a lot but I did not think it was an accurate portrayal of what a women warrior was or would be like, and I sort of created Brienne of Tarth as an answer to that. I was inspired by people like Eleanor of Aquitaine and not so much Joan of Arc, but the queens of Scottish history, from Lady Macbeth on down – strong women who didn’t put on chain-mail bikinis to go forth into battle, but exercised immense powers by other ways

Brienne is his 'realistic' woman warrior. Eleanor of Aquataine wasn't a warrior queen, she used the men in her family.

Cat describes some warriors herself:

Renly and Stannis, Robb and Robert, Jaime Lannister and Jon Snow. She even glimpsed Arya in those lines, just for an instant.

Sadly we didn't get to see Renly do much fighting but considering how he laughed his arse off about Joffrey getting beaten we have to assume he was OK. We have seen all the rest in physical combat.

I also believe he's said that while Nymeria wasn't a warrior, there were warrior women with her.

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There is no Amazon tradition. Amazons would use bows and arrows and swords to fight men in myths, Ygritte was like an Amazon. Nymeria and Dany are not.

Warrior:

(especially in former times) a brave or experienced soldier or fighter.

"the warrior heroes of ancient Greece"

synonyms: fighter, soldier, fighting man, serviceman, combatant;

"fearsome warriors"

Nymeria and Dany are as warrior-like as Winston Churchill in World War 2. They are commanding, they aren't on the front lines. Robb would be considered a warrior because he fought. Xena is a Warrior Princess because she fights physically, not metaphorically! Brienne is a warrior because she gets down and dirty and fights.

Cat describes some warriors herself:

Sadly we didn't get to see Renly do much fighting but considering how he laughed his arse off about Joffrey getting beaten we have to assume he was OK. We have seen all the rest in physical combat.

GRRM (the author of the story) spoke about the "Amazon" tradition in his comment, when referring to Nymeria and Daenerys as a warrior queen, I didn't come up with the term. You have an issue with that, pick it up with him.

He's basically saying what I've said three times, Nymeria and Dany are different kinds of warrior, not the sword and spear kind of warrior.

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GRRM (the author of the story) spoke about the "Amazon" tradition in his comment, when referring to Nymeria and Daenerys as a warrior queen, I didn't come up with the term. You have an issue with that, pick it up with him.

He's basically saying what I've said three times, Nymeria and Dany are different kinds of warrior, not the sword and spear kind of warrior.

I added another GRRM quote to my post where he says in more detail, his inspirations are not so much famous warrior women but women like Eleanor of Aquataine. She wasn't a warrior queen. If he wanted to talk warrior queens he would be going for Boudicca.

I didn't say you came up with the amazon term, I was clarifying what an Amazon means and does. Not what he imagined Dany and Nyms to be. The interviewer talks about 'Warrior Queens' and he's all 'not so much' you need to look at Brienne for a real warrior woman

No, he never denies that they are warrior queens he just says that they aren't in the same vain as the amazon tradition. There are different types of warrior as I've already mentioned.

Dany is a warrior queen, I don't know what so hard to grasp. You said it yourself, there are different types of fighting, not all requiring swords.

Not all fighters are warriors. A warrior is a specific type of archetype. I mean you wouldn't say all wrestlers were warriors but they fight.

ETA

Yes, a pale silver haired girl talking about air smelling sweet has nothing to do with an actual pale silvered haired girl seeing vision of air smelling sweetly. Both related to the same guy.

You might be right about that bit but with so many utterances of sweet I'm not 100% sure and even if it is meant to be about Dany, we are not sure what its meant to mean. The House of the Undying had false prophecies remember, when shown 'bride of fire' she sees herself on a horse, a man on a boat, and something referring to Jon. But she married Hizdahr and he doesnt match the descriptions of the second. If its about love, well she seems really into Daario and there was nothing about him. Is she the 'Bride' of fire the same way fire was Aery's 'champion'? A personification of wild destruction?

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This thread... So many mixed feelings about it. Though I'm surprised there are people who, quote: hadn't even realized the extent to their closeness.

When framed as the OP does it emphasizes how close they were. I would never have pictured it as being that close, merely the closeness of siblings bound by being equally out of place. Unless you're an Arya shipper, or a big fan of both (I admittedly am not, Jon Snow is not even close to my top 5 characters. His character is actually fairly flat.) there is no reason to actually view it beyond that. Arya's subplot is separate from the rest, there are parallels that can be drawn in terms of their arcs, but much like R+L=J until you actually put them together and view them as such it's not the first connection most people would make.

I believe neither in R+L=J (especially the branch where he's legitimate) nor do I ship Arya and Jon. I admit the arguments can be compelling, however (especially with R+L=J) much of the "evidence" is taken without proper context. Frankly I find Jon and Daenerys (the "heroes") are both boring, flat characters. Especially when placed against the rich world and deep characters that inhabit the rest of the series.

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Arya chewed her lip and said nothing. She would not betray Jon, not even to their father.

There is absolutely no one in this world Arya is more loyal to than Jon, not even her own father whom she loves dearly.

I do not think that it is meant to show that Arya is more loyal to Jon than to Eddard or other people she feels are her pack. It is simply that she detests betrayal of any kind -- even when it came the time to choose between helping and betraying someone like Lommy, she stuck by him.

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It's just creepy. There's already plenty of incest, no reason to add more. Plus, unless GRRM makes the books take a long in-universe time to finish (which he's shown he's incapable of doing) or does a timeskip(which he's also shown he's incapable of doing) then its also pedophilia.

I have wondered for a while if the Jaime/Cersei relationship was created in part to get us used to the incest theme. Freak us out with twins who started their relationship when they were 7 or 8 and suddenly cousins who don't get together until they are adults (by Westeros standards) don't look so bad.

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I have wondered for a while if the Jaime/Cersei relationship was created in part to get us used to the incest theme. Freak us out with twins who started their relationship when they were 7 or 8 and suddenly cousins who don't get together until they are adults (by Westeros standards) don't look so bad.

I don't think so. This is a series in which the writer does not shy out from having his protagonists engage in morally questionable and even abhorrent actions. Tyrion is his favourite, he is going to be extremely important and (I am certain of it!) most likely have a crucial part in "saving the world" but see his ADWD arc... and many more exambles.

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Really? Cause I always though that there were parts of Val's character that were similar to Dany.

DAENERYS ACOK

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

JON ADWD

The light of the half-moon turned Vals honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. The air tastes sweet.

and of course Dany famously has silver colored hair. Added to that that Val get's described as a warrior queen and Dany is an actual warrior (conqueror) queen. Also, GRRM has compared Dany to Nymeria, the other warrior queen.

No, that didn't come to my mind while reading. Placed together like this yes, I suppose you can make a case, but the similarities with Arya are striking: like, slitting a guard's throat to escape captivity (only Arya was actually successful) this does not need much associative skills to make the connection, it's an in-your-face reminder of Arya, especially in the context of ADWD Jon's arc, where Arya's alleged fate, and the memory of her, is a huge factor in driving Jon's decisions, actions and eventual fate.

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No, that didn't come to my mind while reading. Placed together like this yes, I suppose you can make a case, but the similarities with Arya are striking: like, slitting a guard's throat to escape captivity (only Arya was actually successful) this does not need much associative skills to make the connection, it's an in-your-face reminder of Arya, especially in the context of ADWD Jon's arc, where Arya's alleged fate, and the memory of her, is a huge factor in driving Jon's decisions, actions and eventual fate.

I guess it depends where your head it at. I instantly thought of Dany, with her and Jon having such parallel arcs in ADWD it was in intact connection for me.

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I guess it depends where your head it at. I instantly thought of Dany, with her and Jon having such parallel arcs in ADWD it was in intact connection for me.

The parallels are close in regards to leadership. Personal life and relevent dilemmas, not so much.

I am also not very inclined to put much weight on hair color: for examble, I don't think that Daario's blue hair could be a deliberate indication to a future romantic interest in Young Griff.

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I guess it depends where your head it at. I instantly thought of Dany, with her and Jon having such parallel arcs in ADWD it was in intact connection for me.

The part that does it for me is the comparison of the 'Warrior Princess' escaping while the willowy Princess waits for a Knight. Who is previously associated with the 'warrior', is to some a 'princess', who escapes a castle by stabbing someone and has a direct foil who is saved from a castle by a knight? (even if the Knight was a pawn and paid).

Actually they do have a lot of those, but those are from the start in AGOT onward. I mean even their relationships with Drogon and Ygirtte respectively have an incredible number of parallels.

I think you mean Drogo but I really cannot think of any, Drogo was a rapist who bought a young girl from her brother so he could violate her. Dany fell in love with him for some reason. Got knocked up. She lost both Drogo and the baby by messing with magic she didn't understand. Jon meets a girl on a ranging who was semi attractive, he quite liked and he was a teen virgin. He broke his vows, betrayed her and she ended up dead. I'm missing something here.

What do you guys think about the parallel between the Nights Watch and the Faceless Men? I'm trying to work out what GRRM is trying to say, it seems neither will stay the course with those organisations.

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Actually they do have a lot of those, but those are from the start in AGOT onward. I mean even their relationships with Drogon and Ygirtte respectively have an incredible number of parallels.

I was speaking of ADWD. That's the referential framework for the specific situation.

But I suppose that, as you said, much depends on where your head it at.

PS - Drogon, really? :)

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The part that does it for me is the comparison of the 'Warrior Princess' escaping while the willowy Princess waits for a Knight. Who is previously associated with the 'warrior', is to some a 'princess', who escapes a castle by stabbing someone and has a direct foil who is saved from a castle by a knight? (even if the Knight was a pawn and paid).

What do you guys think about the parallel between the Nights Watch and the Faceless Men? I'm trying to work out what GRRM is trying to say, it seems neither will stay the course with those organisations.

It's funny because in ADWD Dany daydreams of Daario rescuing her from the pyramid (tower) and taking her away but then comes to realize that those are childish fantasies and she mush take care of herself and her people.

I was speaking of ADWD. That's the referential framework for the specific situation.

But I suppose that, as you said, much depends on where your head it at.

PS - Drogon, really? :)

LOL!!!! Well, Drogon is a better match for Dany than Drogo. I mean he even is referred to as a king in ADWD.

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