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Jon & Arya - hints and overall significance of their relationship (including part 3)


Ice Turtle

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What do you guys think about the parallel between the Nights Watch and the Faceless Men? I'm trying to work out what GRRM is trying to say, it seems neither will stay the course with those organisations.

Oh yes, the similarity of the restrictions is huge. Almost identical. I can see the reasons for each, and how it may affect the individuals but I have no idea what it might say in conjunction to each other.

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It's funny because in ADWD Dany daydreams of Daario rescuing her from the pyramid (tower) and taking her away but then comes to realize that those are childish fantasies and she mush take care of herself and her people.

Maybe we will see her learn how to? Personally, without dragons she is as defenceless as Sansa. Ygritte was a murder, she could stab and shoot and have no remorse, Val is no different. That physicality seems right up Jon's alley, and the Knight of the Laughing Tree story feeds into it if he is the son of such a woman. I really dont think he has much time for women who don't take action in looking after themselves or sit an accept their fates. All the girls are getting rid of their romantic notions, Dany is Sansa-like in this way, but also Arya who wants to play at being Wenda and then dismisses it as 'stupid' and like something Sansa would think. For both Jon and Arya, everything Sansa represented seems to be everything to despise LOL

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Oh yes, the similarity of the restrictions is huge. Almost identical. I can see the reasons for each, and how it may affect the individuals but I have no idea what it might say in conjunction to each other.

Thinking about it Syrio also says to Arya 'You are a sword', the Night's Watch vow is 'I am the Sword in the Darkness'

Arya and Jon are very alike and both are similar in claiming to know what they want and who they are. Benjen says to Jon that he doesn't know what he will lose but Jon is adamant he doesn't want a wife or kids and will never inherit anyway. In the last book he admits having grown older that he wanted that all along. I wonder if Arya who thinks the same way will have a similar realisation. They have a pack mentality, and these vows are the direct opposite of it.

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Thinking about it Syrio also says to Arya 'You are a sword', the Night's Watch vow is 'I am the Sword in the Darkness'

Arya and Jon are very alike and both are similar in claiming to know what they want and who they are. Benjen says to Jon that he doesn't know what he will lose but Jon is adamant he doesn't want a wife or kids and will never inherit anyway. In the last book he admits having grown older that he wanted that all along. I wonder if Arya who thinks the same way will have a similar realisation. They have a pack mentality, and these vows are the direct opposite of it.

In a sense, the restrictions can be a way to make them value more what they are denied.

But I am affraid that for Arya, being a woman in that society, it's not as simple as growing up and realizing that the way she values things has changed.

For a man, family and children do not mean that he must forsake every other dream he ever had; a husband and father can very well be "a king’s councillor and build castles and become the High Septon". For a woman, it seems that family and children can only come with the price of domestication and if she aspires for a place in the "man's world" she will most likely have to abandon dreams for a family - see Brienne.

(There can be exceptions, of course, but that's the general rule).

And, the implications of becoming a queen (consort), in combination to the wolf symbolism and the hierarchical order in a wolf pack --and being very clear which is the place of each wolf, right from the start-- is really where the prospect of the pairing makes me uncomfortable: a conclusion that can easily feel like, the system is not really that much of a problem as long as you can find the right man... :dunno:

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I do not think that it is meant to show that Arya is more loyal to Jon than to Eddard or other people she feels are her pack. It is simply that she detests betrayal of any kind -- even when it came the time to choose between helping and betraying someone like Lommy, she stuck by him.

It certainly can be read your way too, and while I agree that Arya is a very loyal person and despises betrayal she is not equally loyal to to all members of the pack. Jon is only one who knows about her fears of being bastard, she thinks he would believe her when she hears Varys and while she questions if Cat and Robb would want her after she killed few men and looks like a street urchin she never doubts Jon. Jon is the person she trust the most so IMO he is the one whose trust is most important to her in return.

What do you guys think about the parallel between the Nights Watch and the Faceless Men? I'm trying to work out what GRRM is trying to say, it seems neither will stay the course with those organisations.

Yes I see some parallels too. Though there is similar theme with many other organizations, Kingsguard seems like the least demanding but silent sisters seem awful, they actually have even more parallels to FM than NW. But of course we have no POV joining them. NW actually figures heavily in Arya's story too: Yoren, Daeron and Sam, wildlings from Hardhome. I wonder if any FM connections will appear in Jon's story or if it already did in person of Tycho Nestoris.

And yes I can see both of them drifting from the organizations but it is possible that Arya will leave before "taking wow".

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In a sense, the restrictions can be a way to make them value more what they are denied.

But I am affraid that for Arya, being a woman in that society, it's not as simple as growing up and realizing that the way she values things has changed.

For a man, family and children do not mean that he must forsake every other dream he ever had; a husband and father can very well be "a king’s councillor and build castles and become the High Septon". For a woman, it seems that family and children can only come with the price of domestication and if she aspires for a place in the "man's world" she will most likely have to abandon dreams for a family - see Brienne.

(There can be exceptions, of course, but that's the general rule).

And, the implications of becoming a queen (consort), in combination to the wolf symbolism and the hierarchical order in a wolf pack --and being very clear which is the place of each wolf, right from the start-- is really where the prospect of the pairing makes me uncomfortable: a conclusion that can easily feel like, the system is not really that much of a problem as long as you can find the right man... :dunno:

Power allows women in Westeros to define themselves. The Mormonts of course aren't letting men near their power in case of a threat but they do not let it remove their sexuality. Nymeria redefined women's rights in Dorne because she had the power to back it up. Visenya had power because of her dragon and because she dominated her brother. I think the only way Arya gets to be Arya Stark and stay true to who she is, is by being so powerful no one can argue.

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My impression of the outline in the letter is that the Jon/Arya relationship was supposed to be an on-going storyline that would feature in all installments.

Also since Tyrion also seems to fall in love with Arya fairly early, it seems very reasonable to assume that Arya was supposed to be older.

But now we are looking at an ending where Arya will be (by the standards of GRRM's readership) severely underaged and meet Jon in the last 200 pages of Book Seven.

Even if Jon/Arya still happens then, it will be nothing like the relationship from the outline. So why bother with it then?

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My impression of the outline in the letter is that the Jon/Arya relationship was supposed to be an on-going storyline that would feature in all installments.

Also since Tyrion also seems to fall in love with Arya fairly early, it seems very reasonable to assume that Arya was supposed to be older.

But now we are looking at an ending where Arya will be (by the standards of GRRM's readership) severely underaged and meet Jon in the last 200 pages of Book Seven.

Even if Jon/Arya still happens then, it will be nothing like the relationship from the outline. So why bother with it then?

For fun. The same reason we bother to come here at all in the first place.

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There is a skinny and faceless weirwood at Nightfort which was described as reaching for the sun and then the moon. The word “skinny” belongs to Arya in ASOIAF. And she is training to become a faceless. According to Dothraki, the moon is the wife of the sun. According to the Qartheen legend, the moon and the sun came close which resulted in the moon giving birth to the dragons. Dany’s belly was likened to a full moon while she was pregnant and she is styled as the mother of dragons. Lyanna is the mother of a dragon too.



So, Arya as the skinny and faceless weirwood reaching towards Jon’s parents look intriguing. Mercy wants to see the dragons.


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Well Arya is associated with the Night, she is the Nights Wolf (No Darkstar shipping folks!). The Night being cold and dark. The opposite of the Sun's fiery warmth.

But I think the Sun and Moon thing was a Dany / Drogo thing. He is the metaphorical father of her dragon babies, her sun and stars. She the Moon of his life. The moon spilled forth dragons

My impression of the outline in the letter is that the Jon/Arya relationship was supposed to be an on-going storyline that would feature in all installments.

Also since Tyrion also seems to fall in love with Arya fairly early, it seems very reasonable to assume that Arya was supposed to be older.

But now we are looking at an ending where Arya will be (by the standards of GRRM's readership) severely underaged and meet Jon in the last 200 pages of Book Seven.

Even if Jon/Arya still happens then, it will be nothing like the relationship from the outline. So why bother with it then?

It kind of does, we just have to figure out how we are meant to interpret it. I think GRRM always had the idea that the characters would separate and come together at the very end. I suspect Jon wasn't supposed to see her from the moment he turned them away from the wall to the Finale.

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My impression of the outline in the letter is that the Jon/Arya relationship was supposed to be an on-going storyline that would feature in all installments.

Also since Tyrion also seems to fall in love with Arya fairly early, it seems very reasonable to assume that Arya was supposed to be older.

But now we are looking at an ending where Arya will be (by the standards of GRRM's readership) severely underaged and meet Jon in the last 200 pages of Book Seven.

Even if Jon/Arya still happens then, it will be nothing like the relationship from the outline. So why bother with it then?

Something did not happen, something did, something has changed but you still can see similarities. A lot of things still can go in either of those directions. We are left with a lot of time to try figure out what is what.

Didn't Bran still reach Bloodraven though he did not go with Arya and Cat, didn't Jon become LC though he was never a ranger? Do you think anyone expect anything to happen in the same manner?

The love between Jon and Arya is actually still one of the most important motives of the books,even if not romantic (for now).

Anyway this thread is not based only on the original outline, though I plan to come to it later.

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There is a skinny and faceless weirwood at Nightfort which was described as reaching for the sun and then the moon. The word “skinny” belongs to Arya in ASOIAF. And she is training to become a faceless. According to Dothraki, the moon is the wife of the sun. According to the Qartheen legend, the moon and the sun came close which resulted in the moon giving birth to the dragons. Dany’s belly was likened to a full moon while she was pregnant and she is styled as the mother of dragons. Lyanna is the mother of a dragon too.

So, Arya as the skinny and faceless weirwood reaching towards Jon’s parents look intriguing. Mercy wants to see the dragons.

Gods Mithras, even if I find that every so often you reach a little bit (I'm just as guilty though), you yet again put some fascinating analysis to pep up a mediocre thread.

Arya meeting Dany and Tyrion and figuring it out? (Maybe with some help from Bran?). I love the imagery you're talking about even if I'm not sure how it could go down.

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Gods Mithras, even if I find that every so often you reach a little bit (I'm just as guilty though), you yet again put some fascinating analysis to pep up a mediocre thread.

Arya meeting Dany and Tyrion and figuring it out? (Maybe with some help from Bran?). I love the imagery you're talking about even if I'm not sure how it could go down.

Just because Arya wants to see Dragons doesn't mean she is going to Mereen. It makes no narrative sense from an authors perspective to put 3 of your biggest characters in one place and leave the rest of the POVs to people like Jon Con and Brienne. Who needs 3 perspectives? Or do you not have POVs from 1-2 of your leads? What may fit as a possibility doesn't necessarily mean it fits the structure of the novel. Arya taking out Varys is a big example, her with the cats and his little birds, her wanting to kill a Wizard but he is not on her list and it makes no sense she would make her way to Kings Landing to off Varys unless she was told by the FM and we have reason to believe she will get that far with them. We also know she has to get the wall at some point, she is closer now to Eastwatch than Kings Landing. Also, going back to Kings Landing after spending 2 books on a journey away from Kings Landing is a bit of a narrative one way street. She needs to make her destination. Winterfell or the Wall.

Also, there is no reason for Tyrion to recognise her if she's faceless. There is zero interaction between the two characters yet at all.

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I haven't read the whole thread but have been focusing on Jon and Arya's relationship in my latest re-read. I do not question there is a strong bond between them and they love each other very much. However I do not see anywhere in the text where theirs is a romantic love. I have thought of it as a very close brotherly/sisterly love. Both Jon and Arya are misfits at Winterfell at the beginning of the story. They have bonded, but I do not see any real textural hint they will become man and wife. I do see hints that they will team up later in the story but not in that way. I think it is much more likely that they, along with their direwolves, will be a force to be reckoned with at some point in the story. I also think there is much significance to Arya naming her direwolf, Nymeria and Jon naming his Ghost. Exactly how that will play out I do not know but I think Arya/Nymeria will lead a host to team up with Jon/Ghost just like Nymeria led her people to team up with the Martells. Well that's my guess at least. The only thing I can say with certainty however from the text I read is that, while Jon and Arya's relationship is very strong and will play a large part in the story to come, there is no indication from the actual text that it will be a romantic relationship.


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As far as GRRM's outline from 1993...well GRRM is a gardner...He planted a seed and it grew in ways he did not originally predict. Its clear to see that his garden contains a lot more plants (characters) than he originally planned and the relationships and character development a lot more complicated than stated in the simple outline. Its a lot like my garden I planted years ago. It started out with a few seedlings and, despite my best efforts, year after year new plants emerged, some flowers some weeds, some needed pruning some needed pulling, but it continued to grow and grow. I would never recognize it as the garden I originally planted or imagined it would look like today, but I am pleased with the result, nonetheless.


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Just because Arya wants to see Dragons doesn't mean she is going to Mereen. It makes no narrative sense from an authors perspective to put 3 of your biggest characters in one place and leave the rest of the POVs to people like Jon Con and Brienne. Who needs 3 perspectives? Or do you not have POVs from 1-2 of your leads? What may fit as a possibility doesn't necessarily mean it fits the structure of the novel. Arya taking out Varys is a big example, her with the cats and his little birds, her wanting to kill a Wizard but he is not on her list and it makes no sense she would make her way to Kings Landing to off Varys unless she was told by the FM and we have reason to believe she won't get that far with them. We also know she has to get the wall at some point, she is closer now to Eastwatch than Kings Landing. Also, going back to Kings Landing after spending 2 books on a journey away from Kings Landing is a bit of a narrative one way street. She needs to make her destination. Winterfell or the Wall.

I consider Arya meeting Dany a possibility cause of the possible foreshadowing that happened while crossing the river with Sandor clegane and she saw a "kraken" and a "dragon". I'd have to go digging to find the exact quote, but it is interesting.

I don't expect even if she did meet a Dany, it would be in Meereen. Southern Essos would be my guess.

I'm kind of torn actually, cause on the one hand I want her to see Jon again, but on the other I see a pathway where she helps rescue the Hardhome captives, sails South, has an encounter with Dany in Southern Essos, and they bond a little over their shared love of freeing captives, settle the issue between the Stark and the Targaryens with Tyrion's knowledge of history, and then she spirits off the the Riverlands where (maybe) Nymeria is with her pack, reunites with Gendry, gives LS the gift of Mercy and even communicates with Bran.

The problem with my desire for her to meet Jon is that he is already "dead" and the Wall alleged to fall now that the NW no longer stands true, as Old Nan would say. Which would the Others invasion begins early in the books. That means no reunion with Jon likely. That's super cruel on GRRM's part. It's also a lot for her to do when this book when there is so much else for GRRM to deal with, Like the Ironborn and the Dance of the Dragons redux. There's also the issue of whether Nymeria has gone North, which could mean only a comparitive stop over in the Riverlands to deal with LS and Gendry, making it to the Wall in time to lead the wildlings South to Winterfell where Bran would be waiting, and fuck, even grab Rickon on Skagos.

In general, how she can go to the Wall and the Riverlands at the same time is a serious knot for him. I'm interested to see how he resolves it.

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You know Nymeria married Mors Martell right faceless man Friday?

The big clangers for me have always been ' you will marry a king' when there was no king to marry her to and ' father of queens' Ned is only to be the father of one queen in that point of the story where does he get 2 from? What does Ned have planned or is it lazy foreshadowing?

No one denies that Arya and Jon have a massive bond but what is the payoff? Why say that he loves his little sister more than anyone else? We have to be suspicious, is it part of the Targ package? He may not look like a weirdo but deep down he has the same sister issues his great grandpa did? It might be a Nissa Nissa thing, we can't rule that out but even that is sexual. He puts his sword in and she screams in pain and ecstasy? What are they going for? Let's discuss it, let's decipher it!

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I consider Arya meeting Dany a possibility cause of the possible foreshadowing that happened while crossing the river with Sandor clegane and she saw a "kraken" and a "dragon". I'd have to go digging to find the exact quote, but it is interesting.

I don't expect even if she did meet a Dany, it would be in Meereen. Southern Essos would be my guess.

I'm kind of torn actually, cause on the one hand I want her to see Jon again, but on the other I see a pathway where she helps rescue the Hardhome captives, sails South, has an encounter with Dany in Southern Essos, and they bond a little over their shared love of freeing captives, settle the issue between the Stark and the Targaryens with Tyrion's knowledge of history, and then she spirits off the the Riverlands where (maybe) Nymeria is with her pack, reunites with Gendry, gives LS the gift of Mercy and even communicates with Bran.

The problem with my desire for her to meet Jon is that he is already "dead" and the Wall alleged to fall now that the NW no longer stands true, as Old Nan would say. Which would the Others invasion begins early in the books. That means no reunion with Jon likely. That's super cruel on GRRM's part. It's also a lot for her to do when this book when there is so much else for GRRM to deal with, Like the Ironborn and the Dance of the Dragons redux. There's also the issue of whether Nymeria has gone North, which could mean only a comparitive stop over in the Riverlands to deal with LS and Gendry, making it to the Wall in time to lead the wildlings South to Winterfell where Bran would be waiting, and fuck, even grab Rickon on Skagos.

In general, how she can go to the Wall and the Riverlands at the same time is a serious knot for him. I'm interested to see how he resolves it.

We know everyone meets up up north, GRRM said it was like Lord of the Rings that way. So I don't doubt she will reach the North, I don't think she has to go back where she started after Ned died and retrace her steps. I also think she would be wasted in Mereen unless she has an Independant plot. GRRM says Tyrion won't even meet Dany until a good way into winds. With Victarion on top of that, that story doesn't need Arya. We know that Nymeria's pack will be used too, now Arya can warg from a distance but GRRM put in worlds of ice and fire the specific description of children of the forest emerging from the high heart hollow hill and commanding wolves. The brotherhood are in that hill now and Arya is compared to the children a lot. I would think she will take Nymeria's pack herself and carry out the Brotherhoods plan on riverrun. All this likely goes down while Dany is Dancing with Aegon. Leaving enough time for a journey north.

And hey, after it's All finished Arya gets to pull a Cregan Stark. Try and behead all her Kings landing list in one day, if they live.

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We know everyone meets up up north, GRRM said it was like Lord of the Rings that way. So I don't doubt she will reach the North, I don't think she has to go back where she started after Ned died and retrace her steps. I also think she would be wasted in Mereen unless she has an Independant plot. GRRM says Tyrion won't even meet Dany until a good way into winds. With Victarion on top of that, that story doesn't need Arya. We know that Nymeria's pack will be used too, now Arya can warg from a distance but GRRM put in worlds of ice and fire the specific description of children of the forest emerging from the high heart hollow hill and commanding wolves. The brotherhood are in that hill now and Arya is compared to the children a lot. I would think she will take Nymeria's pack herself and carry out the Brotherhoods plan on riverrun. All this likely goes down while Dany is Dancing with Aegon. Leaving enough time for a journey north.

And hey, after it's All finished Arya gets to pull a Cregan Stark. Try and behead all her Kings landing list in one day, if they live.

I don't mean they meet in Meereen, I mean near Lys, where other Hardhome captives are. I don't expect Dany to return to Meereen either, cause it is a waste of her time.

If had to make a gamble that I would never put much money, I'd project Braavos, a little ways so south to have a brief encounter with Dany before she dances with fAegon, and then onto the Riverlands and then to Winterfell as a pathway for Arya. The Hardhome captives might be with her, too.

But that's sad to think about cause that likely means no reunion Jon and sometimes I have to ask myself how much meaner he can be as an author to Arya.

I like the rest of your post though.

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I have felt that if there is anyone that she loves it's Jon. I don't believe in the Gendry pairing. I think even San/San is more legit. At least GRRM has kept that connection throughout the series. Arya/Gendry has lessened but the connection to Jon is still there. That said I don't think he still wants that romance b/w them but as said the love between them matters a lot. I don't think she'll ever be in a romance but perhaps if she had been it would have been with Jon.



I'd have to find it later but I remember in an SSM someone was like are you trying to imply something when you wrote how close Jon/Arya are. And GRRM didn't really deny it. I have heard that he flat out denied Arya/Gendry by someone who used to post on here but that was never confirmed.


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